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PremoBeats
542 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:27 Magic Powers wrote: Israel is not currently defending itself. It's the aggressor. Huh? Israel defended itself after being attacked on October 7th. They made it clear after being attacked that their aim is to eradicate Hamas, which they are doing at the moment. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:33 PremoBeats wrote: Huh? Israel defended itself after being attacked on October 7th. They made it clear after being attacked that their aim is to eradicate Hamas, which they are doing at the moment. On and after October 7 Israel was defending itself. It's not defending itself right now. Where inside Israel are foreign troops attacking as of this moment? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:31 PremoBeats wrote: Why would I hate someone based on their religion? That's quite the accusation you throw out there... Do you realize what these Palestinian children learn? Did you see the TV shows, the board games? The copies of Mein Kampf? The educational material from Kindergartens and schools? What is your evidence for saying that Israel is indoctrinating children to hate? https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235705010_Palestine_in_Israeli_School-Books_Ideology_and_Propaganda_in_Education_IB_Tauris_2012_London https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/163293 Also don't you have google? I just typed Palestine in israeli schools and that's the first result, it feels like you should be able to do this too? Three minutes into my research I found some more links, there you go: Abu-Saad, I. (2007) ‘The Portrayal of Arabs in Textbooks in the Jewish School System in Israel’, Arab Studies Quarterly 29 (1): 21--38. Bar-Navi, E. (1998) The 20th Century: A History of the People of Israel in the Last Generation for Grades 10–12 (Tel Aviv: Sifrei Tel Aviv). Bar-Tal, D. and Teichman, Y. (2005) Stereotypes and Prejudice in Conflict: Representations of Arabs in Israeli Jewish Society (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press). Firer, R. (2004) ‘The Presentation of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in Israeli History and Civics Textbooks’, in R. Firer and S. Adwan (eds), The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in Israeli History and Civics Textbooks of Both Nations (Hannover: Georg-Eckert-Institute für Internationale Schulbuchforschung, Verlag Hahnsche Buchhandlung). Podeh, E. (2002) The Arab-Israeli Conflict in Israeli History Textbooks, 1948–2000 (Westport, CT: Bergin and Garvey). Here's a cool song sung by Israeli children: Also I have an excuse to listen to this song again (it sounds cool, what can I say) | ||
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Byo
Canada210 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:02 PremoBeats wrote: Similarity in density of population per squaremetre. The thing is that you cannot really compare Gaza to anything before, as there was never a war where terrorists were hiding so shamelessly beneath/in/under/atop civilian infrastructure such as schools, hospitals or religious sites. I once wrote a post on 9gag where I collected some data, but can't find it atm. But you can read up on the issue here. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286 Your hypothetical is... well, a hypothetical. So why don't we stay with the facts and the things we do have? Why do you think that Israel is the bad guy in this conflict? So what was similar in density of population to gaza? What war was it? Is that not concrete, you made the comparison. How many deaths there? Who was the aggressor, how was the power difference there? How was the overall war progressing? What year was it, how was technology at that time, how does all the factors impact whither x amount of deaths were high or low? I would say that it's a concrete fact that if Israel bombed my house, bombed my community, denied me food, killed my family etc, then I'd see them as the bad guys, wouldn't you? Is that not concrete? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22145 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:31 PremoBeats wrote: Imagine thinking there is a level of response between doing nothing and ethnic cleansings...Why would I hate someone based on their religion? That's quite the accusation you throw out there... Do you realize what these Palestinian children learn? Did you see the TV shows, the board games? The copies of Mein Kampf? The educational material from Kindergartens and schools? What is your evidence for saying that Israel is indoctrinating children to hate? What is the manner? Taking precautions no other state or waring organization ever took? Endangering their own troops in the process? So what is your solution? Not retaliate? Leave Hamas to attack again? It is not the IDF's fault that the terrorists are hiding and operating in/around civilian infrastructure... | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13992 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:33 PremoBeats wrote: Huh? Israel defended itself after being attacked on October 7th. They made it clear after being attacked that their aim is to eradicate Hamas, which they are doing at the moment. Thank God history in the region started on October 7th. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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PremoBeats
542 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:41 Magic Powers wrote: On and after October 7 Israel was defending itself. It's not defending itself right now. Where inside Israel are foreign troops attacking as of this moment? Should Israel only defend itself on Israeli soil? After every new attack? Without addressing the root problem? Or what exactly is your suggestion? On August 14 2024 22:48 Nebuchad wrote: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235705010_Palestine_in_Israeli_School-Books_Ideology_and_Propaganda_in_Education_IB_Tauris_2012_London https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/163293 Also don't you have google? I just typed Palestine in israeli schools and that's the first result, it feels like you should be able to do this too? Three minutes into my research I found some more links, there you go: Abu-Saad, I. (2007) ‘The Portrayal of Arabs in Textbooks in the Jewish School System in Israel’, Arab Studies Quarterly 29 (1): 21--38. Bar-Navi, E. (1998) The 20th Century: A History of the People of Israel in the Last Generation for Grades 10–12 (Tel Aviv: Sifrei Tel Aviv). Bar-Tal, D. and Teichman, Y. (2005) Stereotypes and Prejudice in Conflict: Representations of Arabs in Israeli Jewish Society (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press). Firer, R. (2004) ‘The Presentation of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in Israeli History and Civics Textbooks’, in R. Firer and S. Adwan (eds), The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in Israeli History and Civics Textbooks of Both Nations (Hannover: Georg-Eckert-Institute für Internationale Schulbuchforschung, Verlag Hahnsche Buchhandlung). Podeh, E. (2002) The Arab-Israeli Conflict in Israeli History Textbooks, 1948–2000 (Westport, CT: Bergin and Garvey). Here's a cool song sung by Israeli children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV0pEUXMz6M Also I have an excuse to listen to this song again (it sounds cool, what can I say) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbHptBToLfc Did you read your source? Peled-Elhanan says that the history is one-sided or that figures imply certain "realities" not that it instigates hate. Did you see the school books that come out of Palestine? The whole culture surrounding children? Do you realize that the song you posted was a satirical skit to criticize the extreme nationalist rhetoric in Israel? Meaning that inside Israel waves are criticizing Israel? Just to give you a glimpse of the Palestinian side: Minute 12:40 On August 14 2024 22:49 Byo wrote: So what was similar in density of population to gaza? What war was it? Is that not concrete, you made the comparison. How many deaths there? Who was the aggressor, how was the power difference there? How was the overall war progressing? What year was it, how was technology at that time, how does all the factors impact whither x amount of deaths were high or low? I would say that it's a concrete fact that if Israel bombed my house, bombed my community, denied me food, killed my family etc, then I'd see them as the bad guys, wouldn't you? Is that not concrete? As I said, I will need some time to find the post. One conflict zone was Mosul (iirc the other one was Mogadhishu), so it probably was around 2016/2017. Will look for it once I have some time on my hands. On August 14 2024 22:49 Gorsameth wrote: Imagine thinking there is a level of response between doing nothing and ethnic cleansings... I once again ask: What is your solution? Ethnic cleansings - You realize Israel could flaten Gaza including everyone living there in a couple of days with the weapons they have? Displacement is occuring because the IDF was warning the Gazans to move away from the battlefield. On August 14 2024 22:59 Cricketer12 wrote: Thank God history in the region started on October 7th. You really want to go down that rabbit hole? | ||
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PremoBeats
542 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:18 Magic Powers wrote: I think I'm gonna start using the argument that Hamas should be allowed to invade Israel in order to destroy the IDF at the cost of any amount of Israeli casualties, and if the IDF fights back then Hamas is just "defending itself" against IDF aggression. No one made the argument that Israel should be allowed to destroy Hamas at the cost of any amout of Gazan casualties. So your analogy simply is wrong. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:20 PremoBeats wrote: No one made the argument that Israel should be allowed to destroy Hamas at the cost of any amout of Gazan casualties. So your analogy simply is wrong. But that's what Israel is doing. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On August 14 2024 22:31 PremoBeats wrote: Did you read your source? Peled-Elhanan says that the history is one-sided or that figures imply certain "realities" not that it instigates hate. Of course I didn't read it lol. She absolutely says that it instigates hate though, as you (probably) know (but don't care): "In the conclusion of her study on the representation of Palestine/Palestinians in Israeli school books, Nurit Peled-Elhanan maintains that these same books instill racist attitudes and enhance ignorance of “. . . the real social and geopolitical situations and of geographical and historical discourse.” Upon graduation from secondary school, young Israelis are drafted into military service to implement Israeli policies against Palestinians “. . . whose life-world is unknown to them and whose very existence they have been taught to resent and fear” (p. 232). How does Peled-Elhanan arrive at such conclusions?" "Peled-Elhanan demonstrates that all Israeli schoolbooks hold some common assumptions about Palestinians and history. They emphasize Jewish historical rights to the land. Arabs are hateful and a threat to the state. Also, the Arabs have twenty-one states and the Jews have only one. Palestinian citizens are seen as a demographic problem (or threat). The Palestinians in the occupied territories must be controlled, otherwise they will kill Israelis. Therefore the only solution resides in: “A Jewish state, Jewish majority, Israeli control” (p. 21)." In chapter 1, Peled-Elhanan demonstrates how Palestinians are dehumanized, and often depicted in cartoonish and racist language and images. Rather than incorporate the work of revisionist writers, which details the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948, the victims and Arab states are blamed for the nonresolution of the Palestinian refugee question. The texts also convey a simple message: “Since the Palestinians left their land they do not deserve to have it back” (pp. 86–87). Instead of coming to terms with the historical evidence of Plan Dalet, the texts omit the impact of massacres (e.g., Dayr Yasin), instead they present the positive outcome, namely the military power of the Yishuv was strengthened. Chapter 4 shows how these episodes (e.g., massacres and expulsions) are legitimated by their outcome. Hence, despite the unfortunate nature of the events, they are deemed beneficial for Israel. "Peled-Elhanan has produced an exquisitely valuable study. It is both complex and simple. It is a masterful presentation of how ideology enables the state to construct an educational system built on the perpetual exclusion/expulsion of the Palestinian other." French article: https://ujfp.org/interview-de-nurit-peled/ "Selon l’universitaire israélienne Nurit Peled : « L’éducation en Israël forme la société à vivre dans un traumatisme perpétuel ». Spécialiste de l’enseignement des langues, chercheuse sur la thématique du racisme dans le système éducatif israélien et Lauréate du prix Sakharov 2011 du Parlement européen. Elle déclare : « En Israël, il existe une culture raciste qui déshumanise les Palestiniens »." According to the israeli academician Nurit Peled: "Education in Israel trains society to live in a perpetual state of trauma." A specialist of language teaching, researcher in the field of racism in the Israeli educational system and laureate of the Sakharov Prize of the european parliament 2011. She asserts: "In Israel, there is a racist culture that dehumanizes Palestinians." | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22145 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:18 PremoBeats wrote: Funny you mention displacement. Because that is covered by Ethnic cleansing...Should Israel only defend itself on Israeli soil? After every new attack? Without addressing the root problem? Or what exactly is your suggestion? Did you read your source? Peled-Elhanan says that the history is one-sided or that figures imply certain "realities" not that it instigates hate. Did you see the school books that come out of Palestine? The whole culture surrounding children? Do you realize that the song you posted was a satirical skit to criticize the extreme nationalist rhetoric in Israel? Meaning that inside Israel waves are criticizing Israel? Just to give you a glimpse of the Palestinian side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrhzDBvhEc&t=761s Minute 12:40 As I said, I will need some time to find the post. One conflict zone was Mosul (iirc the other one was Mogadhishu), so it probably was around 2016/2017. Will look for it once I have some time on my hands. I once again ask: What is your solution? Ethnic cleansings - You realize Israel could flaten Gaza including everyone living there in a couple of days with the weapons they have? Displacement is occuring because the IDF was warning the Gazans to move away from the battlefield. You really want to go down that rabbit hole? Also the notion that Israel can't be engaged in Ethnic cleansing (or Genocide) because they could be killing Palestinians faster then they current are is not an argument against Israel's actions. Israel is killing Palestinians as fast as they think they can get away with. | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7733 Posts
I also find it interesting how one can consider Israeli civilian casualties to be so condemnable and at the same time consider Palestinian civilian casualties as justified. | ||
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PremoBeats
542 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:34 Nebuchad wrote: Of course I didn't read it lol. She absolutely says that it instigates hate though, as you (probably) know (but don't care): "In the conclusion of her study on the representation of Palestine/Palestinians in Israeli school books, Nurit Peled-Elhanan maintains that these same books instill racist attitudes and enhance ignorance of “. . . the real social and geopolitical situations and of geographical and historical discourse.” Upon graduation from secondary school, young Israelis are drafted into military service to implement Israeli policies against Palestinians “. . . whose life-world is unknown to them and whose very existence they have been taught to resent and fear” (p. 232). How does Peled-Elhanan arrive at such conclusions?" "Peled-Elhanan demonstrates that all Israeli schoolbooks hold some common assumptions about Palestinians and history. They emphasize Jewish historical rights to the land. Arabs are hateful and a threat to the state. Also, the Arabs have twenty-one states and the Jews have only one. Palestinian citizens are seen as a demographic problem (or threat). The Palestinians in the occupied territories must be controlled, otherwise they will kill Israelis. Therefore the only solution resides in: “A Jewish state, Jewish majority, Israeli control” (p. 21)." In chapter 1, Peled-Elhanan demonstrates how Palestinians are dehumanized, and often depicted in cartoonish and racist language and images. Rather than incorporate the work of revisionist writers, which details the expulsion of Palestinians in 1948, the victims and Arab states are blamed for the nonresolution of the Palestinian refugee question. The texts also convey a simple message: “Since the Palestinians left their land they do not deserve to have it back” (pp. 86–87). Instead of coming to terms with the historical evidence of Plan Dalet, the texts omit the impact of massacres (e.g., Dayr Yasin), instead they present the positive outcome, namely the military power of the Yishuv was strengthened. Chapter 4 shows how these episodes (e.g., massacres and expulsions) are legitimated by their outcome. Hence, despite the unfortunate nature of the events, they are deemed beneficial for Israel. "Peled-Elhanan has produced an exquisitely valuable study. It is both complex and simple. It is a masterful presentation of how ideology enables the state to construct an educational system built on the perpetual exclusion/expulsion of the Palestinian other." French article: https://ujfp.org/interview-de-nurit-peled/ "Selon l’universitaire israélienne Nurit Peled : « L’éducation en Israël forme la société à vivre dans un traumatisme perpétuel ». Spécialiste de l’enseignement des langues, chercheuse sur la thématique du racisme dans le système éducatif israélien et Lauréate du prix Sakharov 2011 du Parlement européen. Elle déclare : « En Israël, il existe une culture raciste qui déshumanise les Palestiniens »." According to the israeli academician Nurit Peled: "Education in Israel trains society to live in a perpetual state of trauma." A specialist of language teaching, researcher in the field of racism in the Israeli educational system and laureate of the Sakharov Prize of the european parliament 2011. She asserts: "In Israel, there is a racist culture that dehumanizes Palestinians." So each and every one of your sources is by Peled-Elhanan? I mean that is fine, but also very one-sided. It is often discussed how she is overly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and disregarding security concerns for Israel. Did you watch the video I posted? Do you accept that the video you posted is satirical criticism directed at Israel from Israelis? Funny you mention displacement. Because that is covered by Ethnic cleansing... Also the notion that Israel can't be engaged in Ethnic cleansing (or Genocide) because they could be killing Palestinians faster then they current are is not an argument against Israel's actions. Israel is killing Palestinians as fast as they think they can get away with. Yes, that is why I mentioned it, lol. There is no way to fight Hamas without displacing people. That is the basis for these unfounded accusations of genocide that the numbers doesn't reflect in the slightest. "Israel has made over 70,000 direct phones calls, sent over 13 million text messages and left over 15 million pre-recorded voicemails to notify civilians that they should leave combat areas, where they should go, and what route they should take." And we now enter unsubstantiated accusations. Are you aware of ANY other nation or war faring group that made the effort Israel did with text messages, broadcasts, pamphletes, etc. that endangered their own troops? Even in the slightest? | ||
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PremoBeats
542 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:52 PoulsenB wrote: Israel's goal of eradicating hamas completely is unrealistic. Even if they break the hamas as a functional organisation, a new one will take its place, especially after all the death and destruction they are currently inflicing on the Palestinians in Gaza. I also find it interesting how one can consider Israeli civilian casualties to be so condemnable and at the same time consider Palestinian civilian casualties as justified. ` Well. Hamas attacked on October 7th and targeted civilians directly while the Palestinian casualties are collateral (still horrible, but there is a clear distinction... there can't be no justification for the Hamas targeting, while there can be for the collateral in Palestine). Further: I think no one here even made the notion that you put up for discussion. If it was open war and the civilians of Israel would be collateral, one would need to accept that. But they were not collateral.. to kill them was the goal. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:55 PremoBeats wrote: So each and every one of your sources is by Peled-Elhanan? I mean that is fine, but also very one-sided. It is often discussed how she is overly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and disregarding security concerns for Israel. No, as you can see because you have eyes, I also posted some other works by other people. I also didn't need any of these sources because I don't need an academician to tell me that if a group continues to oppress another group for seventy-five years, they must develop an education system where that other group is dehumanized. You see, Israelis are human beings, they behave like humans. They're not going to have an antiracist educational system and then at 18 years old suddenly start to hate Palestinians enough to continue to enact Apartheid policies on them, that is not how humans work. You on the other hand had absolutely no sources to support your position that Israelis aren't taught to hate Palestinians, which, I must stress once again, wouldn't make any sense. But again I must stress that while I enjoy doing this, I'm not under the impression that I'm destroying your world view in any way, because of course I don't believe that you care about hatred in education, you were just saying that. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23732 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:58 PremoBeats wrote: ` Well. Hamas attacked on October 7th and targeted civilians directly while the Palestinian casualties are collateral (still horrible, but there is a clear distinction... there can't be no justification for the Hamas targeting, while there can be for the collateral in Palestine). Further: I think no one here even made the notion that you put up for discussion. If it was open war and the civilians of Israel would be collateral, one would need to accept that. But they were not collateral.. to kill them was the goal. It was the most effective attack against Israeli military targets in decades and most of the civilian casualties (unclear how many were actually killed by Israel) were from a party that they didn't expect to be at their LZ. It's not any less reasonable to argue that the Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7 were collateral damage than the ~15,000 children Israel has killed. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12417 Posts
On August 14 2024 23:55 PremoBeats wrote: Do you accept that the video you posted is satirical criticism directed at Israel from Israelis? I can't believe I just took five minutes to check this and... it isn't? This was posted by The Civil Front, which is not critical of Israel. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/clip-of-israeli-kids-singing-of-wiping-out-nations-enemies-elicits-outrage/ https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770867 | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7733 Posts
On August 15 2024 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote: It was the most effective attack against Israeli military targets in decades and most of the civilian casualties (unclear how many were actually killed by Israel) were from a party that they didn't expect to be at their LZ. It's not any less reasonable to argue that the Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7 were collateral damage than the ~15,000 children Israel has killed. I would also add that knowingly bombing civilian targets because they allegedly house hamas fighters hardly counts as collateral, in the 'accidental death' sense. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9790 Posts
On August 15 2024 00:25 PoulsenB wrote: I would also add that knowingly bombing civilian targets because they allegedly house hamas fighters hardly counts as collateral, in the 'accidental death' sense. At this point its recognized that collateral is a euphemism that doesn't mean 'accidental death'. It means they happened to be there when other people were getting killed and its just too hard not to brutally murder innocent civilians so we won't bother with that whole thing. PR speak pioneered by the west, because frankly Arabs would proudly display all their civilian casualties. There's no actual difference in how war is carried out by different peoples, just a difference in how we speak about it. Israel is just as capable of mass torture, randomly and indiscriminately killing civilians, and generally acting like a bunch of horrible, hellbound cunts as America is, as the Arabs are and as anyone else at war is. | ||
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