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do they have any... being serious.
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 338
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9299 Posts
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Ardias
Russian Federation618 Posts
On January 06 2023 08:18 Sent. wrote: Wikipedia says UK has 386 delivered and 227 operational Challengers. Even 30 would be a big help though it would be better if Ukraine received hundreds of tanks belonging to the same type. Leopards and Abramses are probably the only models that could fulfil that dream. Latter one not seem to happen though. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/01/04/ukraine-bradley-fighting-vehicle/ "The administration continues to rule out sending even larger Abrams battle tanks, which weigh 55 tons and rely on a turbine engine that guzzles fuel at a drastic rate, said a second senior administration official. They are also prone to breakdowns and require extensive maintenance expertise." Also I don't know if it's a journalist mistake, or a hint on a M1 variant which could be supplied, but modern M1A2 weights around 65 metric tons (I'm not sure which ones were refered to in the article, since it is, well, US newspaper). 54 metric tons is a basic M1 variant (these probably do not exist at the moment), and 57 t - M1A1 Cold War era ones. On January 06 2023 06:13 maybenexttime wrote: Afaik, NYE is much bigger than Christmas in both Russian and Ukraine, and is considered the main holiday. This is just a PR stunt by Putin. Not sure who is the target of this PR though, I have seen only 4 reactions from Russians as of yet - laugh, hate, confusion or indifference. | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9299 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Copymizer
Denmark2107 Posts
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yoshi245
United States2972 Posts
On January 06 2023 08:25 Ardias wrote: Latter one not seem to happen though. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/01/04/ukraine-bradley-fighting-vehicle/ "The administration continues to rule out sending even larger Abrams battle tanks, which weigh 55 tons and rely on a turbine engine that guzzles fuel at a drastic rate, said a second senior administration official. They are also prone to breakdowns and require extensive maintenance expertise." Also I don't know if it's a journalist mistake, or a hint on a M1 variant which could be supplied, but modern M1A2 weights around 65 metric tons (I'm not sure which ones were refered to in the article, since it is, well, US newspaper). 54 metric tons is a basic M1 variant (these probably do not exist at the moment), and 57 t - M1A1 Cold War era ones. Not sure who is the target of this PR though, I have seen only 4 reactions from Russians as of yet - laugh, hate, confusion or indifference. It varies which version of the M1 is sent. Obviously there's lots of versions from the old M1A1's all the way to M1A2 SEP V3 or V4. I doubt the US is going to send their latest and best tanks even if they finally decided to do it in the future. Most likely M1A1 or M1A2 non-SEP versions. Just to state anecdotal experience of how many M1's do exist. There's clearly thousands of them in the country. But I used to live in Southern California and would go to Las Vegas driving many times over the past several years before moving to Vegas. During the drive at basically the halfway point of the trip being the city of Barstow. Easily visible while driving on the freeway I've seen dozens of M2 Bradleys and M1 Abrams sitting out in the desert collecting dust. They may be being put for transport as there's a railroad nearby. It appears the M1's at Barstow are gone though as I haven't seen them in the past few years, and this post does confirm it. https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/2293758/railops-transports-divested-tanks-and-other-heavy-equipment-from-usmc-to-army/ Seeing as they're Marines tanks being sent to Army depots, they're more or less being retired. I wouldn't be surprised if one day Biden does decide to send M1A1's to Ukraine, he'd probably send these. Still, the logistics issue of sending accompanying fuel and other supplies with the M1's overseas to Ukraine is fairly tough. It's considerably easier to send a Leopard 2 but they're not in exactly a good state either. Would be interesting to see if the UK would send over a couple of Challenger 2 MBTs. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
@plasmidghost: Why do they have to hold it? It has been reduced to a wasteland full of ruins, where nobody can live anyway. The only military value of Bakhmut at this point is, that the Russians are obviously accepting terrible loss ratios when trying to assault it. So holding the spear up for them to impale themselves makes sense. When the battle turns and Ukraine doesn't feel like they can inflict those loss ratios any more, there is no reason to hang around there for longer. Otherwise, they would just be making the same mistake as the Russians in pointlessly throwing away bodies into a meat grinder over no military gain. At least at the moment, those losses serve in purpose because each takes multiple Russians with him. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
There's something specific to be gained from capturing Bakhmut. To put it simply, the value of the city lies in the option to use it as an outpost to continue pushing in various directions. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14127 Posts
If Russia continues the attack through the hole in the line it has punched over months it will be flanked and cut off very easily. I do think that abrums will be unreasonable for this war. However the depth of Bradley reserves is deep and will be enough maybe to last through the war. I think this is another rung on the escalation ladder for arms being delivered. France has the best all terrain military in the world and those stocks of abrums I still think can be used in trade for other soviet stock in the world. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On January 06 2023 23:58 Magic Powers wrote: Bakhmut is not irrelevant to Ukraine at all. Russia isn't investing all of this into a city of little value. We can only say that they could pick better targets other than Bakhmut. There's something specific to be gained from capturing Bakhmut. To put it simply, the value of the city lies in the option to use it as an outpost to continue pushing in various directions. Yeah and it being the home of Europe's largest salt mine. That is a major reason why Bakhmut is so vital, and perhaps why Wagner wants it. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On January 07 2023 00:17 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Yeah and it being the home of Europe's largest salt mine. That is a major reason why Bakhmut is so vital, and perhaps why Wagner wants it. Because the moment they control it, they get +7 salt every turn! | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22367 Posts
Its a lot more about domestic Russian dickwaving then it is about real strategic value. And as others have said Ukraine is just there to oblige the Russian desire to kill themselves. If they can no longer hold the ground they will pull back to another defensive line and repeat the process until Russian are exhausted and pushed back again. | ||
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Deleted User 173346
16169 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22367 Posts
On January 07 2023 01:32 plasmidghost wrote: If that were to be an actual issue I would expect it to be disabled before they have to pull back. My big worry about Bakhmut as things get more dire for Ukraine there is that should it collapse and Wagner seize the salt and gypsum mines there, they can use that to finance a ton of their operations and I don't know what price Ukraine is willing to pay to prevent that | ||
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Yurie
12087 Posts
On January 07 2023 01:32 plasmidghost wrote: My big worry about Bakhmut as things get more dire for Ukraine there is that should it collapse and Wagner seize the salt and gypsum mines there, they can use that to finance a ton of their operations and I don't know what price Ukraine is willing to pay to prevent that How would they build up the required infrastructure again? They are easily within HIMARS range and at constant risk of Ukraine doing a push that brings normal artillery back in range. Only if they get a lot of ground outside the city as well would it ever become relevant. | ||
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Oleo
Netherlands280 Posts
On January 06 2023 23:28 plasmidghost wrote: Bakhmut situation is getting worse. Where does Ukraine go from here? What can they do to hold the city? Worsened? He is talking about Bakhmutske which is a small town(?) northeast of Bakhmut thats already in the redzone on liveuamap. This getting worse doesnt really seem to be much of a big deal to the overall picture around Bakhmut itself. Maybe they locally got pushed from one defense line to the next or something at whatever it cost the Russians. Ukraine just keeps doing what they have been doing for a while, kill more fascist pigs. Black circle is Bakhmutske, green circle is the Knauf plant. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9tEKCuN.png) | ||
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