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On September 13 2021 03:09 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 02:44 teeel141 wrote:On September 11 2021 21:17 Simberto wrote:On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote:On September 10 2021 23:59 Simberto wrote:On September 10 2021 19:08 Slydie wrote:
The sad part about vax mandates is that they are necessary some places. If only a couple of percent deny getting their shots, they are not.
I do not like things being forced upon people. Yeah. This whole situation is weird. There simply is no reason not to simply get vaccinated (mandatory disclaimer for the few people who really can not), yet large parts of the population don't. I don't understand it. There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. Sorry, but that sounds like utter conspiracy nonsense. And i am not going to hunt down some dutch guy on youtube for information. A quick google lead to directly to a fact checking page stating that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for these claims. https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/04/21/beguenstigen-impfungen-corona-mutationen-wissenschaftler-widersprechen-den-behauptungen-von-geert-vanden-bossche/ (In German) In fact, every single hit when searching for his name, except for his twitter, his website and his linkedin all paint a pretty similar story. Especially this "Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. " sounds very suspicious, especially considering that the main guy in charge of dealing with the pandemic here in Germany (Drosten) says the exact opposite. Also, vaccines don't create variants, that is absurd. People being infected does, because variants are random mutations, some of which are more capable than the base virus in some circumstances. More viruses producing more viruses through infecting people = more mutations = more variants. Of course, if you have a lot of infections in a vaccinated population, this evolutionary pressure may indeed lead to more vaccine resistant variants. Nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle in general, but promoting that as the main way of dealing with the pandemic is absurd. Plenty of healthy people die from this. Theres still going to be variants aslong as new infections are happening. Normally a virus would become less deadly with time which is what we heard from the news in the beggining as one of the hopefuls things about the future. But if people get vaccinated then theres huge pressure on the virus and the only variants that would become dominant (slected from ones already in existence) are the ones capable of infecting vaccinated people. And a problem with that is that one of the features might be something like much higher viral load like with delta. So if the vaccines that will get deployed in the future have the same success rate as these ones (non sterilizing immunity), then things cant go on like this forever. It cant be just 2 boosters a year and problem solved. I haven't seen this debunked anywhere, would you provide some links with good counterarguments? And the only thing i heard about future vaccines being better on the news is nasal vaccines so maybe that will solve it? We really arent being told anything about long term plans at all, just the boosters but that is done by implication. Nobody ever says boosters forever. Vaccinate 99.9% of people so the R rate drops low enough for it to stop propagating and thus stop mutating?
How do you do that if youre not China? And how do you do it WORLDWIDE fast enough before a variant that is even more resistant spreads?
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There’s selective pressure on the virus to avoid immunity as soon as immunity is prevalent in the population, that’s no different if you got vaccinated than if you caught it and recovered. It’s asinine to say that means immunity is bad, that’s like saying it’s bad to lock your door because it will encourage criminals to learn to pick locks. Sure, it will, but it’s not better to just let them in unimpeded.
If you want a link, Derek Lowe’s blog has a good post about this specifically, as well as more generally the phenomenon of evolving resistance to therapeutics. Long story short, vaccines didn’t cause Delta, and in fact, Delta predates widespread vaccination; its adaptations would have been favorable even if vaccines had failed and never gotten approved. Evolution doesn’t necessarily promote a more or less dangerous virus, it just promotes a virus that propagates itself more effectively, which Delta does.
The best way to avoid future variants is to give the virus fewer chances to mutate. Ideally that means mass vaccination throughout the world. If it manages enough antigen drift to evade immunity, we’ll just have to knock that one down as quick as we can, but hopefully the structure of the spike protein is too important to its function for it to change very much.
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But that’s a problem with all antigenic drift, not specific to vaccine-induced immunity. If the virus manages to mutate to a form that evades immunity that will be very bad, but it will be very bad whether that immunity is vaccine-based or not.
Vaccine opponents keep bringing up these hypothetical immunity-based problems (e.g. ADE, original antigenic sin) that could happen in the future as reasons not to vaccinate, without giving a reason why the risk is greater than with disease-induced immunity. Millions of people had memory B cells against SARS-CoV-2 already before vaccination started. Were you worried about original antigenic sin for them? What did you think should be done about it?
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On September 13 2021 03:53 ChristianS wrote:
But that’s a problem with all antigenic drift, not specific to vaccine-induced immunity. If the virus manages to mutate to a form that evades immunity that will be very bad, but it will be very bad whether that immunity is vaccine-based or not.
Vaccine opponents keep bringing up these hypothetical immunity-based problems (e.g. ADE, original antigenic sin) that could happen in the future as reasons not to vaccinate, without giving a reason why the risk is greater than with disease-induced immunity. Millions of people had memory B cells against SARS-CoV-2 already before vaccination started. Were you worried about original antigenic sin for them? What did you think should be done about it?
All im saying is that it doesnt seem that we can do this forever and that we need vaccines with sterilizing immunity.
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I don’t think anyone is opposed to even better vaccines? But pharmaceutical development is a lot of dice rolls, and you should understand we rolled very lucky so far to get the vaccines we’ve got.
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On September 13 2021 03:24 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 03:09 Yurie wrote:On September 13 2021 02:44 teeel141 wrote:On September 11 2021 21:17 Simberto wrote:On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote:On September 10 2021 23:59 Simberto wrote:On September 10 2021 19:08 Slydie wrote:
The sad part about vax mandates is that they are necessary some places. If only a couple of percent deny getting their shots, they are not.
I do not like things being forced upon people. Yeah. This whole situation is weird. There simply is no reason not to simply get vaccinated (mandatory disclaimer for the few people who really can not), yet large parts of the population don't. I don't understand it. There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. Sorry, but that sounds like utter conspiracy nonsense. And i am not going to hunt down some dutch guy on youtube for information. A quick google lead to directly to a fact checking page stating that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for these claims. https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/04/21/beguenstigen-impfungen-corona-mutationen-wissenschaftler-widersprechen-den-behauptungen-von-geert-vanden-bossche/ (In German) In fact, every single hit when searching for his name, except for his twitter, his website and his linkedin all paint a pretty similar story. Especially this "Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. " sounds very suspicious, especially considering that the main guy in charge of dealing with the pandemic here in Germany (Drosten) says the exact opposite. Also, vaccines don't create variants, that is absurd. People being infected does, because variants are random mutations, some of which are more capable than the base virus in some circumstances. More viruses producing more viruses through infecting people = more mutations = more variants. Of course, if you have a lot of infections in a vaccinated population, this evolutionary pressure may indeed lead to more vaccine resistant variants. Nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle in general, but promoting that as the main way of dealing with the pandemic is absurd. Plenty of healthy people die from this. Theres still going to be variants aslong as new infections are happening. Normally a virus would become less deadly with time which is what we heard from the news in the beggining as one of the hopefuls things about the future. But if people get vaccinated then theres huge pressure on the virus and the only variants that would become dominant (slected from ones already in existence) are the ones capable of infecting vaccinated people. And a problem with that is that one of the features might be something like much higher viral load like with delta. So if the vaccines that will get deployed in the future have the same success rate as these ones (non sterilizing immunity), then things cant go on like this forever. It cant be just 2 boosters a year and problem solved. I haven't seen this debunked anywhere, would you provide some links with good counterarguments? And the only thing i heard about future vaccines being better on the news is nasal vaccines so maybe that will solve it? We really arent being told anything about long term plans at all, just the boosters but that is done by implication. Nobody ever says boosters forever. Vaccinate 99.9% of people so the R rate drops low enough for it to stop propagating and thus stop mutating? How do you do that if youre not China? And how do you do it WORLDWIDE fast enough before a variant that is even more resistant spreads?
Same way we globally removed smallpox. Vaccinate people and explain why it is important to do. Sadly I didn't find any good source discussing the methods they used to globally promote vaccinations. The CDC page was decent though.
https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html
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On September 13 2021 04:32 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 03:24 teeel141 wrote:On September 13 2021 03:09 Yurie wrote:On September 13 2021 02:44 teeel141 wrote:On September 11 2021 21:17 Simberto wrote:On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote:On September 10 2021 23:59 Simberto wrote:On September 10 2021 19:08 Slydie wrote:
The sad part about vax mandates is that they are necessary some places. If only a couple of percent deny getting their shots, they are not.
I do not like things being forced upon people. Yeah. This whole situation is weird. There simply is no reason not to simply get vaccinated (mandatory disclaimer for the few people who really can not), yet large parts of the population don't. I don't understand it. There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. Sorry, but that sounds like utter conspiracy nonsense. And i am not going to hunt down some dutch guy on youtube for information. A quick google lead to directly to a fact checking page stating that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for these claims. https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/04/21/beguenstigen-impfungen-corona-mutationen-wissenschaftler-widersprechen-den-behauptungen-von-geert-vanden-bossche/ (In German) In fact, every single hit when searching for his name, except for his twitter, his website and his linkedin all paint a pretty similar story. Especially this "Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. " sounds very suspicious, especially considering that the main guy in charge of dealing with the pandemic here in Germany (Drosten) says the exact opposite. Also, vaccines don't create variants, that is absurd. People being infected does, because variants are random mutations, some of which are more capable than the base virus in some circumstances. More viruses producing more viruses through infecting people = more mutations = more variants. Of course, if you have a lot of infections in a vaccinated population, this evolutionary pressure may indeed lead to more vaccine resistant variants. Nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle in general, but promoting that as the main way of dealing with the pandemic is absurd. Plenty of healthy people die from this. Theres still going to be variants aslong as new infections are happening. Normally a virus would become less deadly with time which is what we heard from the news in the beggining as one of the hopefuls things about the future. But if people get vaccinated then theres huge pressure on the virus and the only variants that would become dominant (slected from ones already in existence) are the ones capable of infecting vaccinated people. And a problem with that is that one of the features might be something like much higher viral load like with delta. So if the vaccines that will get deployed in the future have the same success rate as these ones (non sterilizing immunity), then things cant go on like this forever. It cant be just 2 boosters a year and problem solved. I haven't seen this debunked anywhere, would you provide some links with good counterarguments? And the only thing i heard about future vaccines being better on the news is nasal vaccines so maybe that will solve it? We really arent being told anything about long term plans at all, just the boosters but that is done by implication. Nobody ever says boosters forever. Vaccinate 99.9% of people so the R rate drops low enough for it to stop propagating and thus stop mutating? How do you do that if youre not China? And how do you do it WORLDWIDE fast enough before a variant that is even more resistant spreads? Same way we globally removed smallpox. Vaccinate people and explain why it is important to do. Sadly I didn't find any good source discussing the methods they used to globally promote vaccinations. The CDC page was decent though. https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html
Smallpox vaccine is an attenuated vaccine. We don't have that for covid.
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On September 13 2021 03:26 JimmiC wrote:
There is 0 evidence that vaccinating people makes more worse variants, it is the opposite, more vaccination means less chances of mutations. Delta came before vaccination started. That theory has be debunked over and over. In theory a random mutation that can work through the vaccine can come out when everyone is vaccinated. While if no one was vaccinated the mutation that beats vaccination could be out competed by something more infectious that doesn't get beaten by vaccines.
But that ignores the effects of having an unvaccinated population which is MASSIVELY worse then any scenario in which a version manages to beat the vaccine.
The obsolete worst case where the vaccine is rendered useless by such a mutation is the default situation without vaccines, so what really is the cost of vaccinating...
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On September 13 2021 04:05 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 03:53 ChristianS wrote:
But that’s a problem with all antigenic drift, not specific to vaccine-induced immunity. If the virus manages to mutate to a form that evades immunity that will be very bad, but it will be very bad whether that immunity is vaccine-based or not.
Vaccine opponents keep bringing up these hypothetical immunity-based problems (e.g. ADE, original antigenic sin) that could happen in the future as reasons not to vaccinate, without giving a reason why the risk is greater than with disease-induced immunity. Millions of people had memory B cells against SARS-CoV-2 already before vaccination started. Were you worried about original antigenic sin for them? What did you think should be done about it? All im saying is that it doesnt seem that we can do this forever and that we need vaccines with sterilizing immunity. Better vaccines are always good and no one is saying we want to do this forever but the simply counter question is "what else is there right now"?
Every other scenario and solution is worse then vaccinating as many people as we can and hoping thats enough. It doesn't matter if you think the current situation is 'good enough' or sustainable when you realise every other option is worse and this is all there is until something changes.
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On September 13 2021 04:05 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2021 03:53 ChristianS wrote:
But that’s a problem with all antigenic drift, not specific to vaccine-induced immunity. If the virus manages to mutate to a form that evades immunity that will be very bad, but it will be very bad whether that immunity is vaccine-based or not.
Vaccine opponents keep bringing up these hypothetical immunity-based problems (e.g. ADE, original antigenic sin) that could happen in the future as reasons not to vaccinate, without giving a reason why the risk is greater than with disease-induced immunity. Millions of people had memory B cells against SARS-CoV-2 already before vaccination started. Were you worried about original antigenic sin for them? What did you think should be done about it? All im saying is that it doesnt seem that we can do this forever and that we need vaccines with sterilizing immunity.
Better vaccines/medications are always preferable, and researchers will always be looking for improvements, but we should still keep in mind that our current vaccines are way better than not being vaccinated 
Edit: Ninja'ed by like 37 other people.
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I went into San Francisco for a friend's birthday for the first time last night since their vaccine passport system started. You get a QR code and the restaurants/clubs just have someone to check it at the door along with your ID. Not much hassle.
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On September 13 2021 02:44 teeel141 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2021 21:17 Simberto wrote:On September 11 2021 20:59 ThePhan2m wrote:On September 10 2021 23:59 Simberto wrote:On September 10 2021 19:08 Slydie wrote:
The sad part about vax mandates is that they are necessary some places. If only a couple of percent deny getting their shots, they are not.
I do not like things being forced upon people. Yeah. This whole situation is weird. There simply is no reason not to simply get vaccinated (mandatory disclaimer for the few people who really can not), yet large parts of the population don't. I don't understand it. There is reasons, if vaccination causes you to lose your own immune systems own way of creating these antibodies for COVID variants. Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. Geert Vanden Bossche is a dutch vaccine expert, and several others expert support him in that mass vaccination is wrong way to go. He says it creates new strains of the virus and diminishes your bodys ability to defend itself. You can find him on youtube explaning everything very indepth. He has years and years of experience with vaccines. I cannot see any reason why we cannot do the following. 1. Protect the elderly and weak with vaccines (reduce risk where there is no other choise) 2. Promote healthy lifestyle to stregthen bodys own immunesystem. 3. Allow and use medicine that already shown great results with dealing with Covid. Including C and D vitamin boosts to let the body itself get what it needs for its own immune response. Sorry, but that sounds like utter conspiracy nonsense. And i am not going to hunt down some dutch guy on youtube for information. A quick google lead to directly to a fact checking page stating that there is absolutely no scientific evidence for these claims. https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/04/21/beguenstigen-impfungen-corona-mutationen-wissenschaftler-widersprechen-den-behauptungen-von-geert-vanden-bossche/ (In German) In fact, every single hit when searching for his name, except for his twitter, his website and his linkedin all paint a pretty similar story. Especially this "Once you vaccinate, your body cannot deal with variants themselves, but you are pretty much dependent on vaccines. " sounds very suspicious, especially considering that the main guy in charge of dealing with the pandemic here in Germany (Drosten) says the exact opposite. Also, vaccines don't create variants, that is absurd. People being infected does, because variants are random mutations, some of which are more capable than the base virus in some circumstances. More viruses producing more viruses through infecting people = more mutations = more variants. Of course, if you have a lot of infections in a vaccinated population, this evolutionary pressure may indeed lead to more vaccine resistant variants. Nothing wrong with a healthy lifestyle in general, but promoting that as the main way of dealing with the pandemic is absurd. Plenty of healthy people die from this. Theres still going to be variants aslong as new infections are happening. Normally a virus would become less deadly with time which is what we heard from the news in the beggining as one of the hopefuls things about the future. But if people get vaccinated then theres huge pressure on the virus and the only variants that would become dominant (slected from ones already in existence) are the ones capable of infecting vaccinated people. And a problem with that is that one of the features might be something like much higher viral load like with delta. So if the vaccines that will get deployed in the future have the same success rate as these ones (non sterilizing immunity), then things cant go on like this forever. It cant be just 2 boosters a year and problem solved. I haven't seen this debunked anywhere, would you provide some links with good counterarguments? And the only thing i heard about future vaccines being better on the news is nasal vaccines so maybe that will solve it? We really arent being told anything about long term plans at all, just the boosters but that is done by implication. Nobody ever says boosters forever.
This is actually an argument for the quicker vaccination of the population (i.e. vaccination mandates) and continued social distancing / masking protocols as we go through the vaccination period. There's been some research done on the impact of vaccination on COVID mutation rate, but the paper is still in pre-print status. You can see it here. There's better quality theoretical paper modeling the impact of evolutionary pressures and the probability of vaccine resistance here, but if you want the TLDR, just visit this webmd article instead. Basically, having vaccines to decrease the R0 and having everyone vaccinated more quickly helps reduce the probability, and in the meantime, we should continue being cautious to avoid immune escape.
Additionally, I'd say that there's a false dichotomy in the discussion I've seen here. It seems as though people were discussing vaccination vs infection, and likening COVID to the flu. The problem is, even if we didn't have a vaccine, there's still evolutionary pressure on viruses to have immune escape mutations, and the probability of a virus acquiring such a mutation increases with the chance it gets to replicate. Also, our flu vaccines didn't cause the flu to have its immune escape functionality. Rather, the flu already had it due to being in circulation for so long, and our vaccines are made taking that into account. Let's not confuse cause and effect here.
As for sterilizing immunity, there's a question on whether or not that's even achievable. Take a look at this article. From what I'm understanding, sterilizing immunity would seem to indicate >90% efficacy at preventing infection, like the measles vaccine, and by-and-large, the COVID vaccines had that in their phase 3 trials. However, if the virus is so widespread that you're constantly in contact with it, and even with >90% efficacy, there's still a high likely hood of getting infected, maybe sterilizing immunity is just not possible.
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Dumb move IMO. Implement the vaccine, bar those people from establishments and they'll find that the antivax views and nunbers wane quickly.
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Or you might get 2full months of protest like in France. They couldve just taken the shot during that period but thinking aint their strong suit.
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When you look up “leadership” in a dictionary, Boris Johnson is listed as an antonym, so this isn’t surprising. He always somehow manages to do the weakest possible thing whenever there’s a crisis.
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On September 14 2021 01:58 Mohdoo wrote:When you look up “leadership” in a dictionary, Boris Johnson is listed as an antonym, so this isn’t surprising. He always somehow manages to do the weakest possible thing whenever there’s a crisis.
Feel he did a lot better then Trump, thadid the strangest and most polarizing thing possible thing whenever there was is crisis, and when there wasn't a crisis he made one up and do something stupid.
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Pleased to see that the UK backtracked on a bad policy choice.
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EPT
