EPTI do not like things being forced upon people.
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Slydie
1927 Posts
I do not like things being forced upon people. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11640 Posts
On September 10 2021 19:08 Slydie wrote: The sad part about vax mandates is that they are necessary some places. If only a couple of percent deny getting their shots, they are not. I do not like things being forced upon people. Yeah. This whole situation is weird. There simply is no reason not to simply get vaccinated (mandatory disclaimer for the few people who really can not), yet large parts of the population don't. I don't understand it. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Ruslan1977
Russian Federation1 Post
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
For people wondering about protection between vax and infection itself. Worthless anecdote: my dumbass cousin got covid twice and has not been vaccinated. Another thing worth pointing out: one study showed the Moderna vaccine causes humans to produce 2x the antibodies that Pfizer does. This may be related to the slightly higher risk of heart inflammation (still much lower risk than getting covid) from the vaccine. It’s not that app vaccines are the same. Not all infections are the same. It is an extremely complex system. But when you look at hundreds of thousands, you can do statistics stuff to figure out relative performance. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4359 Posts
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study Healthy boys may be more likely to be admitted to hospital with a rare side-effect of the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccine that causes inflammation of the heart than with Covid itself, US researchers claim. Their analysis of medical data suggests that boys aged 12 to 15, with no underlying medical conditions, are four to six times more likely to be diagnosed with vaccine-related myocarditis than ending up in hospital with Covid over a four-month period. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6215 Posts
On September 11 2021 15:17 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Study from the US claims healthy boys aged 12-15 four to six times more likely to be hospitalised with myocarditis from the vaccine than hospitalised with covid. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study Mostly a policy question to be honest. Are there side effects from covid outside of hospitalization that outweigh the chances of getting myocarditis? How readily available is treatment for myocarditis compared to treatment for covid in a hospital setting? Do the benefits of vaccination on a population level outweigh the individual harm that may occur? UK is holding off on vaccinating younger people because of this while other countries like Canada/USA have opened vaccinations everyone 12+. If you want to attain something akin to herd immunity, you need shots in every available arm, myocarditis or not. Portugal/Spain are taking that approach, and Canada is pushing towards that. There are pros and cons to both. I believe everyone should get the shot, because data from Portugal and Spain so far indicates that herd immunity from Delta seems like it is still within reach at upwards of 75% of the population fully vaccinated alongside a reasonable level of covid recoveries. With children 5-11 eligible for vaccination, it's likely that Delta can be controlled in many countries. It is worth investigating though, especially if for example the dosages for 5-11 could be extended up to 12-18, or if a 3 dose regime with lower dosages each time would produce the same results with fewer side effects. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45084 Posts
On September 10 2021 19:08 Slydie wrote: The sad part about vax mandates is that they are necessary some places. If only a couple of percent deny getting their shots, they are not. I do not like things being forced upon people. Unfortunately, the anti-vaxxers who claim to hate the idea of mandating vaccines, seem to have no problem wanting to mandate exposure to deadly diseases. | ||
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ThePhan2m
Norway2750 Posts
On September 10 2021 23:59 Simberto wrote: Yeah. This whole situation is weird. There simply is no reason not to simply get vaccinated (mandatory disclaimer for the few people who really can not), yet large parts of the population don't. I don't understand it. There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11640 Posts
On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote: There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. Sorry, but that sounds like utter conspiracy nonsense. And i am not going to hunt down some dutch guy on youtube for information. A quick google lead to directly to a fact checking page stating that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for these claims. https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/04/21/beguenstigen-impfungen-corona-mutationen-wissenschaftler-widersprechen-den-behauptungen-von-geert-vanden-bossche/ (In German) In fact, every single hit when searching for his name, except for his twitter, his website and his linkedin all paint a pretty similar story. Especially this "Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. " sounds very suspicious, especially considering that the main guy in charge of dealing with the pandemic here in Germany (Drosten) says the exact opposite. Also, vaccines don't create variants, that is absurd. People being infected does, because variants are random mutations, some of which are more capable than the base virus in some circumstances. More viruses producing more viruses through infecting people = more mutations = more variants. Of course, if you have a lot of infections in a vaccinated population, this evolutionary pressure may indeed lead to more vaccine resistant variants. Nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle in general, but promoting that as the main way of dealing with the pandemic is absurd. Plenty of healthy people die from this. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45084 Posts
On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote: There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Just to be clear, this is not actually a thing. I know you said "if", so perhaps you're just suggesting a weird hypothetical that's completely baseless, but on the off-chance that you actually think this is true... you're mistaken. I'm vaccinated, but I'm due for a booster within the next few months. If I end up experiencing a breakthrough case - in other words, if I end up becoming infected with coronavirus, even though I'm vaccinated - there is absolutely no reason to think that my body's immune system would be completely disabled without additional help from more vaccinations. My body can, and will, continue to fight against future variants/strains of covid, even if I don't get a booster (although, obviously, I'm going to get a booster, because being vaccinated is the best way to protect yourself from covid, as per the medical consensus). | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21963 Posts
On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote: Florida is basically doing this. The elderly are vaccinated to a high degree but otherwise they are ignoring it and simply letting it run around.There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. They are trying to hide their numbers by pushing them in the past so its hard to get a current picture but for almost the entire month of August they have been setting record after record of deaths and September is not going to be any better. August 21st is the 'current' peak of 330 deaths a day. In reality that peak will have kept climbing reality is much closer to 400. (we'll see that in 2-3 weeks when the deaths have been backlogged). To put it conservatively. Florida is having a 9/11 every 2 weeks for the last month and a half. The rest of the world that is properly vaccinated and still having some measures have cases but no death spikes. The idea that we shouldn't mass vaccinate but let nature run its course in a 'healthy' population would kill millions that are now safe and alive. I don't care that 1 expert is saying to do X when 10.000 other experts are saying the opposite. That is why the scientific community runs on consensus. Not whatever the last guy to speak said. And yeah I have not heard of the idea that vaccinations stop your own immune system. Your going to have to provide some really good sources on that. | ||
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thePunGun
598 Posts
On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote: Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. That's total nonsense! I cannot understand how anyone with at least basic knowledge about how viruses mutate can come to that conclusion! Viruses are more likely to mutate, the more time they have to reproduce! Variants are created by random copy errors of the genetic code. Nothing prevents a virus from reproducing as effectively as a vaccine does. As it gives the body a head start to produce antibodies. The less time a virus has to reproduce the less likely it is to mutate, that's a scientific fact, which can not only be proven and reproduced in a lab, but also by maths and just basic common sense. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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farvacola
United States18839 Posts
On September 12 2021 03:41 Mohdoo wrote: Just wanted to say props to TL for carrying a big stick when it come to flat out vax disinformation. I think they have done a great job at letting folks like Nettles say what they think while also pulling out the ban hammer when someone crosses into actual harmful bullshit territory. Agreed. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6215 Posts
On September 12 2021 04:55 JimmiC wrote: Pretty impressive numbers coming from Canada on Vax vs un vax. Vaccinated 36x less likely to hospitalized, which is way higher then the still impressive 10x in the US. I believe that is because our spread is so much less (due to higher vaccination rates) that the people are not having as many chances of catching it causing way less break through. More hope as well as we get more and more vaccinated that this could actually be done. 1.4% of hospitalizations and 2% of deaths were fully vaccinated individuals. https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-vaccines-illness-death-risk-1.6171958 My guess is the longer intervals between shots used by canada as compared to Israel and USA. The longer interval results in greater and more durable protection against covid | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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teeel141
93 Posts
On September 11 2021 21:17 Simberto wrote: Sorry, but that sounds like utter conspiracy nonsense. And i am not going to hunt down some dutch guy on youtube for information. A quick google lead to directly to a fact checking page stating that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for these claims. https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/04/21/beguenstigen-impfungen-corona-mutationen-wissenschaftler-widersprechen-den-behauptungen-von-geert-vanden-bossche/ (In German) In fact, every single hit when searching for his name, except for his twitter, his website and his linkedin all paint a pretty similar story. Especially this "Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. " sounds very suspicious, especially considering that the main guy in charge of dealing with the pandemic here in Germany (Drosten) says the exact opposite. Also, vaccines don't create variants, that is absurd. People being infected does, because variants are random mutations, some of which are more capable than the base virus in some circumstances. More viruses producing more viruses through infecting people = more mutations = more variants. Of course, if you have a lot of infections in a vaccinated population, this evolutionary pressure may indeed lead to more vaccine resistant variants. Nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle in general, but promoting that as the main way of dealing with the pandemic is absurd. Plenty of healthy people die from this. Theres still going to be variants aslong as new infections are happening. Normally a virus would become less deadly with time which is what we heard from the news in the beggining as one of the hopefuls things about the future. But if people get vaccinated then theres huge pressure on the virus and the only variants that would become dominant (slected from ones already in existence) are the ones capable of infecting vaccinated people. And a problem with that is that one of the features might be something like much higher viral load like with delta. So if the vaccines that will get deployed in the future have the same success rate as these ones (non sterilizing immunity), then things cant go on like this forever. It cant be just 2 boosters a year and problem solved. I haven't seen this debunked anywhere, would you provide some links with good counterarguments? And the only thing i heard about future vaccines being better on the news is nasal vaccines so maybe that will solve it? We really arent being told anything about long term plans at all, just the boosters but that is done by implication. Nobody ever says boosters forever. | ||
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Yurie
11932 Posts
On September 13 2021 02:44 teeel141 wrote: Theres still going to be variants aslong as new infections are happening. Normally a virus would become less deadly with time which is what we heard from the news in the beggining as one of the hopefuls things about the future. But if people get vaccinated then theres huge pressure on the virus and the only variants that would become dominant (slected from ones already in existence) are the ones capable of infecting vaccinated people. And a problem with that is that one of the features might be something like much higher viral load like with delta. So if the vaccines that will get deployed in the future have the same success rate as these ones (non sterilizing immunity), then things cant go on like this forever. It cant be just 2 boosters a year and problem solved. I haven't seen this debunked anywhere, would you provide some links with good counterarguments? And the only thing i heard about future vaccines being better on the news is nasal vaccines so maybe that will solve it? We really arent being told anything about long term plans at all, just the boosters but that is done by implication. Nobody ever says boosters forever. Vaccinate 99.9% of people so the R rate drops low enough for it to stop propagating and thus stop mutating? | ||
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