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On October 07 2024 17:13 KwarK wrote:
If the people aren’t starving to death you can’t call it a famine. Just like if the people aren’t dying of the plague you can’t call it pestilence.
On October 07 2024 09:56 KwarK wrote:
Gaza is experiencing that classic famine population boom.
On October 07 2024 15:45 KwarK wrote:
Additionally there are a number of famines around the world right now and you seem to be laser focused on this one where the people have enough food. It’s almost as if your interest in famines is not so much about whether people are starving but rather whether you can blame Jews for it.
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United States42706 Posts
Different things can be true at different times without contradiction and I think deep down you probably know that.
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On August 01 2025 18:41 KwarK wrote:
Different things can be true at different times without contradiction and I think deep down you probably know that.
Maybe it's my fault then. Israel had no intention of starving Gaza at all and then they read my posts from october and went "You know what, Neb makes a good point, we should do this"
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Austria4112 Posts
Keeping a close watch on this development, as this is extremely important. According to Wiki there are currently 154+ deaths from starvation. The situation could spiral out of control unless Israel intervenes quickly and increases aid manifold.
The ICC has found Israel's leadership responsible for the widespread starvation, which is part of why they've put out arrest warrants on Netanyahu and others (legally binding for 125 countries including France and UK).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine
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On August 01 2025 18:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2025 18:41 KwarK wrote:
Different things can be true at different times without contradiction and I think deep down you probably know that. Maybe it's my fault then. Israel had no intention of starving Gaza at all and then they read my posts from october and went "You know what, Neb makes a good point, we should do this"
It's not all your fault, it's all Hamas' fault.
You can tell when something is all Hamas' fault because it always starts with Israel doing something terrible.
Nah, I lie. That was last year. This year as defending Israel has gotten more difficult we're going for the 'Hamas has its share of the blame as well as Israel, for the things that Israel chooses to do' because we are going for a nice balanced view of things.
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Let's do a nice little timeline so even the most deliberately obtuse "but is this Israel's intent" can review and get back to us.
1. In January, Trump "negotiated" a 3 phase ceasefire that lasted until March, during this time Gaza was flooded with food
2. Netyanahu, who signed the 2 phase ceasefire which was supposed to conclude with the end of the war decided to not honor it and to resume hostilities by launching air strikes, ending aid and electricity and more. They cited that Hamas didn't want to "renegotiate and extend the ceasefire", which is basically going back on the deal that they signed, a deal that would have brought all hostages home and ended the war that Hamas was honoring
3. Since there was a ceasefire, Gaza was flooded with food, people had supplies, after the ceasefire was broken by Israel they stopped all aid, only after international pressure they formed the GHF with American mercenaries and fundamental Christians
4. GHF has created 4 aid distribution posts, compared to 200 that were there when UN was distributing aid, 4 points for 2 million people who were supposed to get to those points by walking through an active battlefield
5. Israel has since the inception of this organization killed more the 1000 people, many of them children at those posts, causing people to not want to go there
6. As time went by and the aid that was flooded during the ceasefire ran out, the famine started taking it's toll, and the pictures and videos started to come out
This is a timeline I got from this interview from a liberal Zionist who spent October 7th in a safe room in his Kibutz, who's friend is one of the hostages and with whom I align 100 % when it comes to his views of this war. No issue with dismantling of Hezbolah, no issue with responding and hitting Hamas in Gaza, at least in the first few weeks and months. Everything after is a disaster.
This is all corroborated by statements from Israeli officials very clearly stating they are using hunger as a tactic, citing "Hamas stealing food and selling it on the black market for insane prices".
You know why the prices were insane? Because there was no food. Once again, Israel created a problem and then used it as a justification for terrible shit they are doing.
Again, I encourage KwarK and RJ to go and look at the pictures of the starving and malnourished children and explain how this is OK.
On August 01 2025 18:24 KwarK wrote:
Take Sudan for example. Famine there is orders of magnitude worse and Israel isn’t supplying millions of tons of food to Sudan but nobody blames them because they’re not involved. Whereas Gaza has far less hunger and Israel provides far more food but they are still blamed because they’re judged by some to be responsible for the underlying food instability. And if they’re responsible for the instability then anything short of fully providing relief will put blood on their hands.
This is honestly disgusting to read.
There are and have been since March hundreds of trucks of food waiting that Israel refuses to let in. Sudan has other belligerents that are causing the famine there. Here, it is caused by Israel replacing 200 UN aid points by 4 of their own, results being starving fucking children...
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What I don't understand is if Israel has no compunction about starving and massacring Gazans now, what makes people think they acted any different just a year ago?
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Finland had an interesting week related to recognising Palestine. Firstly, our foreign minister participated in the New York conference and signed the declaration that supports the two-state solution and recognition of Palestine. Afterwards, two parties from our government stated that they were not consulted about the declaration, even tho the government's program says that Finland supports the two-state solution. Others claim that all parties were informed and agreed to sign the declaration
Then our president was asked about recognising Palestine, and he said that he would sign the statement if it reached his desk. This was a bit surprising as the president and the government lead foreign policy in cooperation, and usually, most statements, especially by the president, are made in line with consensus. This, of course, made the two opposing parties claim that the president was acting outside of his role. Again, there were claims that all parties were informed about the president's position before his response to the press.
The opposition then presented the idea that if the government is not going to recognise Palestine, the parliament could push for a report about the policy with a recognition statement, which would be voted on. The parliament as a whole is likely to support recognition. The speaker of the parliament, a former leader of one of the parties opposing recognition, openly opposed the idea as a foreign policy being up to the government, not parliament.
Finally, yesterday our prime minister told the press that the government is not currently working on the policy but will clarify its policy before the UN General Assembly in September. This set a very public deadline for the government, which is a bit weird when two parties are making it clear that they do not support recognising Palestine. The parliament and the government are currently on their summer break, so little is going to happen before September.
The Christian Democrats will leave the government if Finland recognises Palestine. However, they are so small that the government could still have a majority. Far right, the Finns Party is less likely to leave, but their polling has become abysmal during their time in the government. They reached 20% in the last parliamentary election, and the previous poll from last month gave them 11.8%. If they leave the government, there is likely to be a parliamentary election. They could also push for some conditions on the recognition and changes to other policies.
If Finland does not recognise Palestine in September, the president, prime minister, and foreign minister, who are all from the same party, will look quite bad. However, it seems unlikely that they would lose that much support to other parties. Nevertheless, the government is likely to face some sort of crisis over this.
It is weird how much this issue can impact even smaller countries. Especially interesting is how deep the Christian wish for the end times can be outside of North America. This also shows how much any international debate can alter the position, especially in countries that try to follow the trends in Western countries. This support shown for recognition is not because there is a strong belief in it being the right thing to do, but out of fear of being left outside of the others planning to recognise Palestine. This situation is vile considering that the focus is so clearly on everything other than starving Palestinians.
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The BBC compiled info on kids getting shot in Gaza
"Obviously Hamas is hiding their headquarters in these kids brains and hearts and shooting them is the only way to stop Hamas. Only members of Hamas would have a problem with this" — Israel probably
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So the German government has now stated that based on intelligence findings, they assume that between 50 and 100 % of aid brought into Gaza is stolen by Hamas. Source: trust me bro! Cause the UN has found zero evidence of any of it and still 6000 trucks with aid are waiting on the border. But Israel has allowed airdrops, how generous...
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On August 02 2025 11:04 Counc1l1 wrote:
What I don't understand is if Israel has no compunction about starving and massacring Gazans now, what makes people think they acted any different just a year ago?
The political situation was different.
Iran was not tested yet, Bibi's political coalition was different at various points in time and US was not openly part of something like the GHF.
That and some boundaries regarding Gaza take time to be expanded.
When you want to accustom the wider word to ethnic cleansing you have to do it slowly.
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On August 03 2025 02:37 GreenHorizons wrote:The BBC compiled info on kids getting shot in Gaza https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1951203223689216037" Obviously Hamas is hiding their headquarters in these kids brains and hearts and shooting them is the only way to stop Hamas. Only members of Hamas would have a problem with this" — Israel probably
Of course Israel has to take its share of the blame for shooting these children in the head, but don't forget Hamas. Its a bit racist to just focus on the Jews isn't it?
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United States42706 Posts
On August 03 2025 03:22 Jockmcplop wrote:Of course Israel has to take its share of the blame for shooting these children in the head, but don't forget Hamas. Its a bit racist to just focus on the Jews isn't it?
I don’t think anyone is on the other side to you in whatever argument you’re currently having. The IDF are absolutely not suited to the occupation mission they’ve been tasked with and are doing a bad job of preventing these atrocities and holding themselves accountable for them. It’s awful.
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United States42706 Posts
On August 02 2025 11:04 Counc1l1 wrote:
What I don't understand is if Israel has no compunction about starving and massacring Gazans now, what makes people think they acted any different just a year ago?
Even if the political goals within Israel were identical a year ago the situation both on the ground, and internationally, were completely different. Aid distribution a year ago was done differently and Biden’s administration was different to Trump’s.
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Northern Ireland25393 Posts
On August 03 2025 03:22 Jockmcplop wrote:Of course Israel has to take its share of the blame for shooting these children in the head, but don't forget Hamas. Its a bit racist to just focus on the Jews isn't it?
They’re just taking ‘you have to reach hearts and minds to ease this conflict’ a bit too literally
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On August 03 2025 04:24 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2025 11:04 Counc1l1 wrote:
What I don't understand is if Israel has no compunction about starving and massacring Gazans now, what makes people think they acted any different just a year ago? Even if the political goals within Israel were identical a year ago the situation both on the ground, and internationally, were completely different. Aid distribution a year ago was done differently and Biden’s administration was different to Trump’s.
I think Israel's implicit goal even 1 year ago was to ethnically cleanse Gazans, so I think not much has fundamentally changed about Israel's approach.
I agree that under Trump's lawless and insane administration, Israeli politicians felt that they could act with greater impunity in collectively punishing Gazans and this likely explains in part the increasingly dire situation that we're currently seeing.
However, I think because of how much worse the Trump administration is on almost every conceivable issue compared to Biden's administration, people seem to underestimate what Israel was already allowed to get away with. What follows isn't really intended to rebut the assertion you made, but I think it might be useful context for people seeing this.
Even in 2024, Israel blocked 83% of food aid entering into Gaza according to NRC https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/september/israels-siege-now-blocks-83-of-food-aid-reaching-gaza-new-data-reveals. In 2024, Israel had already destroyed a substantial percentage of homes, hospitals, water treatment plants, etc. in Gaza.
The Biden administration allowed Israel to destroy basic infrastructure in Gaza required to sustain human life there. That created the background for this current crisis.
The excuse supporters of Israel usually made for this destruction was that Hamas embeds itself in civilian infrastructure and uses human shields. To my mind, what they could not seem to convincingly explain is whether such practices by Hamas were prevalent enough to actually explain this level of destruction, and whether targetting places like hospitals is proportionate compared to their military objectives. For example, IDF claimed Hamas had a command center under Al-Shifa hospital, but whether a command center actually existed under the hospital still seems to be a matter of dispute. Nevertheless, the hospital was attacked and mass graves were found nearby, according to the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c511k1nqx81o.
At that point, these arguments about how the damage Israel is causing is because of Hamas seemed like a cynical excuse used to justify nearly infinite destruction. I recently posted in this thread an article from Ground News that essentially said (according to analysis by USAID) that there is little to no evidence of systematic stealing of food aid in Gaza (the excuse Israel uses for providing disastrously insufficient aid to Gazans). Link: https://ground.news/article/no-evidence-of-massive-hamas-theft-of-gaza-aid . The GHF shootings by US contractors and IDF were initially blamed on Hamas, until whistle blowers admitted that IDF officers were commanding soldiers to kill as they pleased. The fact that Hamas keeps being used as a convenient excuse to justify the atrocities happening seems all too convenient, and when we realize that Hamas might not fully explain such atrocities, people seem to just move on to the next topic.
And even in 2024, we already saw signs of such dehumanization when NYT and other news sources reported IDF soldiers shooting little children in their heads (single bullet wounds to the head), or a British doctor who testified to hearing reports from chlidren of drones patrolling Gazan ruins to shoot them (Link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7893vpy2gqo ). Journalists & aid workers were also being murdered in record numbers in Gaza, or blocked from entering altogether. Soldiers who committed war crimes in Gaza were not punished either. All of that was happening even before Trump became president.
Also, serious genocide historians were already concerned about this war being genocidal in 2024. The most famous, perhaps, being Omer Bartov. Example: https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/19/Tv/video/amanpour-bartov-omer
I'm not saying that your comment is wrong that the current geopolitical situation explains why the situation has worsened, but I feel it's important to mention that many of the horrors we are seeing were already being expressed in a slightly more restrained way even before the Trump presidency. Finally, we don't really have much evidence that the Biden administration would have done much to stop Israeli atrocities. Biden said at some point that Rafah was a "red line" but then did basically nothing about it when the IDF moved into that area.
Note: Made some edits to this post a number of times, sorry to anyone who saw the post before I made my last edit
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United States42706 Posts
On August 03 2025 07:35 Counc1l1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2025 04:24 KwarK wrote:On August 02 2025 11:04 Counc1l1 wrote:
What I don't understand is if Israel has no compunction about starving and massacring Gazans now, what makes people think they acted any different just a year ago? Even if the political goals within Israel were identical a year ago the situation both on the ground, and internationally, were completely different. Aid distribution a year ago was done differently and Biden’s administration was different to Trump’s. I think Israel's implicit goal even 1 year ago was to ethnically cleanse Gazans, so I think not much has fundamentally changed about Israel's approach. I agree that under Trump's lawless and insane administration, Israeli politicians felt that they could act with greater impunity in collectively punishing Gazans and this likely explains in part the increasingly dire situation that we're currently seeing. However, I think because of how much worse the Trump administration is on almost every conceivable issue compared to Biden's administration, people seem to underestimate what Israel was already allowed to get away with. What follows isn't really intended to rebut the assertion you made, but I think it might be useful context for people seeing this. Even in 2024, Israel blocked 83% of food aid entering into Gaza according to NRC https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/september/israels-siege-now-blocks-83-of-food-aid-reaching-gaza-new-data-reveals. In 2024, Israel had already destroyed a substantial percentage of homes, hospitals, water treatment plants, etc. in Gaza. The Biden administration allowed Israel to destroy basic infrastructure in Gaza required to sustain human life there. That created the background for this current crisis. The excuse supporters of Israel usually made for this destruction was that Hamas embeds itself in civilian infrastructure and uses human shields. To my mind, what they could not seem to convincingly explain is whether such practices by Hamas were prevalent enough to actually explain this level of destruction, and whether targetting places like hospitals is proportionate compared to their military objectives. For example, IDF claimed Hamas had a command center under Al-Shifa hospital, but whether a command center actually existed under the hospital still seems to be a matter of dispute. Nevertheless, the hospital was attacked and mass graves were found nearby, according to the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c511k1nqx81o. At that point, these arguments about how the damage Israel is causing is because of Hamas seemed like a cynical excuse used to justify nearly infinite destruction. I recently posted in this thread an article from Ground News that essentially said (according to analysis by USAID) that there is little to no evidence of systematic stealing of food aid in Gaza (the excuse Israel uses for providing disastrously insufficient aid to Gazans). Link: https://ground.news/article/no-evidence-of-massive-hamas-theft-of-gaza-aid . The GHF shootings by US contractors and IDF were initially blamed on Hamas, until whistle blowers admitted that IDF officers were commanding soldiers to kill as they pleased. The fact that Hamas keeps being used as a convenient excuse to justify the atrocities happening seems all too convenient, and when we realize that Hamas might not fully explain such atrocities, people seem to just move on to the next topic. And even in 2024, we already saw signs of such dehumanization when NYT and other news sources reported IDF soldiers shooting little children in their heads (single bullet wounds to the head), or a British doctor who testified to hearing reports from chlidren of drones patrolling Gazan ruins to shoot them (Link: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7893vpy2gqo ). Journalists & aid workers were also being murdered in record numbers in Gaza, or blocked from entering altogether. Soldiers who committed war crimes in Gaza were not punished either. All of that was happening even before Trump became president. Also, serious genocide historians were already concerned about this war being genocidal in 2024. The most famous, perhaps, being Omer Bartov. Example: https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/19/Tv/video/amanpour-bartov-omerI'm not saying that your comment is wrong that the current geopolitical situation explains why the situation has worsened, but I feel it's important to mention that many of the horrors we are seeing were already being expressed in a slightly more restrained way even before the Trump presidency. Finally, we don't really have much evidence that the Biden administration would have done much to stop Israeli atrocities. Biden said at some point that Rafah was a "red line" but then did basically nothing about it when the IDF moved into that area. Note: Made some edits to this post a number of times, sorry to anyone who saw the post before I made my last edit
There’s a lot in your post I agree with. Plenty of documented IDF atrocities. Hamas do imbed themselves in civilian infrastructure but the IDF are showing little concern for preserving it anymore. There’s that quote about the problem with using the army as police is that they tend to decide that the people are the enemy.
A lot of Palestine discussion amounts to people disagreeing on just how many “very”s to put before the word “bad”. People might disagree on whether civilian infrastructure was intentionally targeted or if they just didn’t much care whether it was hit but it doesn’t make a huge amount of difference in the end.
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When multiple countries decided to finally use the Trumpstein absence in the matter and to do something for Gaza... Hamas put a turd in the punchbowl.
Multiple countries wanted to formaly consider Palestine a sovereign nation and use harsh wordings towards israel .. which is symbolic.. as well provide airdrops to Gaza which is actively good.
Hamas decided to release some propaganda hostage videos, reminding everyone that they threw away 17 years of nation building for one usless massacre, which mostly allowed the Bibi-Killsquad to do EVERYTHING... and made clear that they rather let the suffering continue, than giving up their weapons or the remaining hostages.
My position at the moment is, that migration from europe with apardheid and racism sucessfully build bridgeheads, parallel societies and ultimatively overthrows any 2-State solution with natives by making natives and "first nations" obsolete.
400 years of "tit for tat" massacres in the Amercian history, in multiple wars and from basicly all fractions:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_massacres_in_North_America
I still think Gaza and Westbank should be annexed by israel, Police should replace military in executive functions and palis be given an israeli passport - or the chance to move to a country of their choosing.
Gaza needs a de-hamas-i-fication, and the mostly young kids need a chance in their lifetime.. Not this shithole.
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Israel is already governing most of Palestinian territories.
While there is a lot of "disagreements" weather what is happening in Gaza can be called genocide, there is much less disagreement weather what Israel is doing to their Palestinian citizens is Apartheid.
It is, they are second class citizens, they are often not allowed to leave, every last bit of the space they are allowed in is being shrunk, they have Israeli soldiers and policemen harassing them on daily basis, often they will change the rules on them in order to fuck with them and make them walk tens of kilometers purely out of spite.
These people aren't the one who fucked up the negotiations. They are the exact people that Israel says it wants, peaceful people who never took up arms and are just trying to keep on living in their towns and villages, but Israel has other plans, to anyone who is willing to watch a documentary or a report from basically 2010 onward it is clear that Israel has a policy to make their lives so miserable that they have only 2 options, leave or lash out.
Calling for annexation is basically condemning Palestinians to this life, it's not fair as a mater of humanity or as a matter of international law.
Saying that Hamas should give up their weapons is also incredibly naive, obviously as soon as they did that they would be either killed or dissapeared forever (and killed) by the IDF, they aren't suicidal. They have dumb, maximalist goals because they don't care about their or the lives of their civilian population, saying that Hamas being bad invalidates the absolutely correct goal to recognize Palestine as a state and push for a 2 state solution is morally confused.
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Yes Israel does what every colonizing migrant power from europe did in history.
And everything what western racists fear, what migration will do to them.. because they totally would.
But no amount of "international law" with no bite, no amount of booger-Welded water pipe rockets or Kalashnikovs and Knife attacks will bring victory.
Hamas must lay down it's weapons - they won't. Probably 50% of all remaining Hamas leadership is Israeli intelligence moles rooting for agression to their own continous destruction.
The allegations of well known "Sept 7 plans" by Israeli Government stil stands. I totally could believe that Netanyahu let it happen or even helped it move along, so that he can be the guy who finally drives the arabs into the sea... 98% of the way.. since you always need some closeted boogie-man terrorist to be the "Strong Man".
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EPT
