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"I simply said it the way I did, because of this comment of yours:
"It is unacceptable that one side gets to play the victim when the other doesn't" "
And I responded to that, so what is your response? Are Palestinians victims just like Israelis are victims, yes or no?
"Wait, what? I wouldn't judge the actions of the Israeli government in comparison to specifically targeting civilians with murder, rape and taking hostages less if I didn't have prejudices? What do prejudices have to with making the statement that war and terrorism are different things and have to be judged differently? That doesn't make any sense.
Or are you saying that specifically targeting civilians in an act of terror is comparable to waging war?"
This war by Israel specifically is absolutely comparable to the atrocity committed by Hamas on October 7. It's in the same ballpark with far greater numbers of civilians killed and an equal level of pointlessness. There is nothing to be gained from a continuation of this war, it is absolutely far too brutal on the Palestinian population and it should be globally condemned to the utmost. I call it a revenge war, as there is nothing productive or just about it. It's a pure expression of hatred. That's the same hatred Hamas has expressed on October 7 with the mass killing of Israelis. Effectively the acts of aggression from Hamas and from the IDF are equal and cannot be considered different. It is mass murder in both cases.
"I never said that only one side is a victim, but I can make it clear: Both sides have loses and are victims, but every conflict that escalated with thousands of dead in the past 10 years was because the Gazans either shot rockets, invaded Israel or attacked Israel or its citizens in some form or way."
You can paint this the other way around just the same. Every attack coming from Gaza is a response to Israeli aggression. If you think otherwise then you haven't been paying attention to the events over the last decades and you may not even understand the beginning of the conflict either.
"Well, why did Israel dismantle the most important human rights organization? Why did it withhold aid?"
Because they lied. They made an elephant out of the mouse in order to destroy the UNRWA. This was purely nepharious, it was an act of collective punishment. The UNRWA was cleared by other countries and aid has resumed. Israel has never produced evidence for their wild accusations. We can't believe Israel's administration, they are liars.
"Why did it kill so many innocent people? You are asking these questions as if they happen in a vacuum.
Ask yourself, what the accute pressure of Hamas was for attacking, except hatred and terrorism as well as the annihilation of Israel?"
For the same reason why Hamas has killed so many innocent people, too. Hatred. This war is not about solving a problem. It's driven by hatred. Palestinians are treated like subhumans by Israel's administration, they consider them worthy of death and eradication, nothing more.
You're not looking at Israel's actions objectively if you argue they're not acting out of hatred. This war solves nothing, it further escalated the conflict and it will lead to more deaths on both sides. Nothing good can come of it. Just as Hamas fail to grasp the futility of their actions, so does Netanyahu. They're evil people acting entirely out of self-interest. Netanyahu doesn't care about Israeli lives any more than Hamas care about Palestinian lives, as proven by the fact that he embraces the deaths of IDF soldiers in this pointless war. He is exactly like Putin.
Israelis don't want this war. Netanyahu loves this war. You need to understand this distinction.
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On August 15 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
It is completely fine to debunk stuff that isn't true (I think we all strive towards a "truer" form of living).
Yet I think that the debunking in the West nowadays mostly should be directed at all the clueless Free Palestine supporters that make comparisons to an Apartheid state, defend the barbaric actions of terrorists and cherish a way of life that is utterly incompatible with Western values. Many of these supporters are in complete denial in regards to all the effort Israel takes to minimize casualties in an utterly ungrateful war against terrorists in of the densly populated areas on this planet.
Seriously, it is beyond me how some can make accusation of a racially loaded Apartheid when the PA self-governs in the West Bank and Gaza has full autonomy under Hamas. Not only that, but Muslim Arabs penetrate every layer of Israel society from police over army to judges.
So just to sum up, our conversation went like this:
- I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it.
- No I don't, I just hate terrorism and children being taught to hate.
- Israel also does terrorism and teaches children to hate.
- (Immediately dropping the terrorism part) Provide some evidence of Israel teaching children to hate
- Ok here's a bunch of evidence.
- That's only one person! (It's not) and that other thing is satire.
- Let me do some research I don't think it's satire, why do you think it is?
- It came to me in a dream that it was satire.
- Well it isn't, so I guess that covers the Israel teaching children to hate part. So Israel does both of the things that you hate about Hamas, and you still support it.
- "UTTERLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH WESTERN VALUES"
...
- ...I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it.
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On August 15 2024 05:41 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 05:04 Cricketer12 wrote:
No one in here agrees that Hamas should stay or hold any real power. The issues comes in with how we tackle the indoctrination of the Palestinian people. It's a very simple reality that treating someone as an enemy, as an other, will turn them into one. The Palestinian people don't currently have the luxury to recognize how atrocious Hamas is because the occupation already makes their lives miserable.
Therefore you either need to kill them all or stop making their lives hell, throw them a bone or two, because clearly a mere ceasefire while good at providing a cessation to the increased rate of slaughter, does not resolve the conflict long term. Stop making their lives hell? Serious question: Have you ever been to the middle-east? Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 05:11 WombaT wrote:On August 15 2024 04:44 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 02:01 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 01:48 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 14 2024 23:58 PremoBeats wrote:On August 14 2024 23:52 PoulsenB wrote:
Israel's goal of eradicating hamas completely is unrealistic. Even if they break the hamas as a functional organisation, a new one will take its place, especially after all the death and destruction they are currently inflicing on the Palestinians in Gaza.
I also find it interesting how one can consider Israeli civilian casualties to be so condemnable and at the same time consider Palestinian civilian casualties as justified. ` Well. Hamas attacked on October 7th and targeted civilians directly while the Palestinian casualties are collateral (still horrible, but there is a clear distinction... there can't be no justification for the Hamas targeting, while there can be for the collateral in Palestine). Further: I think no one here even made the notion that you put up for discussion. If it was open war and the civilians of Israel would be collateral, one would need to accept that. But they were not collateral.. to kill them was the goal. It was the most effective attack against Israeli military targets in decades and most of the civilian casualties (unclear how many were actually killed by Israel) were from a party that they didn't expect to be at their LZ. It's not any less reasonable to argue that the Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7 were collateral damage than the ~15,000 children Israel has killed. So what if the party wasn't expected to be there? Eyewitnesses (of a peace festival) reported targeted/intentional attacks on civilians. There is nothing collateral about this, not even in the most mental gymnastic pro Hamas perspective. 300 soldiers to 1,2k-1,4k is an abyssmal Soldier-Civilian-Ratio even if it was collateral (1:2,6 to 3,6) So This was aired first on Kan11 like the guy from your link explains. The video was part of Eretz Nehederet, which is a... satirical comedy show. They took it down after receiving criticism. No idea how your two other sources arrive at the idea that it was posted by The Civic Front (perhaps they reposted it because they thought it would aid their cause, who knows), but its satiric nature is obvious. Do you think that the several clips from my video seem so obviously over the top satirical? I can't find the notion that it was posted by Eretz Nehederet anywhere, everyone seems in agreement that it was the Civil Front. Here's another one: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gazaBy the way Eretz Nehederet is also pro-Israel, and is the group that posted this shit Hard to believe they would then turn and do "satire" of the far right groups of Israel, which, by the way, what's the satire? It's a group of children singing about annihilating Gaza, where's the part where we understand it's bad? Look at the comments under the articles, the far right people are in agreement with it, they're not like "Well obviously this is satire we are not like this". The guy says it in the link you posted. But yeah.. I mean you found another over the top sketch they did. But they always produce over the top stuff... not only pro-Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-pans-satirical-tv-show-over-sketch-that-upset-holocaust-survivor/Well, satire can be over-acting an issue, which is displayed in the link you posted. But to come back to how we even got here: hate in children... Did you see the clips of kid's shows, boardgames and puzzles? The educational content? Physics being taught with slingshots shooting at "soldiers of the Zionist occupation"? Reading comprehensions glorifinyg terrorists who instigated massacres where children were killed? Math equations involving the counting of Martyrs? Do you seriously believe that this is in any way comparable to how Israel educates their youth? On August 15 2024 02:13 Magic Powers wrote:
"Collateral" is a completely inappropriate term in the case of an aggressive war. This entire war has been avoidable for the last 9-10 months, thus the civilian casualties can't reasonably be counted as "collateral". The implication of "collateral" is that the deaths can't be reasonably avoided, but that argument fails because this war of aggression is entirely avoidable with a long term ceasefire. Hamas poses no realistic threat, otherwise 95% of the war wouldn't have taken place entirely in Gaza. Even Iran and Hezbollah can't pose a threat despite the IDF being tangled up in this war of aggression. The warmonger and mass murderer Netanyahu must go. Your solution is that Israel simply has to take the occassional murdering of their citizens, cause Hamas begs for a ceasefire the moment they realize how fucked they are? So what if Hamas is no realistic threat... they attacked, now they will receive the consequences. Or the population will learn to get rid of the radical currents via a civil war and someone who can make lasting peace with Israel gets eleceted. Either way, what kind of signal would it send to the other threats of Israel, when they won't even hit back the suppossedly weakest adversary. That’s not how the conflict is going though, or indeed the past few decades of it? Israel isn’t going to win hearts and minds, it knows this so it’s just bombing people into the ground. It’s happy doing this as a state. It’s happy incentivising and protecting settlers encroaching into the ever-decreasing amounts of land they’re ostensibly holding rights to. Equally war doesn’t present many good options, so in that sense sure. But given the Israeli state is actively expanding its holdings simultaneously the idea that all of these events are purely defensive actions is completely untenable What do you mean that this is not how the conflict went? I agree that some of the expansions are a provocation, but unlawful? The Gaza strip was not recognized as part of any sovereign state prior to 67. The West Bank - looking at 67 - is more complex as Jordan had control over it, but mostly was occupying the region themselves and was not a sovereign. Thus legally, one can argue that Gaza and the West Bank are disputed, not occupied territories and settling there is justfiable, if only looking at 67. The Golan Heights were Syrian territory before 67. BUT: All three disputed regions have fallen under uti possidetis juris when Israel declared independence as this whole area was under British mandate. So when these regions were taken by the Arab states after independence, Israel simply took them back a couple of decades later. Or would you argue that Ukraine is occupying Crimea when they retake it in a couple of years from Russia as well?
Multiple times, yes.
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On August 15 2024 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:
"I simply said it the way I did, because of this comment of yours:
"It is unacceptable that one side gets to play the victim when the other doesn't" "
And I responded to that, so what is your response? Are Palestinians victims just like Israelis are victims, yes or no?
As I said multiple times: yes.
On August 15 2024 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:
This war by Israel specifically is absolutely comparable to the atrocity committed by Hamas on October 7. It's in the same ballpark with far greater numbers of civilians killed and an equal level of pointlessness. There is nothing to be gained from a continuation of this war, it is absolutely far too brutal on the Palestinian population and it should be globally condemned to the utmost. I call it a revenge war, as there is nothing productive or just about it. It's a pure expression of hatred. That's the same hatred Hamas has expressed on October 7 with the mass killing of Israelis. Effectively the acts of aggression from Hamas and from the IDF are equal and cannot be considered different. It is mass murder in both cases.
Ok, cool. Agree to disagree. I don't think that deliberately targetting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages is comparable to collateral.
Do you accept that Israel did more than any waring faction in the history of the planet to inform and protect the Palestinian population?
"I never said that only one side is a victim, but I can make it clear: Both sides have loses and are victims, but every conflict that escalated with thousands of dead in the past 10 years was because the Gazans either shot rockets, invaded Israel or attacked Israel or its citizens in some form or way."
You can paint this the other way around just the same. Every attack coming from Gaza is a response to Israeli aggression. If you think otherwise then you haven't been paying attention to the events over the last decades and you may not even understand the beginning of the conflict either.
So making "unlawful" settlements or setting up check points in a population that is infested with terrorists give the right to constantly shoot rockets, invade and attack civilians?
"Well, why did Israel dismantle the most important human rights organization? Why did it withhold aid?"
Because they lied. They made an elephant out of the mouse in order to destroy the UNRWA. This was purely nepharious, it was an act of collective punishment. The UNRWA was cleared by other countries and aid has resumed. Israel has never produced evidence for their wild accusations. We can't believe Israel's administration, they are liars.
So these are all lies? You watched at all the documented evidence and it all have been lies?
https://www.impact-se.org/reports/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-suspends-gaza-worker-elected-to-hamas-leadership/
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/unrwa-confirms-hamas-rockets-found-in-one-of-its-schools-363616
https://www.impact-se.org/reports/palestinian-textbooks/
http://www.israelbehindthenews.com/unrwa-schoolbooks-promote-jihad-martyrdom-and-antisemitism/18922/
https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/unrwa-textbooks-where-is-the-oversight/
"Why did it kill so many innocent people? You are asking these questions as if they happen in a vacuum.
Ask yourself, what the accute pressure of Hamas was for attacking, except hatred and terrorism as well as the annihilation of Israel?"
For the same reason why Hamas has killed so many innocent people, too. Hatred. This war is not about solving a problem. It's driven by hatred. Palestinians are treated like subhumans by Israel's administration, they consider them worthy of death and eradication, nothing more.
You're not looking at Israel's actions objectively if you argue they're not acting out of hatred. This war solves nothing, it further escalated the conflict and it will lead to more deaths on both sides. Nothing good can come of it. Just as Hamas fail to grasp the futility of their actions, so does Netanyahu. They're evil people acting entirely out of self-interest. Netanyahu doesn't care about Israeli lives any more than Hamas care about Palestinian lives, as proven by the fact that he embraces the deaths of IDF soldiers in this pointless war. He is exactly like Putin.
Same reasoning as above: Agree to disagree. I don't think that deliberately targetting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages is comparable to collateral.
On August 15 2024 22:19 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
It is completely fine to debunk stuff that isn't true (I think we all strive towards a "truer" form of living).
Yet I think that the debunking in the West nowadays mostly should be directed at all the clueless Free Palestine supporters that make comparisons to an Apartheid state, defend the barbaric actions of terrorists and cherish a way of life that is utterly incompatible with Western values. Many of these supporters are in complete denial in regards to all the effort Israel takes to minimize casualties in an utterly ungrateful war against terrorists in of the densly populated areas on this planet.
Seriously, it is beyond me how some can make accusation of a racially loaded Apartheid when the PA self-governs in the West Bank and Gaza has full autonomy under Hamas. Not only that, but Muslim Arabs penetrate every layer of Israel society from police over army to judges.
So just to sum up, our conversation went like this: - I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it. - No I don't, I just hate terrorism and children being taught to hate. - Israel also does terrorism and teaches children to hate. - (Immediately dropping the terrorism part) Provide some evidence of Israel teaching children to hate - Ok here's a bunch of evidence. - That's only one person! (It's not) and that other thing is satire. - Let me do some research I don't think it's satire, why do you think it is? - It came to me in a dream that it was satire. - Well it isn't, so I guess that covers the Israel teaching children to hate part. So Israel does both of the things that you hate about Hamas, and you still support it. - "UTTERLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH WESTERN VALUES" ... - ...I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it.
Cool. If you think that my reasonings portray this, fine by me. Deliberate attacks on civilians are not committed by Israel. They did more than any waring faction in the history to prevent civilian casualties.
The "evidence" you provided - in my opinion, it is fine if yours is different - does not compare to the textbooks by Palestinians. Plus, Israel gets called out for it by their own people, while there are not oppossing voices heard from Palestine. Moynihan Law at work.
On August 15 2024 22:22 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 05:41 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 05:04 Cricketer12 wrote:
No one in here agrees that Hamas should stay or hold any real power. The issues comes in with how we tackle the indoctrination of the Palestinian people. It's a very simple reality that treating someone as an enemy, as an other, will turn them into one. The Palestinian people don't currently have the luxury to recognize how atrocious Hamas is because the occupation already makes their lives miserable.
Therefore you either need to kill them all or stop making their lives hell, throw them a bone or two, because clearly a mere ceasefire while good at providing a cessation to the increased rate of slaughter, does not resolve the conflict long term. Stop making their lives hell? Serious question: Have you ever been to the middle-east? On August 15 2024 05:11 WombaT wrote:On August 15 2024 04:44 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 02:01 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 01:48 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 14 2024 23:58 PremoBeats wrote:On August 14 2024 23:52 PoulsenB wrote:
Israel's goal of eradicating hamas completely is unrealistic. Even if they break the hamas as a functional organisation, a new one will take its place, especially after all the death and destruction they are currently inflicing on the Palestinians in Gaza.
I also find it interesting how one can consider Israeli civilian casualties to be so condemnable and at the same time consider Palestinian civilian casualties as justified. ` Well. Hamas attacked on October 7th and targeted civilians directly while the Palestinian casualties are collateral (still horrible, but there is a clear distinction... there can't be no justification for the Hamas targeting, while there can be for the collateral in Palestine). Further: I think no one here even made the notion that you put up for discussion. If it was open war and the civilians of Israel would be collateral, one would need to accept that. But they were not collateral.. to kill them was the goal. It was the most effective attack against Israeli military targets in decades and most of the civilian casualties (unclear how many were actually killed by Israel) were from a party that they didn't expect to be at their LZ. It's not any less reasonable to argue that the Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7 were collateral damage than the ~15,000 children Israel has killed. So what if the party wasn't expected to be there? Eyewitnesses (of a peace festival) reported targeted/intentional attacks on civilians. There is nothing collateral about this, not even in the most mental gymnastic pro Hamas perspective. 300 soldiers to 1,2k-1,4k is an abyssmal Soldier-Civilian-Ratio even if it was collateral (1:2,6 to 3,6) So This was aired first on Kan11 like the guy from your link explains. The video was part of Eretz Nehederet, which is a... satirical comedy show. They took it down after receiving criticism. No idea how your two other sources arrive at the idea that it was posted by The Civic Front (perhaps they reposted it because they thought it would aid their cause, who knows), but its satiric nature is obvious. Do you think that the several clips from my video seem so obviously over the top satirical? I can't find the notion that it was posted by Eretz Nehederet anywhere, everyone seems in agreement that it was the Civil Front. Here's another one: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gazaBy the way Eretz Nehederet is also pro-Israel, and is the group that posted this shit Hard to believe they would then turn and do "satire" of the far right groups of Israel, which, by the way, what's the satire? It's a group of children singing about annihilating Gaza, where's the part where we understand it's bad? Look at the comments under the articles, the far right people are in agreement with it, they're not like "Well obviously this is satire we are not like this". The guy says it in the link you posted. But yeah.. I mean you found another over the top sketch they did. But they always produce over the top stuff... not only pro-Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-pans-satirical-tv-show-over-sketch-that-upset-holocaust-survivor/Well, satire can be over-acting an issue, which is displayed in the link you posted. But to come back to how we even got here: hate in children... Did you see the clips of kid's shows, boardgames and puzzles? The educational content? Physics being taught with slingshots shooting at "soldiers of the Zionist occupation"? Reading comprehensions glorifinyg terrorists who instigated massacres where children were killed? Math equations involving the counting of Martyrs? Do you seriously believe that this is in any way comparable to how Israel educates their youth? On August 15 2024 02:13 Magic Powers wrote:
"Collateral" is a completely inappropriate term in the case of an aggressive war. This entire war has been avoidable for the last 9-10 months, thus the civilian casualties can't reasonably be counted as "collateral". The implication of "collateral" is that the deaths can't be reasonably avoided, but that argument fails because this war of aggression is entirely avoidable with a long term ceasefire. Hamas poses no realistic threat, otherwise 95% of the war wouldn't have taken place entirely in Gaza. Even Iran and Hezbollah can't pose a threat despite the IDF being tangled up in this war of aggression. The warmonger and mass murderer Netanyahu must go. Your solution is that Israel simply has to take the occassional murdering of their citizens, cause Hamas begs for a ceasefire the moment they realize how fucked they are? So what if Hamas is no realistic threat... they attacked, now they will receive the consequences. Or the population will learn to get rid of the radical currents via a civil war and someone who can make lasting peace with Israel gets eleceted. Either way, what kind of signal would it send to the other threats of Israel, when they won't even hit back the suppossedly weakest adversary. That’s not how the conflict is going though, or indeed the past few decades of it? Israel isn’t going to win hearts and minds, it knows this so it’s just bombing people into the ground. It’s happy doing this as a state. It’s happy incentivising and protecting settlers encroaching into the ever-decreasing amounts of land they’re ostensibly holding rights to. Equally war doesn’t present many good options, so in that sense sure. But given the Israeli state is actively expanding its holdings simultaneously the idea that all of these events are purely defensive actions is completely untenable What do you mean that this is not how the conflict went? I agree that some of the expansions are a provocation, but unlawful? The Gaza strip was not recognized as part of any sovereign state prior to 67. The West Bank - looking at 67 - is more complex as Jordan had control over it, but mostly was occupying the region themselves and was not a sovereign. Thus legally, one can argue that Gaza and the West Bank are disputed, not occupied territories and settling there is justfiable, if only looking at 67. The Golan Heights were Syrian territory before 67. BUT: All three disputed regions have fallen under uti possidetis juris when Israel declared independence as this whole area was under British mandate. So when these regions were taken by the Arab states after independence, Israel simply took them back a couple of decades later. Or would you argue that Ukraine is occupying Crimea when they retake it in a couple of years from Russia as well? Multiple times, yes.
Wow, I never thought to have pro-Russian forces here that view Crimea as part of Russia. Interesting take.
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Are you not aware of the allegations made by the Israeli administration? They said thousands of workers had ties to Hamas. So far not a shred of evidence for that claim was produced.
The settlements are not "unlawful", they're unlawful. No quotation marks. Every single settlement in the West bank is a war crime. All of them are illegal. Yet Israel keeps stealing more land, i.e. committing more war crimes. They're actively engaging in ethnic cleansing.
Lastly, Hamas targeting civilians actively is no different from IDF targeting civilians actively. They're both doing it deliberately, with complete purpose. The only difference is that Hamas states their intent outright while the Israeli administration lies about it.
Actions speak louder than words.
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On August 16 2024 01:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Are you not aware of the allegations made by the Israeli administration? They said thousands of workers had ties to Hamas. So far not a shred of evidence for that claim was produced.
The settlements are not "unlawful", they're unlawful. No quotation marks. Every single settlement in the West bank is a war crime. All of them are illegal. Yet Israel keeps stealing more land, i.e. committing more war crimes. They're actively engaging in ethnic cleansing.
Lastly, Hamas targeting civilians actively is no different from IDF targeting civilians actively. They're both doing it deliberately, with complete purpose. The only difference is that Hamas states their intent outright while the Israeli administration lies about it.
Actions speak louder than words.
You deliberately are evading the question if Israel did more than any other faction at war to prevent casualties through multiple devices (call, text messages, pamphlets, radio and tv transmision).
How are these settlements in the West Bank unlawful?
They were either Israeli territory after the declaration of independence according to uti possidetis juris.
Or they were occupied by Jordan who were no sovereign. You are only not allowed to settle on occupied land, but if Jordan was never the sovereign to begin with, the land is not occupied. So how exactly are the West Bank settlements unlawful?
And even if they were unlawful: Does that really justify launching rockets, invading Israel and deliberately targeting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages?
For the 1000th time: Collateral and delibate targeting are different things. That the IDF are deliberately targeting civilians is a lie. Does it happen? Probably, but in no relative scale comparable to the terrorism by Hamas. If you can't accept that: Agree to disagree.
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On August 16 2024 01:21 PremoBeats wrote:
Cool. If you think that my reasonings portray this, fine by me. Deliberate attacks on civilians are not committed by Israel. They did more than any waring faction in the history to prevent civilian casualties.
The "evidence" you provided - in my opinion, it is fine if yours is different - does not compare to the textbooks by Palestinians. Plus, Israel gets called out for it by their own people, while there are not oppossing voices heard from Palestine. Moynihan Law at work.
As you (should) know, Israel deliberately targets civilians every day. The artificial intelligence (Lavender) that they use to choose targets has been coded, voluntarily, to think that it's okay to kill up to 20 civilians in order to hit someone who is vaguely associated with Hamas. These people were also systematically targeted at their homes, often at night, which means that their family had to be present. They call this practice "Where's Daddy", which showcases that cruelty is the point.
And that's for a random person that may or may not have helped Hamas in a small way. For a value target like a terrorist, the artificial intelligence thinks it's okay to kill hundreds of civilians.
https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
This isn't something where we can agree to disagree, you're arguing against factual reality. The only way that this isn't deliberate killing of civilians is if these civilians are not viewed as people, presumably due to some form of bias against their identity.
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On August 16 2024 01:21 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:
"I simply said it the way I did, because of this comment of yours:
"It is unacceptable that one side gets to play the victim when the other doesn't" "
And I responded to that, so what is your response? Are Palestinians victims just like Israelis are victims, yes or no?
As I said multiple times: yes. Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:
This war by Israel specifically is absolutely comparable to the atrocity committed by Hamas on October 7. It's in the same ballpark with far greater numbers of civilians killed and an equal level of pointlessness. There is nothing to be gained from a continuation of this war, it is absolutely far too brutal on the Palestinian population and it should be globally condemned to the utmost. I call it a revenge war, as there is nothing productive or just about it. It's a pure expression of hatred. That's the same hatred Hamas has expressed on October 7 with the mass killing of Israelis. Effectively the acts of aggression from Hamas and from the IDF are equal and cannot be considered different. It is mass murder in both cases.
Ok, cool. Agree to disagree. I don't think that deliberately targetting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages is comparable to collateral. Do you accept that Israel did more than any waring faction in the history of the planet to inform and protect the Palestinian population? Show nested quote +
"I never said that only one side is a victim, but I can make it clear: Both sides have loses and are victims, but every conflict that escalated with thousands of dead in the past 10 years was because the Gazans either shot rockets, invaded Israel or attacked Israel or its citizens in some form or way."
You can paint this the other way around just the same. Every attack coming from Gaza is a response to Israeli aggression. If you think otherwise then you haven't been paying attention to the events over the last decades and you may not even understand the beginning of the conflict either.
So making "unlawful" settlements or setting up check points in a population that is infested with terrorists give the right to constantly shoot rockets, invade and attack civilians? Show nested quote +
"Well, why did Israel dismantle the most important human rights organization? Why did it withhold aid?"
Because they lied. They made an elephant out of the mouse in order to destroy the UNRWA. This was purely nepharious, it was an act of collective punishment. The UNRWA was cleared by other countries and aid has resumed. Israel has never produced evidence for their wild accusations. We can't believe Israel's administration, they are liars.
So these are all lies? You watched at all the documented evidence and it all have been lies? https://www.impact-se.org/reports/https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-suspends-gaza-worker-elected-to-hamas-leadership/https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/unrwa-confirms-hamas-rockets-found-in-one-of-its-schools-363616https://www.impact-se.org/reports/palestinian-textbooks/http://www.israelbehindthenews.com/unrwa-schoolbooks-promote-jihad-martyrdom-and-antisemitism/18922/https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/unrwa-textbooks-where-is-the-oversight/Show nested quote +
"Why did it kill so many innocent people? You are asking these questions as if they happen in a vacuum.
Ask yourself, what the accute pressure of Hamas was for attacking, except hatred and terrorism as well as the annihilation of Israel?"
For the same reason why Hamas has killed so many innocent people, too. Hatred. This war is not about solving a problem. It's driven by hatred. Palestinians are treated like subhumans by Israel's administration, they consider them worthy of death and eradication, nothing more.
You're not looking at Israel's actions objectively if you argue they're not acting out of hatred. This war solves nothing, it further escalated the conflict and it will lead to more deaths on both sides. Nothing good can come of it. Just as Hamas fail to grasp the futility of their actions, so does Netanyahu. They're evil people acting entirely out of self-interest. Netanyahu doesn't care about Israeli lives any more than Hamas care about Palestinian lives, as proven by the fact that he embraces the deaths of IDF soldiers in this pointless war. He is exactly like Putin.
Same reasoning as above: Agree to disagree. I don't think that deliberately targetting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages is comparable to collateral. Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 22:19 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
It is completely fine to debunk stuff that isn't true (I think we all strive towards a "truer" form of living).
Yet I think that the debunking in the West nowadays mostly should be directed at all the clueless Free Palestine supporters that make comparisons to an Apartheid state, defend the barbaric actions of terrorists and cherish a way of life that is utterly incompatible with Western values. Many of these supporters are in complete denial in regards to all the effort Israel takes to minimize casualties in an utterly ungrateful war against terrorists in of the densly populated areas on this planet.
Seriously, it is beyond me how some can make accusation of a racially loaded Apartheid when the PA self-governs in the West Bank and Gaza has full autonomy under Hamas. Not only that, but Muslim Arabs penetrate every layer of Israel society from police over army to judges.
So just to sum up, our conversation went like this: - I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it. - No I don't, I just hate terrorism and children being taught to hate. - Israel also does terrorism and teaches children to hate. - (Immediately dropping the terrorism part) Provide some evidence of Israel teaching children to hate - Ok here's a bunch of evidence. - That's only one person! (It's not) and that other thing is satire. - Let me do some research I don't think it's satire, why do you think it is? - It came to me in a dream that it was satire. - Well it isn't, so I guess that covers the Israel teaching children to hate part. So Israel does both of the things that you hate about Hamas, and you still support it. - "UTTERLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH WESTERN VALUES" ... - ...I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it. Cool. If you think that my reasonings portray this, fine by me. Deliberate attacks on civilians are not committed by Israel. They did more than any waring faction in the history to prevent civilian casualties. The "evidence" you provided - in my opinion, it is fine if yours is different - does not compare to the textbooks by Palestinians. Plus, Israel gets called out for it by their own people, while there are not oppossing voices heard from Palestine. Moynihan Law at work. Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 22:22 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 15 2024 05:41 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 05:04 Cricketer12 wrote:
No one in here agrees that Hamas should stay or hold any real power. The issues comes in with how we tackle the indoctrination of the Palestinian people. It's a very simple reality that treating someone as an enemy, as an other, will turn them into one. The Palestinian people don't currently have the luxury to recognize how atrocious Hamas is because the occupation already makes their lives miserable.
Therefore you either need to kill them all or stop making their lives hell, throw them a bone or two, because clearly a mere ceasefire while good at providing a cessation to the increased rate of slaughter, does not resolve the conflict long term. Stop making their lives hell? Serious question: Have you ever been to the middle-east? On August 15 2024 05:11 WombaT wrote:On August 15 2024 04:44 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 02:01 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 01:48 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 14 2024 23:58 PremoBeats wrote:On August 14 2024 23:52 PoulsenB wrote:
Israel's goal of eradicating hamas completely is unrealistic. Even if they break the hamas as a functional organisation, a new one will take its place, especially after all the death and destruction they are currently inflicing on the Palestinians in Gaza.
I also find it interesting how one can consider Israeli civilian casualties to be so condemnable and at the same time consider Palestinian civilian casualties as justified. ` Well. Hamas attacked on October 7th and targeted civilians directly while the Palestinian casualties are collateral (still horrible, but there is a clear distinction... there can't be no justification for the Hamas targeting, while there can be for the collateral in Palestine). Further: I think no one here even made the notion that you put up for discussion. If it was open war and the civilians of Israel would be collateral, one would need to accept that. But they were not collateral.. to kill them was the goal. It was the most effective attack against Israeli military targets in decades and most of the civilian casualties (unclear how many were actually killed by Israel) were from a party that they didn't expect to be at their LZ. It's not any less reasonable to argue that the Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7 were collateral damage than the ~15,000 children Israel has killed. So what if the party wasn't expected to be there? Eyewitnesses (of a peace festival) reported targeted/intentional attacks on civilians. There is nothing collateral about this, not even in the most mental gymnastic pro Hamas perspective. 300 soldiers to 1,2k-1,4k is an abyssmal Soldier-Civilian-Ratio even if it was collateral (1:2,6 to 3,6) So This was aired first on Kan11 like the guy from your link explains. The video was part of Eretz Nehederet, which is a... satirical comedy show. They took it down after receiving criticism. No idea how your two other sources arrive at the idea that it was posted by The Civic Front (perhaps they reposted it because they thought it would aid their cause, who knows), but its satiric nature is obvious. Do you think that the several clips from my video seem so obviously over the top satirical? I can't find the notion that it was posted by Eretz Nehederet anywhere, everyone seems in agreement that it was the Civil Front. Here's another one: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gazaBy the way Eretz Nehederet is also pro-Israel, and is the group that posted this shit Hard to believe they would then turn and do "satire" of the far right groups of Israel, which, by the way, what's the satire? It's a group of children singing about annihilating Gaza, where's the part where we understand it's bad? Look at the comments under the articles, the far right people are in agreement with it, they're not like "Well obviously this is satire we are not like this". The guy says it in the link you posted. But yeah.. I mean you found another over the top sketch they did. But they always produce over the top stuff... not only pro-Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-pans-satirical-tv-show-over-sketch-that-upset-holocaust-survivor/Well, satire can be over-acting an issue, which is displayed in the link you posted. But to come back to how we even got here: hate in children... Did you see the clips of kid's shows, boardgames and puzzles? The educational content? Physics being taught with slingshots shooting at "soldiers of the Zionist occupation"? Reading comprehensions glorifinyg terrorists who instigated massacres where children were killed? Math equations involving the counting of Martyrs? Do you seriously believe that this is in any way comparable to how Israel educates their youth? On August 15 2024 02:13 Magic Powers wrote:
"Collateral" is a completely inappropriate term in the case of an aggressive war. This entire war has been avoidable for the last 9-10 months, thus the civilian casualties can't reasonably be counted as "collateral". The implication of "collateral" is that the deaths can't be reasonably avoided, but that argument fails because this war of aggression is entirely avoidable with a long term ceasefire. Hamas poses no realistic threat, otherwise 95% of the war wouldn't have taken place entirely in Gaza. Even Iran and Hezbollah can't pose a threat despite the IDF being tangled up in this war of aggression. The warmonger and mass murderer Netanyahu must go. Your solution is that Israel simply has to take the occassional murdering of their citizens, cause Hamas begs for a ceasefire the moment they realize how fucked they are? So what if Hamas is no realistic threat... they attacked, now they will receive the consequences. Or the population will learn to get rid of the radical currents via a civil war and someone who can make lasting peace with Israel gets eleceted. Either way, what kind of signal would it send to the other threats of Israel, when they won't even hit back the suppossedly weakest adversary. That’s not how the conflict is going though, or indeed the past few decades of it? Israel isn’t going to win hearts and minds, it knows this so it’s just bombing people into the ground. It’s happy doing this as a state. It’s happy incentivising and protecting settlers encroaching into the ever-decreasing amounts of land they’re ostensibly holding rights to. Equally war doesn’t present many good options, so in that sense sure. But given the Israeli state is actively expanding its holdings simultaneously the idea that all of these events are purely defensive actions is completely untenable What do you mean that this is not how the conflict went? I agree that some of the expansions are a provocation, but unlawful? The Gaza strip was not recognized as part of any sovereign state prior to 67. The West Bank - looking at 67 - is more complex as Jordan had control over it, but mostly was occupying the region themselves and was not a sovereign. Thus legally, one can argue that Gaza and the West Bank are disputed, not occupied territories and settling there is justfiable, if only looking at 67. The Golan Heights were Syrian territory before 67. BUT: All three disputed regions have fallen under uti possidetis juris when Israel declared independence as this whole area was under British mandate. So when these regions were taken by the Arab states after independence, Israel simply took them back a couple of decades later. Or would you argue that Ukraine is occupying Crimea when they retake it in a couple of years from Russia as well? Multiple times, yes. Wow, I never thought to have pro-Russian forces here that view Crimea as part of Russia. Interesting take.
I disagree that Israel has done much, if anything, to avoid innocent deaths in this war. In fact, today's news seems to show they are very intentionally putting those innocent civilians in way, forcing them to lead the way, as human shields... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000
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On August 16 2024 01:36 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 01:29 Magic Powers wrote:
Are you not aware of the allegations made by the Israeli administration? They said thousands of workers had ties to Hamas. So far not a shred of evidence for that claim was produced.
The settlements are not "unlawful", they're unlawful. No quotation marks. Every single settlement in the West bank is a war crime. All of them are illegal. Yet Israel keeps stealing more land, i.e. committing more war crimes. They're actively engaging in ethnic cleansing.
Lastly, Hamas targeting civilians actively is no different from IDF targeting civilians actively. They're both doing it deliberately, with complete purpose. The only difference is that Hamas states their intent outright while the Israeli administration lies about it.
Actions speak louder than words. You deliberately are evading the question if Israel did more than any other faction at war to prevent casualties through multiple devices (call, text messages, pamphlets, radio and tv transmision). How are these settlements in the West Bank unlawful? They were either Israeli territory after the declaration of independence according to uti possidetis juris. Or they were occupied by Jordan who were no sovereign. You are only not allowed to settle on occupied land, but if Jordan was never the sovereign to begin with, the land is not occupied. So how exactly are the West Bank settlements unlawful? And even if they were unlawful: Does that really justify launching rockets, invading Israel and deliberately targeting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages? For the 1000th time: Collateral and delibate targeting are different things. That the IDF are deliberately targeting civilians is a lie. Does it happen? Probably, but in no relative scale comparable to the terrorism by Hamas. If you can't accept that: Agree to disagree.
Ending the war would be preventing casualties, prolonging it is causing more casualties. Thus Israel is deliberately causing more casualties (in the tens of thousands) by prolonging the war. Does my response now make sense?
The West bank settlements are widely considered a war crime. The UN has asserted this multiple times, most recently in 2024.
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/03/09/expanding-israeli-settlements-a-war-crime-according-to-the-un_6600051_4.html#
They were never Israeli territory, they belonged to Palestinians. Now Palestinians can't travel freely anymore and their access to land is severely restricted. These settlements are illegal, a war crime, they result in Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. This was discussed many times in this thread.
As to your question about justified murder of Israelis by Hamas: I stated numerous times that Hamas committed an atrocity. You can stop asking this question.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
I don't care about the term "collateral". I care about reality. In reality this war is completely preventable, Israel could instate a ceasefire as of this very moment and they could've done that for the last ten months. They're not doing it. They have the power to end this war and the continued death of thousands of Palestinians. They're not interested. They're completely fine with more Palestinians being murdered.
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Will Hamas stop hurling rockets at Israel if they initiate a cease fire tomorrow?
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On August 16 2024 04:11 Uldridge wrote:
Will Hamas stop hurling rockets at Israel if they initiate a cease fire tomorrow?
Probably not, no.
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On August 16 2024 01:21 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:
"I simply said it the way I did, because of this comment of yours:
"It is unacceptable that one side gets to play the victim when the other doesn't" "
And I responded to that, so what is your response? Are Palestinians victims just like Israelis are victims, yes or no?
As I said multiple times: yes. Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 20:17 Magic Powers wrote:
This war by Israel specifically is absolutely comparable to the atrocity committed by Hamas on October 7. It's in the same ballpark with far greater numbers of civilians killed and an equal level of pointlessness. There is nothing to be gained from a continuation of this war, it is absolutely far too brutal on the Palestinian population and it should be globally condemned to the utmost. I call it a revenge war, as there is nothing productive or just about it. It's a pure expression of hatred. That's the same hatred Hamas has expressed on October 7 with the mass killing of Israelis. Effectively the acts of aggression from Hamas and from the IDF are equal and cannot be considered different. It is mass murder in both cases.
Ok, cool. Agree to disagree. I don't think that deliberately targetting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages is comparable to collateral. Do you accept that Israel did more than any waring faction in the history of the planet to inform and protect the Palestinian population? Show nested quote +
"I never said that only one side is a victim, but I can make it clear: Both sides have loses and are victims, but every conflict that escalated with thousands of dead in the past 10 years was because the Gazans either shot rockets, invaded Israel or attacked Israel or its citizens in some form or way."
You can paint this the other way around just the same. Every attack coming from Gaza is a response to Israeli aggression. If you think otherwise then you haven't been paying attention to the events over the last decades and you may not even understand the beginning of the conflict either.
So making "unlawful" settlements or setting up check points in a population that is infested with terrorists give the right to constantly shoot rockets, invade and attack civilians? Show nested quote +
"Well, why did Israel dismantle the most important human rights organization? Why did it withhold aid?"
Because they lied. They made an elephant out of the mouse in order to destroy the UNRWA. This was purely nepharious, it was an act of collective punishment. The UNRWA was cleared by other countries and aid has resumed. Israel has never produced evidence for their wild accusations. We can't believe Israel's administration, they are liars.
So these are all lies? You watched at all the documented evidence and it all have been lies? https://www.impact-se.org/reports/https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-suspends-gaza-worker-elected-to-hamas-leadership/https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/unrwa-confirms-hamas-rockets-found-in-one-of-its-schools-363616https://www.impact-se.org/reports/palestinian-textbooks/http://www.israelbehindthenews.com/unrwa-schoolbooks-promote-jihad-martyrdom-and-antisemitism/18922/https://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/unrwa-textbooks-where-is-the-oversight/Show nested quote +
"Why did it kill so many innocent people? You are asking these questions as if they happen in a vacuum.
Ask yourself, what the accute pressure of Hamas was for attacking, except hatred and terrorism as well as the annihilation of Israel?"
For the same reason why Hamas has killed so many innocent people, too. Hatred. This war is not about solving a problem. It's driven by hatred. Palestinians are treated like subhumans by Israel's administration, they consider them worthy of death and eradication, nothing more.
You're not looking at Israel's actions objectively if you argue they're not acting out of hatred. This war solves nothing, it further escalated the conflict and it will lead to more deaths on both sides. Nothing good can come of it. Just as Hamas fail to grasp the futility of their actions, so does Netanyahu. They're evil people acting entirely out of self-interest. Netanyahu doesn't care about Israeli lives any more than Hamas care about Palestinian lives, as proven by the fact that he embraces the deaths of IDF soldiers in this pointless war. He is exactly like Putin.
Same reasoning as above: Agree to disagree. I don't think that deliberately targetting civilians for murder, rape and as hostages is comparable to collateral. Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 22:19 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:
It is completely fine to debunk stuff that isn't true (I think we all strive towards a "truer" form of living).
Yet I think that the debunking in the West nowadays mostly should be directed at all the clueless Free Palestine supporters that make comparisons to an Apartheid state, defend the barbaric actions of terrorists and cherish a way of life that is utterly incompatible with Western values. Many of these supporters are in complete denial in regards to all the effort Israel takes to minimize casualties in an utterly ungrateful war against terrorists in of the densly populated areas on this planet.
Seriously, it is beyond me how some can make accusation of a racially loaded Apartheid when the PA self-governs in the West Bank and Gaza has full autonomy under Hamas. Not only that, but Muslim Arabs penetrate every layer of Israel society from police over army to judges.
So just to sum up, our conversation went like this: - I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it. - No I don't, I just hate terrorism and children being taught to hate. - Israel also does terrorism and teaches children to hate. - (Immediately dropping the terrorism part) Provide some evidence of Israel teaching children to hate - Ok here's a bunch of evidence. - That's only one person! (It's not) and that other thing is satire. - Let me do some research I don't think it's satire, why do you think it is? - It came to me in a dream that it was satire. - Well it isn't, so I guess that covers the Israel teaching children to hate part. So Israel does both of the things that you hate about Hamas, and you still support it. - "UTTERLY INCOMPATIBLE WITH WESTERN VALUES" ... - ...I think you just hate muslims but you don't think you get to say it. Cool. If you think that my reasonings portray this, fine by me. Deliberate attacks on civilians are not committed by Israel. They did more than any waring faction in the history to prevent civilian casualties. The "evidence" you provided - in my opinion, it is fine if yours is different - does not compare to the textbooks by Palestinians. Plus, Israel gets called out for it by their own people, while there are not oppossing voices heard from Palestine. Moynihan Law at work. Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 22:22 Cricketer12 wrote:On August 15 2024 05:41 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 05:04 Cricketer12 wrote:
No one in here agrees that Hamas should stay or hold any real power. The issues comes in with how we tackle the indoctrination of the Palestinian people. It's a very simple reality that treating someone as an enemy, as an other, will turn them into one. The Palestinian people don't currently have the luxury to recognize how atrocious Hamas is because the occupation already makes their lives miserable.
Therefore you either need to kill them all or stop making their lives hell, throw them a bone or two, because clearly a mere ceasefire while good at providing a cessation to the increased rate of slaughter, does not resolve the conflict long term. Stop making their lives hell? Serious question: Have you ever been to the middle-east? On August 15 2024 05:11 WombaT wrote:On August 15 2024 04:44 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 02:01 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 01:48 PremoBeats wrote:On August 15 2024 00:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 14 2024 23:58 PremoBeats wrote:On August 14 2024 23:52 PoulsenB wrote:
Israel's goal of eradicating hamas completely is unrealistic. Even if they break the hamas as a functional organisation, a new one will take its place, especially after all the death and destruction they are currently inflicing on the Palestinians in Gaza.
I also find it interesting how one can consider Israeli civilian casualties to be so condemnable and at the same time consider Palestinian civilian casualties as justified. ` Well. Hamas attacked on October 7th and targeted civilians directly while the Palestinian casualties are collateral (still horrible, but there is a clear distinction... there can't be no justification for the Hamas targeting, while there can be for the collateral in Palestine). Further: I think no one here even made the notion that you put up for discussion. If it was open war and the civilians of Israel would be collateral, one would need to accept that. But they were not collateral.. to kill them was the goal. It was the most effective attack against Israeli military targets in decades and most of the civilian casualties (unclear how many were actually killed by Israel) were from a party that they didn't expect to be at their LZ. It's not any less reasonable to argue that the Israeli civilians killed on Oct 7 were collateral damage than the ~15,000 children Israel has killed. So what if the party wasn't expected to be there? Eyewitnesses (of a peace festival) reported targeted/intentional attacks on civilians. There is nothing collateral about this, not even in the most mental gymnastic pro Hamas perspective. 300 soldiers to 1,2k-1,4k is an abyssmal Soldier-Civilian-Ratio even if it was collateral (1:2,6 to 3,6) So This was aired first on Kan11 like the guy from your link explains. The video was part of Eretz Nehederet, which is a... satirical comedy show. They took it down after receiving criticism. No idea how your two other sources arrive at the idea that it was posted by The Civic Front (perhaps they reposted it because they thought it would aid their cause, who knows), but its satiric nature is obvious. Do you think that the several clips from my video seem so obviously over the top satirical? I can't find the notion that it was posted by Eretz Nehederet anywhere, everyone seems in agreement that it was the Civil Front. Here's another one: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gazaBy the way Eretz Nehederet is also pro-Israel, and is the group that posted this shit Hard to believe they would then turn and do "satire" of the far right groups of Israel, which, by the way, what's the satire? It's a group of children singing about annihilating Gaza, where's the part where we understand it's bad? Look at the comments under the articles, the far right people are in agreement with it, they're not like "Well obviously this is satire we are not like this". The guy says it in the link you posted. But yeah.. I mean you found another over the top sketch they did. But they always produce over the top stuff... not only pro-Israel: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-pans-satirical-tv-show-over-sketch-that-upset-holocaust-survivor/Well, satire can be over-acting an issue, which is displayed in the link you posted. But to come back to how we even got here: hate in children... Did you see the clips of kid's shows, boardgames and puzzles? The educational content? Physics being taught with slingshots shooting at "soldiers of the Zionist occupation"? Reading comprehensions glorifinyg terrorists who instigated massacres where children were killed? Math equations involving the counting of Martyrs? Do you seriously believe that this is in any way comparable to how Israel educates their youth? On August 15 2024 02:13 Magic Powers wrote:
"Collateral" is a completely inappropriate term in the case of an aggressive war. This entire war has been avoidable for the last 9-10 months, thus the civilian casualties can't reasonably be counted as "collateral". The implication of "collateral" is that the deaths can't be reasonably avoided, but that argument fails because this war of aggression is entirely avoidable with a long term ceasefire. Hamas poses no realistic threat, otherwise 95% of the war wouldn't have taken place entirely in Gaza. Even Iran and Hezbollah can't pose a threat despite the IDF being tangled up in this war of aggression. The warmonger and mass murderer Netanyahu must go. Your solution is that Israel simply has to take the occassional murdering of their citizens, cause Hamas begs for a ceasefire the moment they realize how fucked they are? So what if Hamas is no realistic threat... they attacked, now they will receive the consequences. Or the population will learn to get rid of the radical currents via a civil war and someone who can make lasting peace with Israel gets eleceted. Either way, what kind of signal would it send to the other threats of Israel, when they won't even hit back the suppossedly weakest adversary. That’s not how the conflict is going though, or indeed the past few decades of it? Israel isn’t going to win hearts and minds, it knows this so it’s just bombing people into the ground. It’s happy doing this as a state. It’s happy incentivising and protecting settlers encroaching into the ever-decreasing amounts of land they’re ostensibly holding rights to. Equally war doesn’t present many good options, so in that sense sure. But given the Israeli state is actively expanding its holdings simultaneously the idea that all of these events are purely defensive actions is completely untenable What do you mean that this is not how the conflict went? I agree that some of the expansions are a provocation, but unlawful? The Gaza strip was not recognized as part of any sovereign state prior to 67. The West Bank - looking at 67 - is more complex as Jordan had control over it, but mostly was occupying the region themselves and was not a sovereign. Thus legally, one can argue that Gaza and the West Bank are disputed, not occupied territories and settling there is justfiable, if only looking at 67. The Golan Heights were Syrian territory before 67. BUT: All three disputed regions have fallen under uti possidetis juris when Israel declared independence as this whole area was under British mandate. So when these regions were taken by the Arab states after independence, Israel simply took them back a couple of decades later. Or would you argue that Ukraine is occupying Crimea when they retake it in a couple of years from Russia as well? Multiple times, yes. Wow, I never thought to have pro-Russian forces here that view Crimea as part of Russia. Interesting take.
You literally asked me a yes or no question. I didn't say shit about Russia
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On August 16 2024 04:11 Uldridge wrote:
Will Hamas stop hurling rockets at Israel if they initiate a cease fire tomorrow?
Certainly not for a long time. But in a universe where relations have improved, yeah perhaps. We have precedent of other terrorist groups going from extreme to moderate.
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On August 16 2024 04:20 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 04:11 Uldridge wrote:
Will Hamas stop hurling rockets at Israel if they initiate a cease fire tomorrow? Probably not, no.
So what would it take for them to stop doing it? Why don't you try building bridges for once instead of pointing fingers? At the very least you might get to some common ground.
On August 16 2024 04:28 Magic Powers wrote:
Certainly not for a long time. But in a universe where relations have improved, yeah perhaps. We have precedent of other terrorist groups going from extreme to moderate.
So how do you, where you say Israel needs to "just stop being so oppressive", incentivize them to be the first to take the moral high ground?
Also: which terrorist groups became moderate? I'm not very well versed in terrorist contemporary history, if you give me some names I'll be happy to read up on them.
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On August 16 2024 04:44 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 04:20 Nebuchad wrote:On August 16 2024 04:11 Uldridge wrote:
Will Hamas stop hurling rockets at Israel if they initiate a cease fire tomorrow? Probably not, no. So what would it take for them to stop doing it? Why don't you try building bridges for once instead of pointing fingers? At the very least you might get to some common ground.
Probably it would take at least the end of the military occupation of Palestine and a recognized status for Palestinians.
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On August 16 2024 04:44 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 04:20 Nebuchad wrote:On August 16 2024 04:11 Uldridge wrote:
Will Hamas stop hurling rockets at Israel if they initiate a cease fire tomorrow? Probably not, no. So what would it take for them to stop doing it? Why don't you try building bridges for once instead of pointing fingers? At the very least you might get to some common ground. Show nested quote +On August 16 2024 04:28 Magic Powers wrote:
Certainly not for a long time. But in a universe where relations have improved, yeah perhaps. We have precedent of other terrorist groups going from extreme to moderate. So how do you, where you say Israel needs to "just stop being so oppressive", incentivize them to be the first to take the moral high ground? Also: which terrorist groups became moderate? I'm not very well versed in terrorist contemporary history, if you give me some names I'll be happy to read up on them.
I've explained this many times before. If you ask the question how Israel should be expected to tolerate being attacked, you should ask the same question back to Palestinians. How should Palestinians be expected to tolerate this war and all the other previous attacks from Israel? That should immediately answer it, because if you remove the double standard the answer is obvious. Neither side can be expected to tolerate the other side's aggression. That's why Israel should instate a ceasefire. Nothing other than deescalation and diplomacy matters. This war has to end because it has to end, it's that simple. All the future terrorist attacks will never amount to the suffering that this war has caused.
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That does not make any sense.
Neither side can tolerate aggression, ergo Israel should stop. You're making a choice based on emotional attachment.
The correct answer is both sides should stop. If both sides can't stop, then both sides won't stop. This conflict maybe used to have been a forgiving tit for tat, but now it's devolved into a tit for tat ad infinitum. The trick is breaking out of the cycle. But blaming and condemning Israel for not doing so, is not the way to get there.
Note that I also find their civilian to Hamas ratios completely disproportional to the point of war crimes, but I don't have enough insight in the way Israel operates, nor can I say with confidence who actually reports things correctly so I wisely stay away from forming a polarized opinion.
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On July 09 2024 20:44 Nebuchad wrote:
Uldridge: => "Don't you get it? They can't do it explicitly, because that would dry up their big Benjamins stream real quick.
They need to genocide covertly so that no one (i.e. everyone) can understand what they are actually doing.
It's so easy to paint everything black and white"
This looks sarcastic so I'm curious why this isn't true?
Do you have more insight on this cause I was curious about that
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On August 16 2024 05:12 Uldridge wrote:
That does not make any sense.
Neither side can tolerate aggression, ergo Israel should stop. You're making a choice based on emotional attachment.
The correct answer is both sides should stop. If both sides can't stop, then both sides won't stop. This conflict maybe used to have been a forgiving tit for tat, but now it's devolved into a tit for tat ad infinitum. The trick is breaking out of the cycle. But blaming and condemning Israel for not doing so, is not the way to get there.
Note that I also find their civilian to Hamas ratios completely disproportional to the point of war crimes, but I don't have enough insight in the way Israel operates, nor can I say with confidence who actually reports things correctly so I wisely stay away from forming a polarized opinion.
Israel is ostensibly supposed to be accountable to international law. Were they not a cudgel for US hegemony, they'd have been sanctioned into the ground by now, ending their aggression.
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On August 15 2024 14:33 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2024 06:54 Nebuchad wrote:On August 15 2024 06:19 PremoBeats wrote:On August 14 2024 20:37 Gahlo wrote:
Right, because a school has the structural integrity to withstand bombing to the same level as a "strategically important point target."
Yup, but it is intentional by Hamas. Cause you can tell that to the terrorists who shouldn't hide behind civilians and civilian infrastructure. If the excuse for the mass civilian casualties is that Hamas is using them as human shields, and the fatality total has to be taken into account with how densely packed the region is, then where the fuck do you expect Hamas to fight from where it's "fair"? It's a prison city. That would be like saying there was no/low civilian fatalities on 10/7 because the people that died were or were going to be IDF members due to mandatory inscription. So are there no other places in Gaza where Hamas could put up operating bases? It needs to be atop schools, Mosques and hospitals? Does all of Gaza consist only of important civilian infrastructure? Are there no other buildings that they could occupy, which would have greatly decreased the suffering and humanitarian emergencies in all of the fighting as well as lessened the casualty rates? Are you not aware that Hamas is blocking peace corridors? Shooting fleeing civilians? Raiding international aid? Misusing funds? This is their business. And every dead civilian is important to this cause. Thus you might direct your question at fighters that were also batteling in densly populated areas without the tactics that Hamas deploys.
Answer the question, where do you expect them to fight from?
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EPT
