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Northern Ireland25513 Posts
On August 30 2021 19:36 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 06:34 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 02:10 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 00:55 Amumoman wrote:On August 29 2021 23:50 JimmiC wrote:[quote] Denmark is pretty awesome, high vaccination rate, low vaccine hesitency, low covid cases, almost not hospitalizations, low deaths, one of the first with a vaccine passport. Amazing how a competent government and a population that trusts the doctors, facts and science and you can be basicially done with covid. [quote] [quote] https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/27/denmark-to-lift-all-remaining-covid-restrictions-on-10-septemberI forget what country you are from but maybe when they get to these numbers they will. Im surprised you would think one of the earliest to do lockdowns, passports and so on was the besf, but glad to see it! Short term paim for long term gain. Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil). Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health). If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity). These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world. Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure. I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable. Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too. This is your idea of success? You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success? I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been. Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia Is the reason your dodging answering what country you think did the best because you are avoiding the reailty of covid and just wish it didnt exist? We all do, some of us just understand that sacrifice is required at times. @ Sapaio great point, all the social safety net working together! I try not to dwell on wishing things that do exist didnt. As to where, how or by whom we think the virus was best handled, it’s very clear that out sense of how to gauge that differs significantly. Who doesnt realize the benefit of sacrifice? But for whom and on whose terms? There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose health is compromised through no fault of their own and for someone who compromised their own health. There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose values are aligned with yours and someone whose values are not. There’s a difference between voluntary sacrifice and mandated enforced at gun point. One is noble; one is a perversion. But I guess we fundamentally see the world very differently. You think I am turning a blind eye to the reality of the virus - and my sense is that you are greatly underappreciating at what cost the enforced restrictions and the fear-mongering comes. Lots of words no answer. Take a stand where did the best? This should not be a hard question. Already answered this, no? Out of the western countries, Denmark/Sweden have done the least reprehensive job if you ask me.
Least reprehensible still infers you find it reprehensible, so what does a non-reprehensible solution look like?
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On August 30 2021 21:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 19:36 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 06:34 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 02:10 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 00:55 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil).
Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health).
If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity).
These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world. Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure. I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable. Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too. This is your idea of success? You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success? I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been. Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia Is the reason your dodging answering what country you think did the best because you are avoiding the reailty of covid and just wish it didnt exist? We all do, some of us just understand that sacrifice is required at times. @ Sapaio great point, all the social safety net working together! I try not to dwell on wishing things that do exist didnt. As to where, how or by whom we think the virus was best handled, it’s very clear that out sense of how to gauge that differs significantly. Who doesnt realize the benefit of sacrifice? But for whom and on whose terms? There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose health is compromised through no fault of their own and for someone who compromised their own health. There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose values are aligned with yours and someone whose values are not. There’s a difference between voluntary sacrifice and mandated enforced at gun point. One is noble; one is a perversion. But I guess we fundamentally see the world very differently. You think I am turning a blind eye to the reality of the virus - and my sense is that you are greatly underappreciating at what cost the enforced restrictions and the fear-mongering comes. Lots of words no answer. Take a stand where did the best? This should not be a hard question. Already answered this, no? Out of the western countries, Denmark/Sweden have done the least reprehensive job if you ask me. Least reprehensible still infers you find it reprehensible, so what does a non-reprehensible solution look like?
A benevolent God snaps his fingers and Covid disappears. Or actually better yet, that benevolent God never allowed Covid to exist in the first place?
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On August 30 2021 21:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 19:36 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 06:34 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 02:10 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 00:55 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil).
Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health).
If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity).
These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world. Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure. I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable. Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too. This is your idea of success? You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success? I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been. Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia Is the reason your dodging answering what country you think did the best because you are avoiding the reailty of covid and just wish it didnt exist? We all do, some of us just understand that sacrifice is required at times. @ Sapaio great point, all the social safety net working together! I try not to dwell on wishing things that do exist didnt. As to where, how or by whom we think the virus was best handled, it’s very clear that out sense of how to gauge that differs significantly. Who doesnt realize the benefit of sacrifice? But for whom and on whose terms? There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose health is compromised through no fault of their own and for someone who compromised their own health. There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose values are aligned with yours and someone whose values are not. There’s a difference between voluntary sacrifice and mandated enforced at gun point. One is noble; one is a perversion. But I guess we fundamentally see the world very differently. You think I am turning a blind eye to the reality of the virus - and my sense is that you are greatly underappreciating at what cost the enforced restrictions and the fear-mongering comes. Lots of words no answer. Take a stand where did the best? This should not be a hard question. Already answered this, no? Out of the western countries, Denmark/Sweden have done the least reprehensive job if you ask me. Least reprehensible still infers you find it reprehensible, so what does a non-reprehensible solution look like?
No coersion.
Full transparency/free flow of and discussion of information regarding everything; soberly conveyed recommendations untainted by any interests other than commitment to health - no commercial corruption; no corruption by political agendas etc
Speaking more specifically, if you remove the coersion and the encouragement of hysteria and fear, i would find an approach such as the one here in denmark perfectly reasonable.
Edit: spelling
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On August 30 2021 21:24 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 19:43 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 10:38 Magic Powers wrote:On August 30 2021 06:34 Amumoman wrote:
There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose health is compromised through no fault of their own and for someone who compromised their own health. Well, would you not agree that goes both ways? Some people can't get a treatment because of the pandemic, which at this point is largely driven by people who aren't getting vaccinated. It's not a one-sided argument. The question is really just which actions you think are more justifiable. Turning it into a moral argument doesn't seem to lead to a good conclusion. I dont think anyone is entitled to anything. This seems to be something we disagree about. "Entitled"? People pay for healthcare with their hard-earned money. Are you calling that entitlement? Seriously? I mean I guess yeah, that would be entitlement. People are entitled to what they pay for. Would you agree or disagree?
If someone voluntarily enters into an agreement with someone else, I think they have a moral obligation to honor it.
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On August 30 2021 22:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 21:47 WombaT wrote:On August 30 2021 19:36 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 06:34 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 02:10 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure.
I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable.
Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too. This is your idea of success? You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success? I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been. Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia Is the reason your dodging answering what country you think did the best because you are avoiding the reailty of covid and just wish it didnt exist? We all do, some of us just understand that sacrifice is required at times. @ Sapaio great point, all the social safety net working together! I try not to dwell on wishing things that do exist didnt. As to where, how or by whom we think the virus was best handled, it’s very clear that out sense of how to gauge that differs significantly. Who doesnt realize the benefit of sacrifice? But for whom and on whose terms? There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose health is compromised through no fault of their own and for someone who compromised their own health. There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose values are aligned with yours and someone whose values are not. There’s a difference between voluntary sacrifice and mandated enforced at gun point. One is noble; one is a perversion. But I guess we fundamentally see the world very differently. You think I am turning a blind eye to the reality of the virus - and my sense is that you are greatly underappreciating at what cost the enforced restrictions and the fear-mongering comes. Lots of words no answer. Take a stand where did the best? This should not be a hard question. Already answered this, no? Out of the western countries, Denmark/Sweden have done the least reprehensive job if you ask me. Least reprehensible still infers you find it reprehensible, so what does a non-reprehensible solution look like? A benevolent God snaps his fingers and Covid disappears. Or actually better yet, that benevolent God never allowed Covid to exist in the first place?
God tried his best, but those pesky Chinese atheists...
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the chinese are predominantly buddhists
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A lady in my golf league who was around 70 just died from Covid 
Please stay safe out there even if you are vaccinated. If you arent vaccinated and have access please get the shot. In the US its quite scary with the Delta variant. I live in Michigan and its not as bad here yet but I still saw a huge line of cars at the testing center at a local hospital this morning.
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On August 31 2021 03:25 Sadist wrote:A lady in my golf league who was around 70 just died from Covid Please stay safe out there even if you are vaccinated. If you arent vaccinated and have access please get the shot. In the US its quite scary with the Delta variant. I live in Michigan and its not as bad here yet but I still saw a huge line of cars at the testing center at a local hospital this morning.
Consider getting your third shot. The first, second and third shots are all identical. There is a wealth of scientific literature showing 3rd dose is safe and effective. The only reason you haven't been given a 3rd shot already is bureaucracy. The science is already done.
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On August 31 2021 01:57 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 00:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 21:47 WombaT wrote:On August 30 2021 19:36 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 06:34 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 03:19 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 02:10 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:
[quote]
This is your idea of success?
You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success? I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been. Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia Is the reason your dodging answering what country you think did the best because you are avoiding the reailty of covid and just wish it didnt exist? We all do, some of us just understand that sacrifice is required at times. @ Sapaio great point, all the social safety net working together! I try not to dwell on wishing things that do exist didnt. As to where, how or by whom we think the virus was best handled, it’s very clear that out sense of how to gauge that differs significantly. Who doesnt realize the benefit of sacrifice? But for whom and on whose terms? There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose health is compromised through no fault of their own and for someone who compromised their own health. There’s a difference between sacrifice for someone whose values are aligned with yours and someone whose values are not. There’s a difference between voluntary sacrifice and mandated enforced at gun point. One is noble; one is a perversion. But I guess we fundamentally see the world very differently. You think I am turning a blind eye to the reality of the virus - and my sense is that you are greatly underappreciating at what cost the enforced restrictions and the fear-mongering comes. Lots of words no answer. Take a stand where did the best? This should not be a hard question. Already answered this, no? Out of the western countries, Denmark/Sweden have done the least reprehensive job if you ask me. Least reprehensible still infers you find it reprehensible, so what does a non-reprehensible solution look like? No coersion. Full transparency/free flow of and discussion of information regarding everything; soberly conveyed recommendations untainted by any interests other than commitment to health - no commercial corruption; no corruption by political agendas etc Speaking more specifically, if you remove the coersion and the encouragement of hysteria and fear, i would find an approach such as the one here in denmark perfectly reasonable. Edit: spelling These are things everyone wants but what you are giving are slogans and motos with no concrete examples. You need to define "coercion and the encouragement fo hysteria and fear" then explain what you would have done differently and why it would better. But you if you are removing certain measures, you can't keep the results those measures had because that is not how the world works.
this person is most likely a libertarian so I think when they say coercion, they might be talking about how government should not have the ability to restrict free movement (via lockdown). They are probably also against vaccine mandates for libertarian reasons.
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On August 31 2021 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 03:25 Sadist wrote:A lady in my golf league who was around 70 just died from Covid Please stay safe out there even if you are vaccinated. If you arent vaccinated and have access please get the shot. In the US its quite scary with the Delta variant. I live in Michigan and its not as bad here yet but I still saw a huge line of cars at the testing center at a local hospital this morning. Consider getting your third shot. The first, second and third shots are all identical. There is a wealth of scientific literature showing 3rd dose is safe and effective. The only reason you haven't been given a 3rd shot already is bureaucracy. The science is already done.
Ya im getting my 3rd shot as soon as I can. My wife is unfortunately back in the office and ill be extremely worried until we both get our 3rd shots. I can isolate but she really cant anymore. I dont have kids but i know that they are starting back up at school again. I have relatives who are teachers.
It could get extremely ugly everywhere by the end of September. I really wish wed get the mask mandates back in place.
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On August 31 2021 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 03:25 Sadist wrote:A lady in my golf league who was around 70 just died from Covid Please stay safe out there even if you are vaccinated. If you arent vaccinated and have access please get the shot. In the US its quite scary with the Delta variant. I live in Michigan and its not as bad here yet but I still saw a huge line of cars at the testing center at a local hospital this morning. Consider getting your third shot. The first, second and third shots are all identical. There is a wealth of scientific literature showing 3rd dose is safe and effective. The only reason you haven't been given a 3rd shot already is bureaucracy. The science is already done.
I think at this point I would agree with this, where possible if you're around 4-6 months out from your second shot, a booster to finalize the shot regime(until Delta v2 mutates anyways...) would be warranted. I was originally against this because it would've been better for everybody to get 1-2 shots, and stamp out covid that way, but that clearly isn't going to happen any more in most countries. It's just too infectious, and too few people are getting shots. Just protect yourself, encourage others you care about to protect themselves, and let the world around you burn if it has to, or at least those who don't take covid seriously.
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On August 31 2021 00:47 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the chinese are predominantly buddhists
Buddhists are atheists, aren't they? ;-)
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On August 31 2021 03:36 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:On August 31 2021 03:25 Sadist wrote:A lady in my golf league who was around 70 just died from Covid Please stay safe out there even if you are vaccinated. If you arent vaccinated and have access please get the shot. In the US its quite scary with the Delta variant. I live in Michigan and its not as bad here yet but I still saw a huge line of cars at the testing center at a local hospital this morning. Consider getting your third shot. The first, second and third shots are all identical. There is a wealth of scientific literature showing 3rd dose is safe and effective. The only reason you haven't been given a 3rd shot already is bureaucracy. The science is already done. Ya im getting my 3rd shot as soon as I can. My wife is unfortunately back in the office and ill be extremely worried until we both get our 3rd shots. I can isolate but she really cant anymore. I dont have kids but i know that they are starting back up at school again. I have relatives who are teachers. It could get extremely ugly everywhere by the end of September. I really wish wed get the mask mandates back in place.
Once I knew the science was done and it was just waiting for our incompetent government to roll out the logistics, I felt zero hesitation doing what I needed to do to get my 3rd. They are being thrown in the trash *weekly* because even when kept cold, they still have an expiration date.
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On August 31 2021 03:36 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2021 03:26 Mohdoo wrote:On August 31 2021 03:25 Sadist wrote:A lady in my golf league who was around 70 just died from Covid Please stay safe out there even if you are vaccinated. If you arent vaccinated and have access please get the shot. In the US its quite scary with the Delta variant. I live in Michigan and its not as bad here yet but I still saw a huge line of cars at the testing center at a local hospital this morning. Consider getting your third shot. The first, second and third shots are all identical. There is a wealth of scientific literature showing 3rd dose is safe and effective. The only reason you haven't been given a 3rd shot already is bureaucracy. The science is already done. I think at this point I would agree with this, where possible if you're around 4-6 months out from your second shot, a booster to finalize the shot regime(until Delta v2 mutates anyways...) would be warranted. I was originally against this because it would've been better for everybody to get 1-2 shots, and stamp out covid that way, but that clearly isn't going to happen any more in most countries. It's just too infectious, and too few people are getting shots. Just protect yourself, encourage others you care about to protect themselves, and let the world around you burn if it has to, or at least those who don't take covid seriously.
One thing about the vaccine is that it doesn't prevent people from catching the disease all together (the Delta variant). I don't think these vaccines could ever eradicate the disease even if people complied entirely. The most important point of the vaccines is that they greatly reduce the risk of severe illness or death. As long as the weak in the population are all vaccinated it is fine to open up society.
But I think many people have been so afraid of corona for so long now that they wouldn't even tolerate that level of spread and call for way over the top measures simply because the disease still exists at all. And since this disease, like all lung viruses as far as I can tell, probably never will go away anyway some countries risk never going back to normal at all.
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EPT
