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On September 20 2024 08:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 08:36 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
I'm not being contrarian, I really do believe that the stance that Israel is pursuing a policy of eradication of Gazans due to some racially exclusionary national policy to be contrary to reality. I don't like Israel but that doesn't mean I have to make things up about it. You don't need to make up weird lies about Israel to criticize it and this is a weird lie. The reason why Israel wants the land is colonial in nature, with a religious fascism component attached to it. If Israel wasn't a democratic system you could achieve those goals without moving the Palestinians, you would just annex their land and then rule them, that would be okay. Of course in the current day there are many other factors that make this annexation impossible, and those are the reasons that jump at you over the democracy blocs reason. I think the democracy blocs reason is more important than those other factors because it's a systemic reason, it's mechanical. Even if we "fix" all of the other factors that appear more damaging in the current situation, it would still be impossible for Israel to make Palestinians citizens of Israel. And they don't plan to. On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
The goal of Israel doesn't have anything to do with Palestinians. On November 03 2023 02:25 KwarK wrote:
Israel just leaked an official government policy document that advocated for the forced relocation of the Palestinians to Sinai. It’s not a good look if anyone wants to argue they’d not really do ethnic cleansing. There are clearly individuals within the Israeli state that not only would ethically cleanse Palestine but are actively shaping policy in that direction. That leaves us in the undesirable position of hoping that more reasonable politicians overrule them, in the Netanyahu government. A minority position advocated for unsuccessfully by a minority within a hard right government that I am not a fan of. Not the literal goal of the state of Israel. That would be a gross misrepresentation of it. Again, it's bad enough that there are people like that within the government, you don't need to take it further and claim that it's the purpose of the nation. Also it's a position that exists within a context of the failed state on their borders. I've argued that the situation would get better with population controls imposed upon Gaza and I'm not trying to steal all their land for farms. The motivation behind the proposal is to try to move the dumpster fire from their back yard to Egypt's because it's a catastrophe that injures everyone nearby.
How many ministers are there in this government let's check for this minority position. It's also Netanyahu's position very clearly so I'm not sure why you're so ready to dismiss it now, didn't sound like you were ready to do that in november when you didn't need to disagree with me.
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United States41470 Posts
On September 20 2024 08:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 08:44 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 08:36 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
I'm not being contrarian, I really do believe that the stance that Israel is pursuing a policy of eradication of Gazans due to some racially exclusionary national policy to be contrary to reality. I don't like Israel but that doesn't mean I have to make things up about it. You don't need to make up weird lies about Israel to criticize it and this is a weird lie. The reason why Israel wants the land is colonial in nature, with a religious fascism component attached to it. If Israel wasn't a democratic system you could achieve those goals without moving the Palestinians, you would just annex their land and then rule them, that would be okay. Of course in the current day there are many other factors that make this annexation impossible, and those are the reasons that jump at you over the democracy blocs reason. I think the democracy blocs reason is more important than those other factors because it's a systemic reason, it's mechanical. Even if we "fix" all of the other factors that appear more damaging in the current situation, it would still be impossible for Israel to make Palestinians citizens of Israel. And they don't plan to. On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
The goal of Israel doesn't have anything to do with Palestinians. On November 03 2023 02:25 KwarK wrote:
Israel just leaked an official government policy document that advocated for the forced relocation of the Palestinians to Sinai. It’s not a good look if anyone wants to argue they’d not really do ethnic cleansing. There are clearly individuals within the Israeli state that not only would ethically cleanse Palestine but are actively shaping policy in that direction. That leaves us in the undesirable position of hoping that more reasonable politicians overrule them, in the Netanyahu government. A minority position advocated for unsuccessfully by a minority within a hard right government that I am not a fan of. Not the literal goal of the state of Israel. That would be a gross misrepresentation of it. Again, it's bad enough that there are people like that within the government, you don't need to take it further and claim that it's the purpose of the nation. Also it's a position that exists within a context of the failed state on their borders. I've argued that the situation would get better with population controls imposed upon Gaza and I'm not trying to steal all their land for farms. The motivation behind the proposal is to try to move the dumpster fire from their back yard to Egypt's because it's a catastrophe that injures everyone nearby. How many ministers are there in this government let's check for this minority position. It's also Netanyahu's position very clearly so I'm not sure why you're so ready to dismiss it now, didn't sound like you were ready to do that in november when you didn't need to disagree with me.
I can disagree with Israel and you when you go off the deep end.
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On September 20 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 08:49 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:44 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 08:36 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
I'm not being contrarian, I really do believe that the stance that Israel is pursuing a policy of eradication of Gazans due to some racially exclusionary national policy to be contrary to reality. I don't like Israel but that doesn't mean I have to make things up about it. You don't need to make up weird lies about Israel to criticize it and this is a weird lie. The reason why Israel wants the land is colonial in nature, with a religious fascism component attached to it. If Israel wasn't a democratic system you could achieve those goals without moving the Palestinians, you would just annex their land and then rule them, that would be okay. Of course in the current day there are many other factors that make this annexation impossible, and those are the reasons that jump at you over the democracy blocs reason. I think the democracy blocs reason is more important than those other factors because it's a systemic reason, it's mechanical. Even if we "fix" all of the other factors that appear more damaging in the current situation, it would still be impossible for Israel to make Palestinians citizens of Israel. And they don't plan to. On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
The goal of Israel doesn't have anything to do with Palestinians. On November 03 2023 02:25 KwarK wrote:
Israel just leaked an official government policy document that advocated for the forced relocation of the Palestinians to Sinai. It’s not a good look if anyone wants to argue they’d not really do ethnic cleansing. There are clearly individuals within the Israeli state that not only would ethically cleanse Palestine but are actively shaping policy in that direction. That leaves us in the undesirable position of hoping that more reasonable politicians overrule them, in the Netanyahu government. A minority position advocated for unsuccessfully by a minority within a hard right government that I am not a fan of. Not the literal goal of the state of Israel. That would be a gross misrepresentation of it. Again, it's bad enough that there are people like that within the government, you don't need to take it further and claim that it's the purpose of the nation. Also it's a position that exists within a context of the failed state on their borders. I've argued that the situation would get better with population controls imposed upon Gaza and I'm not trying to steal all their land for farms. The motivation behind the proposal is to try to move the dumpster fire from their back yard to Egypt's because it's a catastrophe that injures everyone nearby. How many ministers are there in this government let's check for this minority position. It's also Netanyahu's position very clearly so I'm not sure why you're so ready to dismiss it now, didn't sound like you were ready to do that in november when you didn't need to disagree with me. I can disagree with Israel and you when you go off the deep end.
I'm aware of that. Doesn't seem very relevant to my last post though.
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On September 20 2024 07:54 Oldwiseman44 wrote:
And while I agree Israel is annexing portions of the Westbank, they are not using the conflict or their army to do it, so it is not very comparable and the reasons are also very different. For example there is no valuable minerals, grain production, ship yards, military bases and so on in Palestine. Russia's war is about conquest, Israel's war with Iran happening in Palestine, Lebanon and Yemen is not.
What I meant is that Israeli settlements are used like the fake puppet states of Russia (LPR, DPR etc.) in that they're using them as an excuse for military actions. Typically it's something along the lines of "we had to intervene to protect our citizens from whatever." Israel claims that the settlements are not under their sovereignty yet they're very conveniently used for various pretexts.
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United States41470 Posts
On September 20 2024 08:53 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 08:49 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:44 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 08:36 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
I'm not being contrarian, I really do believe that the stance that Israel is pursuing a policy of eradication of Gazans due to some racially exclusionary national policy to be contrary to reality. I don't like Israel but that doesn't mean I have to make things up about it. You don't need to make up weird lies about Israel to criticize it and this is a weird lie. The reason why Israel wants the land is colonial in nature, with a religious fascism component attached to it. If Israel wasn't a democratic system you could achieve those goals without moving the Palestinians, you would just annex their land and then rule them, that would be okay. Of course in the current day there are many other factors that make this annexation impossible, and those are the reasons that jump at you over the democracy blocs reason. I think the democracy blocs reason is more important than those other factors because it's a systemic reason, it's mechanical. Even if we "fix" all of the other factors that appear more damaging in the current situation, it would still be impossible for Israel to make Palestinians citizens of Israel. And they don't plan to. On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
The goal of Israel doesn't have anything to do with Palestinians. On November 03 2023 02:25 KwarK wrote:
Israel just leaked an official government policy document that advocated for the forced relocation of the Palestinians to Sinai. It’s not a good look if anyone wants to argue they’d not really do ethnic cleansing. There are clearly individuals within the Israeli state that not only would ethically cleanse Palestine but are actively shaping policy in that direction. That leaves us in the undesirable position of hoping that more reasonable politicians overrule them, in the Netanyahu government. A minority position advocated for unsuccessfully by a minority within a hard right government that I am not a fan of. Not the literal goal of the state of Israel. That would be a gross misrepresentation of it. Again, it's bad enough that there are people like that within the government, you don't need to take it further and claim that it's the purpose of the nation. Also it's a position that exists within a context of the failed state on their borders. I've argued that the situation would get better with population controls imposed upon Gaza and I'm not trying to steal all their land for farms. The motivation behind the proposal is to try to move the dumpster fire from their back yard to Egypt's because it's a catastrophe that injures everyone nearby. How many ministers are there in this government let's check for this minority position. It's also Netanyahu's position very clearly so I'm not sure why you're so ready to dismiss it now, didn't sound like you were ready to do that in november when you didn't need to disagree with me. I can disagree with Israel and you when you go off the deep end. I'm aware of that. Doesn't seem very relevant to my last post though.
This all started with your absolutely ludicrous claim that Israel is unwilling to tolerate Palestinian Arabs as citizens, despite the existence of millions of them. I'm honestly not even sure what you're arguing anymore but you were 100% wrong on that one because there's literally millions of them.
Regarding colonial expansionism, let's propose a thought experiment. A UN from a different timeline in which the UN actually does things steps in and guarantees the borders of Palestine against Israel incursions and settlements. It deploys peacekeepers on the border to act as a tripwire and the IDF does not touch Gaza or the West Bank again. The UN force internally polices the area and curtail the activities of Hamas/Hezbollah etc. Is Israel unhappy in this scenario?
I don't think it is, I think in this scenario Israel is very happy to just be left the fuck alone by Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas. Sure, they can't get any more Palestinian land but they also don't have to deal with rockets.
Israel has repeatedly traded land for peace in the past. They're willing to do so. The context of the Gaza conflict is that Hamas have zero interest in peace because their existence is predicated on conflict. It'd be like trying to talk a fish out of water. They're a foe that Israel literally cannot make peace with.
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"Israel has neither confirmed nor denied involvement in the attacks."
An important question to ask is why Israel hasn't come forward and admitted to the pager attack. Everyone knows it was them, there's no doubting it. So they're playing a game of secrecy, and the question is what their intent is. Act innocent? Perhaps. Innocent of what? Are they not proud of their actions? If the attack was justified, they'd have every reason to take full accountability. What is stopping them? Conscience? Optics?
Hezbollah's command is certainly expecting more covert attacks, and it's not like they'll learn anything new about Israel's next step from an admission. What strategic value is there in this secrecy?
There is no change in policy or action on either side. Israel is still afraid of missile attacks from Southern Lebanon, hostilities continue unabashed on both sides, civilians still can't move freely. Is this supposed to be a weakened Hezbollah or a safer Israeli population? Where's the short-term benefit? What's the promise of long-term benefit?
"The leader of Hezbollah vowed Thursday to keep up daily strikes on Israel despite this week’s deadly sabotage of its members’ communication devices, and said Israelis displaced from homes near the Lebanon border because of the fighting would not be able to return until the war in Gaza ends."
"During Nasrallah’s speech, Hezbollah struck at least four times in northern Israel, and two Israeli soldiers were killed in a strike earlier in the day. Israeli warplanes flew low over Beirut while Nasrallah spoke and broke the sound barrier, scattering birds and prompting people in houses and offices to quickly open windows to prevent them from shattering.
Israel also launched attacks in southern Lebanon on Thursday, saying it struck hundreds of rocket launchers and other Hezbollah infrastructure, though it was not immediately clear if there were any casualties. The army claimed the launchers were about to be used “in the immediate future.”
At the same time, the army ordered residents in parts of the Golan Heights and northern Israel to avoid public gatherings, minimize movements and stay close to shelters in anticipation of possible rocket fire."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-lebanon-exploding-devices-hezbollah-mideast-ab2436cf5bae5e2fe2dddb293671a0ac
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United States41470 Posts
That’s not an important question at all. Israel won’t confirm all sorts of silly things that everyone knows is them. That’s just Israel being Israel. You might as well say “an important question to ask in why the English claim that it’s coming home”. They just do.
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On September 20 2024 08:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 08:44 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 08:36 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
I'm not being contrarian, I really do believe that the stance that Israel is pursuing a policy of eradication of Gazans due to some racially exclusionary national policy to be contrary to reality. I don't like Israel but that doesn't mean I have to make things up about it. You don't need to make up weird lies about Israel to criticize it and this is a weird lie. The reason why Israel wants the land is colonial in nature, with a religious fascism component attached to it. If Israel wasn't a democratic system you could achieve those goals without moving the Palestinians, you would just annex their land and then rule them, that would be okay. Of course in the current day there are many other factors that make this annexation impossible, and those are the reasons that jump at you over the democracy blocs reason. I think the democracy blocs reason is more important than those other factors because it's a systemic reason, it's mechanical. Even if we "fix" all of the other factors that appear more damaging in the current situation, it would still be impossible for Israel to make Palestinians citizens of Israel. And they don't plan to. On September 20 2024 08:22 KwarK wrote:
The goal of Israel doesn't have anything to do with Palestinians. On November 03 2023 02:25 KwarK wrote:
Israel just leaked an official government policy document that advocated for the forced relocation of the Palestinians to Sinai. It’s not a good look if anyone wants to argue they’d not really do ethnic cleansing. There are clearly individuals within the Israeli state that not only would ethically cleanse Palestine but are actively shaping policy in that direction. That leaves us in the undesirable position of hoping that more reasonable politicians overrule them, in the Netanyahu government. A minority position advocated for unsuccessfully by a minority within a hard right government that I am not a fan of. Not the literal goal of the state of Israel. That would be a gross misrepresentation of it. Again, it's bad enough that there are people like that within the government, you don't need to take it further and claim that it's the purpose of the nation. Also it's a position that exists within a context of the failed state on their borders. I've argued that the situation would get better with population controls imposed upon Gaza and I'm not trying to steal all their land for farms. The motivation behind the proposal is to try to move the dumpster fire from their back yard to Egypt's because it's a catastrophe that injures everyone nearby. How many ministers are there in this government let's check for this minority position. It's also Netanyahu's position very clearly so I'm not sure why you're so ready to dismiss it now, didn't sound like you were ready to do that in november when you didn't need to disagree with me.
So I did the work (not that it's going to change anything). Mostly googled "name" + "Palestine"/"Gaza" + "Quotes"
Here's the Netanyahu government according to wiki, hopefully I didn't forget anyone:
Amichai Chikli
Amihai Eliyahu
Aryeh Deri
Avi Dichter
Benjamin Netanyahu
Bezalel Smotrich
Dudi Amsalem
Eli Cohen
Galit Distel-Atbaryan
Gila Gamliel
Haim Biton
Haim Katz
Idit Silman
Israel Katz
Itamar Ben-Gvir
May Golan
Meir Porush
Michael Malchieli
Miki Zohar
Miri Regev
Moshe Arbel
Nir Barkat
Ofir Sofer
Orit Strook
Ron Dermer
Shlomo Karhi
Uriel Buso
Ya'akov Margi
Yariv Levin
Yifat Shasha-Biton
Yitzhak Goldknopf
Yitzhak Wasserlauf
Yoav Ben-Tzur
Yoav Gallant
Yoav Kisch
First, here are the people who I believe aren't on this side, I don't want to have it look like I buried them at the end:
Aryeh Deri
Haim Biton
Meir Porush
Michael Malchieli
Moshe Arbel
Uriel Buso
Ya'akov Margi
Yifat Shasha-Biton
Yoav Ben-Tzur
David "Dudi" Amsalem doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would be opposed to ethnic cleansing but I didn't find quotes so he's there too.
I'm going to have to isolate Miri Regev there because somehow I'm unable to find ethnic cleansing quotes from her, apparently her problem is more Africans lol: "Heaven forbid, I did not talk about human beings and I did not compare them to human beings." She is also quoted as saying she's "happy to be a fascist". It doesn't seem that she comments much on Palestinians, or these quotes didn't make it to english.
I assume you don't need me to go about Benny, Smotrich or Ben Gvir.
First, this article that is unfortunately paywalled, "Netanyahu's Ministers at Far-right Conference Endorse Expulsion of Palestinians". I found the text version on Reddit, the people who were there were: "Bezalel Smotrich and Orit Strock (Religious Zionism), Itamar Ben-Gvir, Amichai Eliyahu and Yitzhak Wasserlauf (Otzma Yehudit), Haim Katz, Amichai Chikli, Shlomo Karhi (Likud) and many others."
Later found the wiki article for this that adds Idit Silman, Yitzhak Goldknopf and May Golan. I'm adding Silman and Goldknopf based on that even though I haven't found very specific quotes (Silman quoting some racist shit by Golda Meir, for example, doesn't seem to qualify as enough but in conjonction with her presence at the conference I'll allow it).
Quotes explicitly advocating for ethnic cleansing:
Amichai Chikli:
On a podcast in 2021 Chikli dismissed the Palestinian identity and called for it to be eliminated by saying: “It is all built on opposition to Zionism. That is the national identity of Palestinians. There is no Palestinian national identity with a positive content of its own. Therefore we won’t be rid of this conflict until this national identity ceases to be.”
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Amihai Eliyahu:
Israeli Heritage Minister Amichai Eliyahu urged that Israel “must find ways for Gazans that are more painful than death” to defeat them and break their morale, as the US did with Japan.
Eliyahu expressed, in statements to Israeli radio station 103 FM, that Israel must decide the battle by breaking the morale of the Palestinians in Gaza and causing them pain involving their land, destroying homes, breaking their national dream and voluntary immigration. When the presenter interrupted him, saying this was not possible, Eliyahu replied that it was, similar to what happened during the Arab Spring when large numbers of the region’s population immigrated to Germany.
According to the Israeli minister’s statements, the residents of Gaza should be encouraged to immigrate to other countries as part of revenge measures against them after the events of Operation Al-Aqsa flood.
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Avi Dichter:
Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter told Israeli Channel 12 over the weekend that the war would be “Gaza’s Nakba,” using the Arabic word for “catastrophe” that many use to describe the 1948 displacement of roughly 700,000 Palestinians who were expelled from their land in what became Israel.
“We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” Dichter, a member of the right-wing Likud party, said Saturday, in comments widely reported by Israeli media. “From an operational point of view, there is no way to wage a war — as the Israeli army seeks to do in Gaza — with masses between the tanks and the soldiers,” he said. Pressed on his use of the word “Nakba” to describe the situation in Gaza, he said again: “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end.”
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Eli Cohen:
Foreign Minister Eli Cohen tells Army Radio, “At the end of this war, not only will Hamas no longer be in Gaza, but the territory of Gaza will also decrease.”
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Galit Distel-Atbaryan:
Israel-Palestine war: Likud MP calls for Gaza to be 'erased from the face of the earth'
Galit Distel Atbaryan, who was recently public diplomacy minister, says on Facebook a 'vengeful and vicious' Israeli army is needed to wipe out the Palestinian enclave
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Gila Gamliel:
"The Gaza problem is not just our problem. The world should support humanitarian emigration, because that’s the only solution I know."
"Instead of funneling money to rebuild Gaza or to the failed UNRWA, the international community can assist in the costs of resettlement, helping the people of Gaza build new lives in their new host countries. Gaza has long been thought of as a problem without an answer."
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Haim Katz:
Haim Katz, Israeli cabinet minister from Netanyahu’s Likud party, exposed Israel's endgame: “Today, we have the opportunity to rebuild and expand the land of Israel. This is our final opportunity.”
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Israel Katz:
“Yesterday I warned the Arab students, who are flying Palestine flags at universities: Remember 48. Remember our independence war and your Nakba, don’t stretch the rope too much. […] If you don’t calm down, we’ll teach you a lesson that won’t be forgotten”
"Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electric switch will be turned on, no water tap will be opened, and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home," he said in a statement.
On Friday, the day Israel made the evacuation order, Katz said his country will destroy Hamas and that Gazan civilians were ordered to leave immediately.
"We will win. They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world," he added.
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Orit Strook: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people,” Strook said in a video on her X account of her speech during a Knesset session.
“There will never be a Palestinian state in the land of Israel,” she said. "Every cultured person in the world knows that this land is ours, for the Israeli people and only for us.”
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Ron Dermer:
Not quoted but found this in the Intercept: "Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has tasked his top adviser, Ron Dermer, the minister of strategic affairs, with designing plans to “thin” the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip “to a minimum,” according to a bombshell new report in an Israeli newspaper founded by the late Republican billionaire Sheldon Adelson.
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Shlomo Karhi:
"Likud minister Shlomo Karhi clarified that the transfer of the Palestinians of Gaza, in his words "voluntary emigration," is the "only way to exact a heavy price from the Nazis of Hamas and ensure security." Karhi explained "voluntary" as follows: "'Voluntary' is at times a situation you impose [on someone] until they give their consent."" (from the paywalled Haaretz article mentioned earlier)
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Yariv Levin:
"Justice Minister Yariv Levin stating that all of the land of Israel will belong only to Jews."
https://x.com/KnessetT/status/1681679848090005504
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Yitzhak Wasserlauf:
Yitzhak Wasserlauf, an Israeli cabinet official, stated, "A total victory means a return to settle" the Gaza Strip.
More generic genocidal quotes
May Golan: "I am personally proud of the ruins of Gaza, and that every baby, even 80 years from now, will tell their grandchildren what the Jews did"
"I don't care about Gaza. I literally don't care at all. They can go out and swim in the sea. I want
to see dead bodies of terrorists around gaza."
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Miki Zohar:
Another elected official from the ruling coalition, Likud’s Miki Zohar, did not hesitate to state that the Arabs have a problem that has no solution – they are not Jews and therefore their fate in this land cannot be the same as that of the Jews.
"I say clearly to anyone still stuck in October 6: We will never lend a hand to the creation of a Palestinian state," Israeli Culture Minister Miki Zohar said on social media last month. "This is our pledge to the sacred murder victims."
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Nir Barkat
During a contentious “Morning Joe” interview on Thursday, Israeli Economic Minister Nir Barkat used air quotes as he spoke of “the innocent people in Gaza,” suggesting he does not believe there are innocent people in the besieged Gaza Strip.
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Ofir Sofer (weakish quote):
"A Palestinian state will not be established."
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Yoav Gallant:
"We will eliminate everything. If it doesn't take one day, it will take a week, it will take weeks, or even months, we will reach all places. There is no way that our brothers, our children, our parents will be killed and we won't react because we are a state, — they will regret it"
"Soon they'll realize the IDF's power, even in the southern part [of Gaza]" he added: ""Those who were on the western side
of Gaza City understand this well and have already met the deadly power of the IDF, those who are on the eastern side
understand this tonight and will understand it in the coming days, and those who are in the south of the Gaza Strip will also
understand this soon."
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Yoav Kisch:
"Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated," argued Yoav Kisch, Israeli Minister of Education.
"Every Jew knows the saying 'Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way […]' and that is
what [H*] did and their judgement shall be to destroy them, full stop. I relate to them like
Amalek." The patriots on channel 14 episode posted October 9 2023 [27:20 – 27:34 ]"
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Here's some dude who isn't a minister but it took me so fucking long to do this and at the end of this I was so annoyed by my complete awareness that nobody is going to care about it that I couldn't be fucked to not quote this: "One of them is by Nissim Vaturi, member of the Israeli Parliament, where he is Deputy Speaker. Although, according to Israeli TV Channel 12, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has in recent days called on politicians to choose “their words carefully” so as not to give ammunition ahead of the hearing in The Hague, Vaturi on Wednesday reaffirmed his calls to “wipe Gaza off the face of the earth,” and added: “Gaza must be burned.” “I stand behind my words... It is better to burn down buildings rather than have [Israeli] soldiers harmed. There are no innocents there,” he said in a radio interview before calling for the “elimination” of the estimated 100,000 Palestinians left in northern Gaza. “I have no mercy for those who are still there. We need to eliminate them,” added Vaturi, who belongs to Likud, the right-wing party led by Netanyahu."
Way too long didn't read: depending on how you're counting, somewhere between 9 and 14 out of 37 don't support ethnic cleansing based on me googling for 3 minutes about each of them.
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On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:
There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel.
Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone.
People don't want to talk about these facts. I tried several times, even with Nebuchad.
Arabs are in the police, they are teachers, servce in court and basically every layer of Israeli society. An Arab judge put a former Jewish PM behind bars. They don't want to hear it.
And nice observation on Nebuchad's contradiction in that other post, which wasn't followed up by a plausible explanation until now.
On September 19 2024 09:31 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 07:02 Acrofales wrote:On September 19 2024 03:54 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 03:50 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 03:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 03:17 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2024 02:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 02:39 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2024 02:18 Jockmcplop wrote:
As long as we accept that making people explode, no matter who are where they are at the time, isn't a terrorist attack, we are going to have to acknowledge the same for suicide bombers no matter who or where they are... But the “who” does matter. Blowing up hezbollah fighters is different than blowing up a city bus Of course. I've already said this is preferable to flattening a whole area and starving the population to death. But was it only Hezbollah fighters holding these devices? Does Israel know the holder of every device? Its like a suicide bomber blowing up an embassy. I've always seen that referred to as a terrorist attack. Its targeted, but its a terrorist attack. What's your standard here? If one drop of innocent blood was shed then it's terrorism? No, terrorism is about intention and method, not the identity of victims. According to the FBI: The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government or civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives. They could have chosen to kill soldiers in a military setting. Instead they chose a method that would make people explode in public around the civilian population. Fear and intimidation is what this was about. They haven't made a dent in Hezbollah's ability to fight. What military setting are you imagining Hezbollah being in? Well apparently they do nothing but fire rockets into Israel so wherever they are doing that? Please let me know if I’m misunderstanding because I’m not trying to straw man you. Are you saying Israel is only allowed to kill them at the location at which rockets are being fired during the firing of the rockets? That’d be an unusually strict rules of engagement for a war. Last I checked, military on leave, enjoying a quiet evening with their family, or doing the groceries, or at the funeral of their fellow soldier, were not legitimate military targets... I’m probably the wrong person to make this argument to because I think all war is basically criminal and that people shouldn’t do it.
Just to clarify: You probably talk about offensive wars here, right?
Regarding colonial expansionism, let's propose a thought experiment. A UN from a different timeline in which the UN actually does things steps in and guarantees the borders of Palestine against Israel incursions and settlements. It deploys peacekeepers on the border to act as a tripwire and the IDF does not touch Gaza or the West Bank again. The UN force internally polices the area and curtail the activities of Hamas/Hezbollah etc. Is Israel unhappy in this scenario?
I don't think it is, I think in this scenario Israel is very happy to just be left the fuck alone by Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas. Sure, they can't get any more Palestinian land but they also don't have to deal with rockets.
Israel has repeatedly traded land for peace in the past. They're willing to do so. The context of the Gaza conflict is that Hamas have zero interest in peace because their existence is predicated on conflict. It'd be like trying to talk a fish out of water. They're a foe that Israel literally cannot make peace with.
This is what I have been saying all along. Israel as a whole does not gain anything from the continuation of this conflict. Given that Netanyahu - out of inner political rationalizations - might be interested in prolonging the war, Israel would be perfectly fine if all fighting stops tomorrow.
On September 17 2024 04:50 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2024 04:20 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 22:23 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values. I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine. You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize. Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make. And yes you're right I don't know the protestors' motivations, I wasn't there. So, do you reckon I'm wrong? They're not here because they think killing people is bad? I pointed out that it would be stupid to assume that there can mostly be one reason (Islamophobia... like you did in 6174) that makes people not care about Palestinians. I showed, that other reasons can also exist, even for majority countries/governments that share the same faith, to tackle that idiotic notion of Islamophobia. There can be a multitude of reasons like safety concerns, other worries or the simple fact that these Palestinians are collateral in a war, that has an extremely low civilian casualty rate. I know what these people talked with me about. And they were talking about things that don't interest you/which you avoid replying to. Anyway: You know what to do, if you want to address the facts and numbers that shape the reality of this conflict, instead of beating around the bush with these nonsensical side-topics. The part where you say stuff that you don't really believe and then you pretend you're holding your own through stalling and rhetoric I'm not going back to, it was taking too much time. The part where you were saying things that you truly believe, like Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, Palestinians are scary people with evil values, and maybe it makes sense that Israel has to deal with them in some way, that was a "new" conversation in the context of this thread and it was at least worth exploring, in my opinion, but only insofar as you don't walk it back whenever it feels convenient to you. I can understand dishonest tactics when you're saying something you don't really believe, but in support of your actual position it's just weird.
It is fascinating how you are able to perfectly deduce someone's intentions, motives and beliefs when the person you talk about told you differently several times. Truly magnificent!
I mean, yeah... we can merry go round in a never ending circle of supposed and or imagined insinuations and allusions or things that the other never said (again, you paraphrase me utterly wrong and oversimplify/attribute motifs that were/are not there).
OR, we can discuss the actual data and numbers as well as the contexts of this conflict.
Which - funny enough, not a single person that argued anti-Israel in this thread actually does.
Not one of the several people that engaged with me so far, was able to explain how a genocide is possible given the casualty rate we have. Not one person did engage with the fact that the casualty rate was not controlled for natural deaths. That the casualty rate was not controlled for people killed by Hamas. That 10k casualties have not been IDed (did they even exist?). That the casualty rate is immensely low in comparison to similar conflict zones. That there are impossible data behaviors like combatant resurrections as well as women and children casualties exceeding the total numbers of deaths in certain periods.
Not one person who declared forced starvation addressed the fact that less than 2% of the trucks were prohibited entry or why. No one addressed the fact that 650 trucks were waiting post-inspection at Kerem Shalom. Or that 50% more aid than necessary entered Gaza as well as Hamas having no more space to store humanitarian aid. Or that Israel has absolutely no obligation nor responsibility to help at all, yet is providing more aid than any other faction before it to the civilian population by another faction they were attacked by.
The reality is that these facts do not go well with the narrative. I acknowledged and condemned every war crime or crime that Israel committed, yet not one anti-Israel user here acknowledged a single of the above mentioned things that speak for Israel (correct me if I am wrong on this one... the thread is pretty long and I can't remember every comment) .
It seems that you people are hell-bent on painting Israel as an evil entity which contains no good and that is what I start to find comically absurd.
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On September 20 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:
There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel.
Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone. People don't want to talk about these facts. I tried several times, even with Nebuchad. Arabs are in the police, they are teachers, servce in court and basically every layer of Israeli society. An Arab judge put a former Jewish PM behind bars. They don't want to hear it. And nice observation on Nebuchad's contradiction in that other post, which wasn't followed up by a plausible explanation until now. Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 09:31 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 07:02 Acrofales wrote:On September 19 2024 03:54 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 03:52 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 03:50 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2024 03:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 03:17 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2024 02:57 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 02:39 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
But the “who” does matter. Blowing up hezbollah fighters is different than blowing up a city bus Of course. I've already said this is preferable to flattening a whole area and starving the population to death. But was it only Hezbollah fighters holding these devices? Does Israel know the holder of every device? Its like a suicide bomber blowing up an embassy. I've always seen that referred to as a terrorist attack. Its targeted, but its a terrorist attack. What's your standard here? If one drop of innocent blood was shed then it's terrorism? No, terrorism is about intention and method, not the identity of victims. According to the FBI: The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government or civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives. They could have chosen to kill soldiers in a military setting. Instead they chose a method that would make people explode in public around the civilian population. Fear and intimidation is what this was about. They haven't made a dent in Hezbollah's ability to fight. What military setting are you imagining Hezbollah being in? Well apparently they do nothing but fire rockets into Israel so wherever they are doing that? Please let me know if I’m misunderstanding because I’m not trying to straw man you. Are you saying Israel is only allowed to kill them at the location at which rockets are being fired during the firing of the rockets? That’d be an unusually strict rules of engagement for a war. Last I checked, military on leave, enjoying a quiet evening with their family, or doing the groceries, or at the funeral of their fellow soldier, were not legitimate military targets... I’m probably the wrong person to make this argument to because I think all war is basically criminal and that people shouldn’t do it. Just to clarify: You probably talk about offensive wars here, right? Show nested quote +
Regarding colonial expansionism, let's propose a thought experiment. A UN from a different timeline in which the UN actually does things steps in and guarantees the borders of Palestine against Israel incursions and settlements. It deploys peacekeepers on the border to act as a tripwire and the IDF does not touch Gaza or the West Bank again. The UN force internally polices the area and curtail the activities of Hamas/Hezbollah etc. Is Israel unhappy in this scenario?
I don't think it is, I think in this scenario Israel is very happy to just be left the fuck alone by Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas. Sure, they can't get any more Palestinian land but they also don't have to deal with rockets.
Israel has repeatedly traded land for peace in the past. They're willing to do so. The context of the Gaza conflict is that Hamas have zero interest in peace because their existence is predicated on conflict. It'd be like trying to talk a fish out of water. They're a foe that Israel literally cannot make peace with.
This is what I have been saying all along. Israel as a whole does not gain anything from the continuation of this conflict. Given that Netanyahu - out of inner political rationalizations - might be interested in prolonging the war, Israel would be perfectly fine if all fighting stops tomorrow. Show nested quote +On September 17 2024 04:50 Nebuchad wrote:On September 17 2024 04:20 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 23:22 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 22:23 PremoBeats wrote:On September 16 2024 21:51 Nebuchad wrote:On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
No Palestinian question
Yes, thus it isn’t racist to say that certain groups are causing issues, when one does not imply that it is because of their ethnicity or that every member of said group has an inherent “problem”.
And that is not what I do when talking about Palestinians. It is what you do when talking about Palestinians though. Otherwise it wouldn't be relevant what some other Palestinians did in in Jordan, no one would care. We can also tell because you've made it very clear that the issue Israel has to deal with is with "Palestinians", and not with any kind of other grouping. I'm a little disappointed, I guess I probably shouldn't be but we were at least approaching your actual reasons for supporting Israel instead of the nonsense that you put forward usually, it's sad to see you walk that back. On September 16 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:
Protestors
I asked people with Stop Apartheid- or genocide-signs what they think is happening in Gaza and why. I listened to their arguments and calmly presented the facts I gave here as well.
I also asked people with “gays/queers for Palestine”-signs if they know how Palestine is treating gay/queer people or how in contrast Israel is dealing with LGTBQ rights.
I asked people who held up “Stop the famine”-signs the same questions/raised the same concerns that are typed out several times in this thread. As you've already established, you understand that none of this is relevant to the protestors, as they're there because they don't want humans to be killed. Your input seems unnecessary. You've also failed to mention at which point in the conversation they expressed to you that they were there because they cherish the Palestinians' way of life and their opposition to western values. I don't have to walk anything back. I never made any notions except demilitarization, re-education, supervision, Israel clearing West Bank settlements similar to Gaza in 05 as well as me saying multiple times that I think that a Palestinian born in Jerusalem should have the a right to a state in Palestine. You don't know these protestors' motivation. You were not in Cologne and neither did you speak to them. The people I talked to were addressing the very things I criticize. Of course you did say it and you're walking it back. You made it very clear that you believe Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, that they're a problem people that Israel has to deal with. Just because you don't write it directly doesn't mean we can't tell, it's the direct consequence of the points you make. And yes you're right I don't know the protestors' motivations, I wasn't there. So, do you reckon I'm wrong? They're not here because they think killing people is bad? I pointed out that it would be stupid to assume that there can mostly be one reason (Islamophobia... like you did in 6174) that makes people not care about Palestinians. I showed, that other reasons can also exist, even for majority countries/governments that share the same faith, to tackle that idiotic notion of Islamophobia. There can be a multitude of reasons like safety concerns, other worries or the simple fact that these Palestinians are collateral in a war, that has an extremely low civilian casualty rate. I know what these people talked with me about. And they were talking about things that don't interest you/which you avoid replying to. Anyway: You know what to do, if you want to address the facts and numbers that shape the reality of this conflict, instead of beating around the bush with these nonsensical side-topics. The part where you say stuff that you don't really believe and then you pretend you're holding your own through stalling and rhetoric I'm not going back to, it was taking too much time. The part where you were saying things that you truly believe, like Palestinians stir up trouble wherever they go, Palestinians are scary people with evil values, and maybe it makes sense that Israel has to deal with them in some way, that was a "new" conversation in the context of this thread and it was at least worth exploring, in my opinion, but only insofar as you don't walk it back whenever it feels convenient to you. I can understand dishonest tactics when you're saying something you don't really believe, but in support of your actual position it's just weird. It is fascinating how you are able to perfectly deduce someone's intentions, motives and beliefs when the person you talk about told you differently several times. Truly magnificent! I mean, yeah... we can merry go round in a never ending circle of supposed and or imagined insinuations and allusions or things that the other never said (again, you paraphrase me utterly wrong and oversimplify/attribute motifs that were/are not there). OR, we can discuss the actual data and numbers as well as the contexts of this conflict. Which - funny enough, not a single person that argued anti-Israel in this thread actually does. Not one of the several people that engaged with me so far, was able to explain how a genocide is possible given the casualty rate we have. Not one person did engage with the fact that the casualty rate was not controlled for natural deaths. That the casualty rate was not controlled for people killed by Hamas. That 10k casualties have not been IDed (did they even exist?). That the casualty rate is immensely low in comparison to similar conflict zones. That there are impossible data behaviors like combatant resurrections as well as women and children casualties exceeding the total numbers of deaths in certain periods. Not one person who declared forced starvation addressed the fact that less than 2% of the trucks were prohibited entry or why. No one addressed the fact that 650 trucks were waiting post-inspection at Kerem Shalom. Or that 50% more aid than necessary entered Gaza as well as Hamas having no more space to store humanitarian aid. Or that Israel has absolutely no obligation nor responsibility to help at all, yet is providing more aid than any other faction before it to the civilian population by another faction they were attacked by. The reality is that these facts do not go well with the narrative. I acknowledged and condemned every war crime or crime that Israel committed, yet not one anti-Israel user here acknowledged a single of the above mentioned things that speak for Israel (correct me if I am wrong on this one... the thread is pretty long and I can't remember every comment) . It seems that you people are hell-bent on painting Israel as an evil entity which contains no good and that is what I start to find comically absurd.
First you say we can't trust the figures whatever reasons. I would add to this bodies not yet found in the rubble that is the entire area.
Then you say the figures (FACTS) that you already pointed out are meaningless, show that the casualty rate is low in comparison to 'similar conflict zones' (this means whatever comparison you want to make because it helps whatever point you are trying to make at the time).
Second bolded bit:
You understand that indefinitely delaying something means it doesn't get added to the list of prohibited aid, right? Israel wasn't prohibiting aid trucks because it was delaying them forever to stop people getting aid.
There you go, that's a bunch of your facts addressed.
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"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them."
NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being.
If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly.
So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit.
The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946
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On September 20 2024 14:46 PremoBeats wrote:
People don't want to talk about these facts. I tried several times, even with Nebuchad.
Arabs are in the police, they are teachers, servce in court and basically every layer of Israeli society. An Arab judge put a former Jewish PM behind bars. They don't want to hear it.
And nice observation on Nebuchad's contradiction in that other post, which wasn't followed up by a plausible explanation until now.
There is no contradiction. KwarK is just being a dick because that's his new demeanor. He has explained his view of the conflict in length in the past, and it doesn't line with yours.
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Northern Ireland22770 Posts
On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946
I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind.
If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan.
If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out
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On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out
You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words.
When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision.
An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless.
Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance.
If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong.
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United States41470 Posts
Why do it? The obvious strategic benefits of crippling their communications as an org.
Why do it today? The battery is about to run out.
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United States41470 Posts
On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:
The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before.
You could know relatively easily. Like you could just google it instead of actively engaging in an argument but prefacing your arguments with an admission of ignorance.
Hezbollah followed the October 7 atrocities last year with their own missile attacks on Northern Israel. 80,000 Israelis were evacuated from the area almost a year ago and 50,000 remain evacuated today.
In the last year they've fired over 7,500 rockets at Israel.
https://www.ajc.org/news/what-you-need-to-know-about-hezbollah-the-anti-israel-terror-group-with-more-firepower-than
https://apnews.com/article/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-evacuees-gaza-war-1841834d89af938a8445821567640aea
It's an active war. Hezbollah fire dozens of rockets per day on average. Tens of thousands of Israelis have been forced from their homes. Wondering if Israel attacked Hezbollah out of the blue for no real reason and speculating that you don't know the reason is like wondering if there was some kind of broader context around the firebombing of Tokyo like maybe some kind of war going on. You should know the answer and also if you don't know the answer you should know enough to learn it before you contribute your opinion.
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Northern Ireland22770 Posts
On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong.
You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’
Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish.
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On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong.
You have strange way of parsing information. The question was whether this was step 1 of a larger strategy (i.e. ground forces entering Lebanon) or not. This SME's opinion is that it was not part of a larger operation, but a standalone one rushed by the ticking clock.
Were he wrong and Israel entered Lebanon tomorrow, that wouldn't mean he is lying or NBC is lying, it's an opinion. Were that to happen, it also wouldn't make the pager explosions more or less defensible. The implication of your post before this one is that Israel would have to immediately invade to "save face" or improve their reputation, which is peak Magic-posting.
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On September 20 2024 22:24 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You have strange way of parsing information. The question was whether this was step 1 of a larger strategy (i.e. ground forces entering Lebanon) or not. This SME's opinion is that it was not part of a larger operation, but a standalone one rushed by the ticking clock. Were he wrong and Israel entered Lebanon tomorrow, that wouldn't mean he is lying or NBC is lying, it's an opinion. Were that to happen, it also wouldn't make the pager explosions more or less defensible. The implication of your post before this one is that Israel would have to immediately invade to "save face" or improve their reputation, which is peak Magic-posting.
Strategic value is when something is a piece to a greater puzzle and doesn't just serve its own purpose. The purpose of this attack is non-strategic, which means there's no puzzle, which means it only served its own purpose. Which means there is no breakdown of communications, because that would count as strategic value. Is that too complicated to understand? Have you played Starcraft before? Is this a forum for strategy players or have I been mistaken about this assumption?
Your attack on me as a person completely fails because all you're doing is exposing your ignorance of what counts as a strategy or as a piece to a strategy. Try less personal attacks in the future, it might help you formulate better arguments.
There is no strategy behind the pager attack, period. It was a one-off and it will be solved and activities will resume as normal. Hezbollah has not stopped attacking Israel. There was no point in the attack and if you claim otherwise you're the one who has to come up with objective evidence to disprove that.
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On September 20 2024 22:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 21:47 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 21:29 WombaT wrote:On September 20 2024 19:31 Magic Powers wrote:"A former senior Israeli security official told NBC News that the devices were detonated not as part of a strategic decision but because the Israeli military was trying to act while it was still possible to use the explosives. “It became a kind of use-it-or-lose-it situation,” the former official said. Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks or directly commented on them." NBC has a good reputation. If they just made this up it would be a pants on fire kind of lie and that's not what they're generally known for. So I'll take this quote as true for the time being. If it is true then there was indeed no strategic purpose to the pager attack, just as logic would dictate. It'd explain why the Israel government remains silent about it even though they usually admit to their attacks very openly. So the only hope Israel has to save face is that NBC is lying for whichever reason. That implies they (Israel's administration) don't care about their reputation, they're just doing whatever the hell they want and their allies continue to be complicit. The hostilities between Israel and Hezbollah have spiked with Israel hitting the South of Lebanon more than 52 times, ignoring US warnings to not escalate. I don't know if Hezbollah's attacks have ramped up or if it's just the same as before. Further escalation seems possible, but for now there are no signs of it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-strikes-lebanon-hezbollah-revenge-device-blasts-nasrallah-rcna171946 I don’t think that necessarily invalidates the overall operation being pursued with some strategic objective in mind. If someone asked ‘why this day, why not that day?’ and ultimately there’s not much difference between the two, saying you didn’t pick the time and a place for a particular reason doesn’t mean there’s not an overarching reason for the overall plan. If I’ve been planning to ask Cynthia from accounts out for months, and do it on a Friday, if a colleague asks me ‘why Friday’ and I respond ‘no particular reason’ it doesn’t mean I wasn’t planning to ask her out You're free to interpret his words whichever way you want, but I'm taking him at his precise words. When Ukraine blew up the Crimean bridge, that was a strategic decision. It would be a strategic decision now, a year ago, at the beginning of the war, at any given point since the beginning of the war it would be considered a strategic decision. There's no point in time when it stops being a strategic decision. An attack that is not strategic is just retaliation. It has no point unless the point can be proven. There is no provable point to the pager attack, I've explained sufficiently why it was pointless. Especially coupled with Israel's silence about the attack, I won't give them the benefit of the doubt on this question. Not a chance, absolutely not a chance. If your point is true, then that person has terrible communication skills. That'd be the conclusion. Not that my interpretation is wrong. You don’t consider the potential strategic value of ‘hey we’ve infiltrated your group to the degree we put bombs into your communications network en masse?’ Setting aside moral qualms, which are obviously valid but another kettle of fish.
Missile attacks are completely unaffected by the pager attack. Hezbollah can just continue the bombardment with no issues. Israel's citizens are no safer than before. No one can disprove that.
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EPT
