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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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United States42830 Posts
On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that.
For a poster who didn’t know about the missile attacks an hour ago you’re very definite on these things. Stating them as absolute facts and declaring that they must be true because “nobody can disprove” them.
Wouldn’t your argument be completely destroyed by “actually the effectiveness of a military force is reduced by the total destruction of its communication capabilities, nobody can disprove that”.
Edit: it feels like you’ve over corrected. Last page I criticized you for prefacing your opinion with a declaration of ignorance of the subject. What I had in mind was either addressing the ignorance or keeping the ignorant opinion to yourself. In this latest post you’ve pivoted to keeping the ignorance, still sharing the ignorant opinion, but skipping the admission of your ignorance.
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I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far.
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United States42830 Posts
On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far.
That feels like a bit of a straw man. Who was arguing that it defeated Iran once and for all? You’ve certainly got them in a bind but I don’t know who it is.
Also given the supply chain pager attack and the follow up radio attack I would assume that they’ll probably not just buy a crate of pagers from some guy who just showed up with them. That feels like the one thing they wouldn’t do.
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On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that.
Ahm... Are you serious?
They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days.
I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder.
You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that?
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On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far.
If they aren't going to bulk order to Hezbollah HQ anymore I guess Israel will just have to boobytrap consumer electronics en masse and blame Hezbollah for using the civilians Israel blows up as human shields...
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On September 20 2024 22:58 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far. That feels like a bit of a straw man. Who was arguing that it defeated Iran once and for all? You’ve certainly got them in a bind but I don’t know who it is. Also given the supply chain pager attack and the follow up radio attack I would assume that they’ll probably not just buy a crate of pagers from some guy who just showed up with them. That feels like the one thing they wouldn’t do.
Yes its a strawman. That's what happens when I get sarcastic, I'll admit it.
However, I'll note it was in response to some pretty big exaggerations coming out about the effectiveness of the attack. A recent post claimed that it had 'significantly neutered' Hezbollah. I would suggest the continuation of these missile attacks at short notice would suggest that they aren't, in fact, significantly neutered.
Pagers are convenient, but i would imagine most Hezbollah fighters have easy access to an encrypted email they can use in a pinch while they sort out their new devices whatever they happen to be.
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On September 20 2024 23:04 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:58 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far. That feels like a bit of a straw man. Who was arguing that it defeated Iran once and for all? You’ve certainly got them in a bind but I don’t know who it is. Also given the supply chain pager attack and the follow up radio attack I would assume that they’ll probably not just buy a crate of pagers from some guy who just showed up with them. That feels like the one thing they wouldn’t do. Yes its a strawman. That's what happens when I get sarcastic, I'll admit it. However, I'll note it was in response to some pretty big exaggerations coming out about the effectiveness of the attack. A recent post claimed that it had 'significantly neutered' Hezbollah. I would suggest the continuation of these missile attacks at short notice would suggest that they aren't, in fact, significantly neutered. Pagers are convenient, but i would imagine most Hezbollah fighters have easy access to an encrypted email they can use in a pinch while they sort out their new devices whatever they happen to be.
Plus, paper also still exists to this very day. Military makes broad use of that old and outdated tech. Strange, innit? Like how can paper communicate things properly? How can it allow for coordinated missile attacks? People have clocks? Ridiculous.
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United States42830 Posts
On September 20 2024 23:04 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far. If they aren't going to bulk order to Hezbollah HQ anymore I guess Israel will just have to boobytrap consumer electronics en masse and blame Hezbollah for using the civilians Israel blows up as human shields...
It must be a real time saver to get mad about these things before they happen.
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On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that?
Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it?
They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely.
We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke.
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On September 20 2024 23:09 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 23:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 20 2024 22:58 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far. That feels like a bit of a straw man. Who was arguing that it defeated Iran once and for all? You’ve certainly got them in a bind but I don’t know who it is. Also given the supply chain pager attack and the follow up radio attack I would assume that they’ll probably not just buy a crate of pagers from some guy who just showed up with them. That feels like the one thing they wouldn’t do. Yes its a strawman. That's what happens when I get sarcastic, I'll admit it. However, I'll note it was in response to some pretty big exaggerations coming out about the effectiveness of the attack. A recent post claimed that it had 'significantly neutered' Hezbollah. I would suggest the continuation of these missile attacks at short notice would suggest that they aren't, in fact, significantly neutered. Pagers are convenient, but i would imagine most Hezbollah fighters have easy access to an encrypted email they can use in a pinch while they sort out their new devices whatever they happen to be. Plus, paper also still exists to this very day. Military makes broad use of that old and outdated tech. Strange, innit? Like how can paper communicate things properly? How can it allow for coordinated missile attacks? People have clocks? Ridiculous.
There will always be a workaround.
Its probably a bit of a nightmare to try and organize, in the same way as when i have a really bad day at work, but people are significantly overestimating the overall effect its going to have.
If you believe Hezbollah about their numbers, about 1% of their fighting force was injured and two of their means of communication has been taken out, so they have to find a workaround, which will probably mean their top guys don't want to risk exposing themselves while they find a secure way to communicate.
Realistically, that is the effect of the attack.
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United States42830 Posts
On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke.
Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as worthwhile. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it?
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On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke.
Killing/Hurting opposing soldiers is a goal on it's own.
Thats assuming nothing else was affected, which is doubtfull. No matter if rockets fly again or not.
No one was arguing for terrorizing a population and just about everyone has said that this was most likely a war crime (which has nothing to do with how effective or not it was).
Also you have proven over and over again that you have no clue about what is or was going on in Lebanon and/or Hesbollah. I would recommend educating yourself before being your usual holier than thou self.
By your reasoning Israel should actually have started another ground invasion, it would have plenty of justification to do so and would have been less likely to commit warcrimes. This was probably the in reality "lesser evil" when it comes to civilian casaulties despite most likely being illegal.
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On September 20 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:
I mean, yeah... we can merry go round in a never ending circle of supposed and or imagined insinuations and allusions or things that the other never said (again, you paraphrase me utterly wrong and oversimplify/attribute motifs that were/are not there).
Actually that was just me setting a trap, I put in direct/very close quotes from you and then added something about how we could tell that you thought that even though you didn't say it. That was designed to get your usual bullshit about how I'm making things up in response, which you went for.
On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:
Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make.
[...]
The part where you were saying things that you truly believe, like Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, Palestinians are scary people with evil values, and maybe it makes sense that Israel has to deal with them in some way, that was a "new" conversation in the context of this thread
Stir up trouble:
On August 26 2024 20:44 PremoBeats wrote:
Why aren’t Jordan and Egypt taking them? [...] certainly not because Palestinians wherever they found refuge stirred up trouble, right?
Problem people:
On September 07 2024 16:54 PremoBeats wrote:
It does not necessarily follow that Palestine needs to be ethnically cleansed from Israel’s POV simply because they have issues with the Palestinians.
Maybe Israel has to deal with them:
On September 01 2024 17:05 PremoBeats wrote:
I simply point out that other nations have reservations [editor's note: about Palestinians] and that there are reasons for that and that the same reasons could apply to Israel as well.
Scary people:
On August 25 2024 19:13 PremoBeats wrote:
Alternate reasons (editor's note: for why Israel is doing this campaign):
- Focus on security and self-defense of the Israeli government, especially in response to continuous terrorist attacks as well as one larger scale incident.
On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
I am not against the idea that the Palestinians get a country of their own. But security concers by neighbouring states (not only Israel) have to be taken account. There probably needs to be a confederation for the West Bank with Jordan and of Gaza with Egypt where they and Israel have supervising functions.
Evil values:
On August 26 2024 20:44 PremoBeats wrote:
I said that everyday life in Palestine is incompatible with Western values, nothing more.
On September 11 2024 02:12 PremoBeats wrote:
I am using a value judgment, of course. I am neither foolish, nor cowardly enough to not say that I think that some cultures or societies and their laws are more moral or humane.
Hopefully (just kidding) this is enough to demonstrate that you whine about misrepresentations as a debate tactic to avoid discussing issues and not because of anything I'm doing or not doing.
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On September 20 2024 23:33 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 23:13 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:59 Velr wrote:On September 20 2024 22:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish. Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that. Ahm... Are you serious? They just lost a ton of their pagers and other communication tools. So the ability to communicate is/was severly impacted for at least a few days. I also don't need to be a rocket scientist to know that preparing, transporting and firing rockets when you just recently lost your hand or got otherwise injured is way harder. You are actively trying to paint this as useless. It was very cruel, very likely in warcrime territory, but useless when it comes to hurting Hesbollah? What could ever make you think that? Reality. Reality makes me thing of the attack as pointless. Objective reality, factual provable reality. Not feelings, but reality. It's the best tool there is to prove bad assumption wrong. Can you provide counter evidence? Where is it? They have long resumed their attacks, nothing has changed about their attacks. No Israeli lives have been saved. What was the point if Israel is no better protected now than before? When no lives are being saved? A few days worth of nothing, great accomplishment. Lovely. We're arguing in favor of terrorizing a population for this? What a joke. Killing/Hurting opposing soldiers is a goal on it's own. Thats assuming nothing else was affected, which is doubtfull. No matter if rockets fly again or not. No one was arguing for terrorizing a population and just about everyone has said that this was most likely a war crime (which has nothing to do with how effective or not it was). Also you have proven over and over again that you have no clue about what is or was going on in Lebanon and/or Hesbollah. I would recommend educating yourself before being your usual holier than thou self. By your reasoning Israel should actually have started another ground invasion, it would have plenty of justification to do so and would have been less likely to commit warcrimes. This was probably the in reality "lesser evil" when it comes to civilian casaulties despite most likely being illegal.
Who exactly has called this a war crime? You? Has anyone else here called it a war crime?
No seriously, anyone?
My reasoning is Israel should stop killing Palestinians, not invade Lebanon. Hezbollah has promised to keep attacking as long as Israel continues the massacre. We have good reason to believe them. Israel could withdraw from Gaza and stop the aggression but the administration doesn't view Palestinians as humans so they continue.
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If you’re familiar with the scientific method, you’re aware that acting as if your claim isn’t falsifiable isn’t the ironclad defense you may think it is
(Coincidentally, acting as if your value/belief systems aren’t falsifiable isn’t an ironclad defense for them for the same reason)
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On September 20 2024 16:23 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:
There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel.
Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone. People don't want to talk about these facts. I tried several times, even with Nebuchad. Arabs are in the police, they are teachers, servce in court and basically every layer of Israeli society. An Arab judge put a former Jewish PM behind bars. They don't want to hear it. And nice observation on Nebuchad's contradiction in that other post, which wasn't followed up by a plausible explanation until now. On September 19 2024 09:31 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 07:02 Acrofales wrote:On September 19 2024 03:54 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 03:50 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 03:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 03:17 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2024 02:57 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
Of course. I've already said this is preferable to flattening a whole area and starving the population to death.
But was it only Hezbollah fighters holding these devices? Does Israel know the holder of every device?
Its like a suicide bomber blowing up an embassy.
I've always seen that referred to as a terrorist attack.
Its targeted, but its a terrorist attack. What's your standard here? If one drop of innocent blood was shed then it's terrorism? No, terrorism is about intention and method, not the identity of victims. According to the FBI: The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government or civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives. They could have chosen to kill soldiers in a military setting. Instead they chose a method that would make people explode in public around the civilian population. Fear and intimidation is what this was about. They haven't made a dent in Hezbollah's ability to fight. What military setting are you imagining Hezbollah being in? Well apparently they do nothing but fire rockets into Israel so wherever they are doing that? Please let me know if I’m misunderstanding because I’m not trying to straw man you. Are you saying Israel is only allowed to kill them at the location at which rockets are being fired during the firing of the rockets? That’d be an unusually strict rules of engagement for a war. Last I checked, military on leave, enjoying a quiet evening with their family, or doing the groceries, or at the funeral of their fellow soldier, were not legitimate military targets... I’m probably the wrong person to make this argument to because I think all war is basically criminal and that people shouldn’t do it. Just to clarify: You probably talk about offensive wars here, right?
Regarding colonial expansionism, let's propose a thought experiment. A UN from a different timeline in which the UN actually does things steps in and guarantees the borders of Palestine against Israel incursions and settlements. It deploys peacekeepers on the border to act as a tripwire and the IDF does not touch Gaza or the West Bank again. The UN force internally polices the area and curtail the activities of Hamas/Hezbollah etc. Is Israel unhappy in this scenario?
I don't think it is, I think in this scenario Israel is very happy to just be left the fuck alone by Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas. Sure, they can't get any more Palestinian land but they also don't have to deal with rockets.
Israel has repeatedly traded land for peace in the past. They're willing to do so. The context of the Gaza conflict is that Hamas have zero interest in peace because their existence is predicated on conflict. It'd be like trying to talk a fish out of water. They're a foe that Israel literally cannot make peace with.
This is what I have been saying all along. Israel as a whole does not gain anything from the continuation of this conflict. Given that Netanyahu - out of inner political rationalizations - might be interested in prolonging the war, Israel would be perfectly fine if all fighting stops tomorrow. On September 17 2024 04:50 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2024 04:20 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 22:23 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values. I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine. You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize. Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make. And yes you're right I don't know the protestors' motivations, I wasn't there. So, do you reckon I'm wrong? They're not here because they think killing people is bad? I pointed out that it would be stupid to assume that there can mostly be one reason (Islamophobia... like you did in 6174) that makes people not care about Palestinians. I showed, that other reasons can also exist, even for majority countries/governments that share the same faith, to tackle that idiotic notion of Islamophobia. There can be a multitude of reasons like safety concerns, other worries or the simple fact that these Palestinians are collateral in a war, that has an extremely low civilian casualty rate. I know what these people talked with me about. And they were talking about things that don't interest you/which you avoid replying to. Anyway: You know what to do, if you want to address the facts and numbers that shape the reality of this conflict, instead of beating around the bush with these nonsensical side-topics. The part where you say stuff that you don't really believe and then you pretend you're holding your own through stalling and rhetoric I'm not going back to, it was taking too much time. The part where you were saying things that you truly believe, like Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, Palestinians are scary people with evil values, and maybe it makes sense that Israel has to deal with them in some way, that was a "new" conversation in the context of this thread and it was at least worth exploring, in my opinion, but only insofar as you don't walk it back whenever it feels convenient to you. I can understand dishonest tactics when you're saying something you don't really believe, but in support of your actual position it's just weird. It is fascinating how you are able to perfectly deduce someone's intentions, motives and beliefs when the person you talk about told you differently several times. Truly magnificent! I mean, yeah... we can merry go round in a never ending circle of supposed and or imagined insinuations and allusions or things that the other never said (again, you paraphrase me utterly wrong and oversimplify/attribute motifs that were/are not there). OR, we can discuss the actual data and numbers as well as the contexts of this conflict. Which - funny enough, not a single person that argued anti-Israel in this thread actually does. Not one of the several people that engaged with me so far, was able to explain how a genocide is possible given the casualty rate we have. Not one person did engage with the fact that the casualty rate was not controlled for natural deaths. That the casualty rate was not controlled for people killed by Hamas. That 10k casualties have not been IDed (did they even exist?). That the casualty rate is immensely low in comparison to similar conflict zones. That there are impossible data behaviors like combatant resurrections as well as women and children casualties exceeding the total numbers of deaths in certain periods. Not one person who declared forced starvation addressed the fact that less than 2% of the trucks were prohibited entry or why. No one addressed the fact that 650 trucks were waiting post-inspection at Kerem Shalom. Or that 50% more aid than necessary entered Gaza as well as Hamas having no more space to store humanitarian aid. Or that Israel has absolutely no obligation nor responsibility to help at all, yet is providing more aid than any other faction before it to the civilian population by another faction they were attacked by. The reality is that these facts do not go well with the narrative. I acknowledged and condemned every war crime or crime that Israel committed, yet not one anti-Israel user here acknowledged a single of the above mentioned things that speak for Israel (correct me if I am wrong on this one... the thread is pretty long and I can't remember every comment) . It seems that you people are hell-bent on painting Israel as an evil entity which contains no good and that is what I start to find comically absurd. First you say we can't trust the figures whatever reasons. I would add to this bodies not yet found in the rubble that is the entire area. Then you say the figures (FACTS) that you already pointed out are meaningless, show that the casualty rate is low in comparison to 'similar conflict zones' (this means whatever comparison you want to make because it helps whatever point you are trying to make at the time). Second bolded bit: You understand that indefinitely delaying something means it doesn't get added to the list of prohibited aid, right? Israel wasn't prohibiting aid trucks because it was delaying them forever to stop people getting aid. There you go, that's a bunch of your facts addressed.
After we started quite good, I have reservations, engaging with you, after our last exchange. But I will give it another try.
Yes, I gave reasons why I think that much of the data that was provided by MoH (Hamas controlled) needs to be questioned.
Do you have issues with these reasons? If so, what issues?
I don't follow. I said that even when not taking into account the necessary corrections, Israel's casualty rate in comparison to comparable conflict zones is insanely commendable.
But these goods were not "indefinitely delayed".
Did you read about the numbers on how many tracks went into Gaza since the start of the war?
Do you accept the 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom? The full warehouses Hamas said it has? If the goods were indefinitely delayed, how could these 650 trucks be at Kerem Shalom? How could the warehouses of Hamas burst with stolen humanitarian goods? From who did Hamas steal these goods?
On September 20 2024 23:51 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:
I mean, yeah... we can merry go round in a never ending circle of supposed and or imagined insinuations and allusions or things that the other never said (again, you paraphrase me utterly wrong and oversimplify/attribute motifs that were/are not there).
Actually that was just me setting a trap, I put in direct/very close quotes from you and then added something about how we could tell that you thought that even though you didn't say it. That was designed to get your usual bullshit about how I'm making things up in response, which you went for. Show nested quote +On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:
Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make.
[...]
The part where you were saying things that you truly believe, like Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, Palestinians are scary people with evil values, and maybe it makes sense that Israel has to deal with them in some way, that was a "new" conversation in the context of this thread Stir up trouble: Show nested quote +On August 26 2024 20:44 PremoBeats wrote:
Why aren’t Jordan and Egypt taking them? [...] certainly not because Palestinians wherever they found refuge stirred up trouble, right?
Problem people: Show nested quote +On September 07 2024 16:54 PremoBeats wrote:
It does not necessarily follow that Palestine needs to be ethnically cleansed from Israel’s POV simply because they have issues with the Palestinians. Maybe Israel has to deal with them: Show nested quote +On September 01 2024 17:05 PremoBeats wrote:
I simply point out that other nations have reservations [editor's note: about Palestinians] and that there are reasons for that and that the same reasons could apply to Israel as well.
Scary people: Show nested quote +On August 25 2024 19:13 PremoBeats wrote:
Alternate reasons (editor's note: for why Israel is doing this campaign):
- Focus on security and self-defense of the Israeli government, especially in response to continuous terrorist attacks as well as one larger scale incident.
Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 16:18 PremoBeats wrote:
I am not against the idea that the Palestinians get a country of their own. But security concers by neighbouring states (not only Israel) have to be taken account. There probably needs to be a confederation for the West Bank with Jordan and of Gaza with Egypt where they and Israel have supervising functions. Evil values: Show nested quote +On August 26 2024 20:44 PremoBeats wrote:
I said that everyday life in Palestine is incompatible with Western values, nothing more. Show nested quote +On September 11 2024 02:12 PremoBeats wrote:
I am using a value judgment, of course. I am neither foolish, nor cowardly enough to not say that I think that some cultures or societies and their laws are more moral or humane.
Hopefully (just kidding) this is enough to demonstrate that you whine about misrepresentations as a debate tactic to avoid discussing issues and not because of anything I'm doing or not doing.
So what if my opinions don't align with Kwark's on each and every aspect? Until now I don't disagree with anything he posted since I joined the thread (at least not so much that I would need to type it out).
I don't even know what I should do with your reply. You highlight some words, attribute your own meaning and motif and hand wave away my overall conclusion (Demilitarization, de-radicalization... Blabla, you know it by now, I hope).
You make it seem like me pointing out that Palestinians historically stirring up trouble in other countries and these countries now having reasons to not let Palestinians in out of safety concerns, is somehow bad. But why should it be? It is a simple observable fact. Sound familiar? Yeah? Cause we are going in circles, as you know you can't talk with me about the actual numbers and facts. Thus you have to craft BS arguments out of context-derived quotes.
The same way that observing how every day life in Palestine is incompatible with Western Values because of the homophobic and misogynistic culture as well as laws that permeate the area, does still not mean that I want to ethnically cleanse, genocide or legitimize the death of Palestinians.
So if you are done with these sorry attempts, you are free to address the facts and why you still think that Israel is indiscriminately killing Palestinians, even though the Palestine has a 70/75% women/children-population, yet 40% of the dead are combatants.
Ooooooor:
STC casualty rate as a means to discuss the "deliberate" killing of Palestinians (or the genocide accusations that have been flowing around here too)
- How controlling for natural death numbers would affect the STC
- How many people were killed by Hamas and the effect on the STC
- How many people were killed by the IDF in retaliation to Hamas building bases in and firing from safety zones and the effect on the STC
- What kind of metric we should use to account for deaths that are caused by Hamas using civilian infrastructure (also affecting the STC)
- What to do about the impossible behavior of the data sets in regards to the “resurrections“ of fallen Hamas combatants or how the cumulated number of dead women and children exceeds the total numbers of deaths in certain periods
- How to account for the 10k "dead" that have not been IDed... who were they?
The massive amounts of medical and nutritional aid Israel provided as a means to discuss the accusations of "forced famine/starvation" (or again genocide)
- How much aid was put inside Gaza
- How much percent of trucks actually were prohibited from entering
- What happens when the trucks have entered Gaza (for example over 650 trucks post-inspection at Kerem Shalom)
- Hamas attacking humanitarian aid trucks, stealing and reselling the goods on the black market at inflated prices like Palestinians reported
- Israel actively repairing and maintaining pipes that Hamas has damaged in order to get water to Gaza
News
Don't know if this was posted yet:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/100-rockets-fly-israel-hezbollah-world-leaders-urge/story?id=113867503
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You're grasping at straws. "Hizbollah launched some rockets, which means that the attack was unnecessary." Hizbollah has thousands of rockets. The fact that they are still capable of launching some of them obviously doesn't prove anything. No-one thought this would eradicate Hizbollah entirely. It can still be a significant blow.
Israel stil hasn't taken responsibility, though. I can't argue with that, MP. That's a really strong argument. + Show Spoiler +except that Israel never claims responsibility for covert operations
On September 20 2024 23:04 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:58 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 22:52 Jockmcplop wrote:
I have no idea how a completely crippled terrorist organisation has managed to fire 100 rockets into northern Israel.
Its insane. They were supposed to be completely out of action thanks to Israel's crippling blow.
Maybe they did something totally insane like buying some new pagers.
Damn terrorists, you just would never expect them to go that far. That feels like a bit of a straw man. Who was arguing that it defeated Iran once and for all? You’ve certainly got them in a bind but I don’t know who it is. Also given the supply chain pager attack and the follow up radio attack I would assume that they’ll probably not just buy a crate of pagers from some guy who just showed up with them. That feels like the one thing they wouldn’t do. Pagers are convenient, but i would imagine most Hezbollah fighters have easy access to an encrypted email they can use in a pinch while they sort out their new devices whatever they happen to be.
Are you being sarcastic again? The whole point of using pagers is to use a device that doesn't send out any signals and thus cannot be hacked. They ditched the computers because they were too dangerous. That's why they used pagers to begin with. It's not like they use pagers because they are better or more convenient than computers.
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On September 21 2024 01:37 PremoBeats wrote:
I don't even know what I should do with your reply. You highlight some words, attribute your own meaning and motif and hand wave away my overall conclusion (Demilitarization, de-radicalization... Blabla, you know it by now, I hope).
You make it seem like me pointing out that Palestinians historically stirring up trouble in other countries and these countries now having reasons to not let Palestinians in out of safety concerns, is somehow bad.
I didn't "make it seem" like anything, I very clearly just said that your claim that I'm misrepresenting you is wrong, as you're saying those things. There was no other content in the post. Since you don't know what you should do with my answer, I can tell you: you should stop using false claims of misrepresentation in the future and focus on the issues.
Of course there are additional problems with that, as this speaks to mindset: a person who will immediately claim to be misrepresented when their actual words are written back to them doesn't really care about what they're saying, and that brings their honesty into question. But of course it's been clear since your first few posts that you aren't engaging in good faith so that's not really new information.
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On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:24 Dan HH wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You have strange way of parsing information. The question was whether this was step 1 of a larger strategy (i.e. ground forces entering Lebanon) or not. This SME's opinion is that it was not part of a larger operation, but a standalone one rushed by the ticking clock. Were he wrong and Israel entered Lebanon tomorrow, that wouldn't mean he is lying or NBC is lying, it's an opinion. Were that to happen, it also wouldn't make the pager explosions more or less defensible. The implication of your post before this one is that Israel would have to immediately invade to "save face" or improve their reputation, which is peak Magic-posting. Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption? Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments. There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that.
Israel burrowed some banelings. Hezbollah walked over them. Israel detonated them. Hezbollah typed "damn, you got me good" but didn't leave the game.
You're here telling us any move that doesn't instawin you the game or isn't part of an all-in is useless and Hezbollah's own admission of the damage it has done to them is wrong.
This exchange would have ended when RvB quoted Nasrallah if your ego didn't have the mass of Sagittarius A.
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On September 21 2024 06:04 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 22:29 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 22:24 Dan HH wrote:On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You have strange way of parsing information. The question was whether this was step 1 of a larger strategy (i.e. ground forces entering Lebanon) or not. This SME's opinion is that it was not part of a larger operation, but a standalone one rushed by the ticking clock. Were he wrong and Israel entered Lebanon tomorrow, that wouldn't mean he is lying or NBC is lying, it's an opinion. Were that to happen, it also wouldn't make the pager explosions more or less defensible. The implication of your post before this one is that Israel would have to immediately invade to "save face" or improve their reputation, which is peak Magic-posting. Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption? Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments. There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that. Israel burrowed some banelings. Hezbollah walked over them. Israel detonated them. Hezbollah typed "damn, you got me good" but didn't leave the game. You're here telling us any move that doesn't instawin you the game or isn't part of an all-in is useless and Hezbollah's own admission of the damage it has done to them is wrong. This exchange would have ended when RvB quoted Nasrallah if your ego didn't have the mass of Sagittarius A.
You're still not providing objective evidence. Can Israelis return to their homes?
If you can't find sources, here's a simple overview of attacks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israel–Hezbollah_conflict_(27_July_2024_–_present)
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