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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal. Wonder if they still think its not a big deal after they get long covid and can no longer walk up a flight of stairs without gasping for breath.
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On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal.
This is a great example of the limits of individual determination relative to larger-scale dynamics. Individuals are mostly ill-equipped to make proper judgments on questions that implicate big picture consequences, such as the probabilities of mutative variance incident to the spread of a pandemic It is in those scenarios that rules of general applicability tailored to addressing harms outside the view of the individual are so important. Public health and the environment are two arenas where we see that sort of thing often.
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On August 28 2021 21:33 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal. This is a great example of the limits of individual determination relative to larger-scale dynamics. Individuals are mostly ill-equipped to make proper judgments on questions that implicate big picture consequences, such as the probabilities of mutative variance incident to the spread of a pandemic It is in those scenarios that rules of general applicability tailored to addressing harms outside the view of the individual are so important. Public health and the environment are two arenas where we see that sort of thing often.
Covid has legitimately been a good thing for the global conversation regarding individualism. ChristianS wrote a good post previously that I will put here:
I think the “Western dogma” we’re getting at is the harm principle, usually stated as some version of “everyone should be able to do what they want unless it harms someone else.” There’s a sort of libertarian economist-type philosophy wherein everybody should be able to do whatever they want, and the government should just calculate the externality generated by each person’s actions and tax/fine them appropriately. “Garnish the unvaccinated’s wages “ sounds like a version of that, which is actually extremely compatible with the harm principle-based “Western dogma.”
The widely-acknowledged problem with the harm principle, practically speaking, is that everybody is constantly causing various harms to others that are essentially impossible to enumerate, let alone quantify and convert to a dollar figure to be fined or taxed. The less-talked-about problem is that the harm principle doesn’t account for politics; the obvious solution in this framework to carbon emissions, for instance, is a carbon tax. But carbon taxes are generally extremely unpopular, so democratic governments can’t really tax carbon as much as the externalities would dictate.
Putting aside policy for a moment, I agree with the idea that individualism as an ethic has gotten way out of hand, and that’s made us peculiarly ill-suited to addressing the pandemic, or climate change, or any of the other big issues threatening massive human cost up up and including societal collapse. When the facts indicate we must all make difficult sacrifices for the common good, people simply choose to ignore or disbelieve those facts. But fantasizing about seizing authoritarian control and forcing everyone to do what you think they should do strikes me as, at best, unhelpful escapism. The “at worst” scenarios for that kind of talk are pretty graphic, and probably don’t require elaboration at present.
I think he is right that my grand ideas of authoritarianism are not achievable right now. Since I legitimately want to move in that direction, I don't label it as escapism, but I understand the label. I also think he is being a bit dramatic (as if I am one to talk, I'm exclusively dramatic) since I only really want this for matters of infection, but he's mostly right.
Overall I think ChristianS did a great job summarizing the extent to which humanity is suffering from individualism. We can do better. We can make adjustments and we have a moral obligation to do so.
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On August 29 2021 00:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 21:33 farvacola wrote:On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal. This is a great example of the limits of individual determination relative to larger-scale dynamics. Individuals are mostly ill-equipped to make proper judgments on questions that implicate big picture consequences, such as the probabilities of mutative variance incident to the spread of a pandemic It is in those scenarios that rules of general applicability tailored to addressing harms outside the view of the individual are so important. Public health and the environment are two arenas where we see that sort of thing often. Covid has legitimately been a good thing for the global conversation regarding individualism. ChristianS wrote a good post previously that I will put here: Show nested quote +
I think the “Western dogma” we’re getting at is the harm principle, usually stated as some version of “everyone should be able to do what they want unless it harms someone else.” There’s a sort of libertarian economist-type philosophy wherein everybody should be able to do whatever they want, and the government should just calculate the externality generated by each person’s actions and tax/fine them appropriately. “Garnish the unvaccinated’s wages “ sounds like a version of that, which is actually extremely compatible with the harm principle-based “Western dogma.”
The widely-acknowledged problem with the harm principle, practically speaking, is that everybody is constantly causing various harms to others that are essentially impossible to enumerate, let alone quantify and convert to a dollar figure to be fined or taxed. The less-talked-about problem is that the harm principle doesn’t account for politics; the obvious solution in this framework to carbon emissions, for instance, is a carbon tax. But carbon taxes are generally extremely unpopular, so democratic governments can’t really tax carbon as much as the externalities would dictate.
Putting aside policy for a moment, I agree with the idea that individualism as an ethic has gotten way out of hand, and that’s made us peculiarly ill-suited to addressing the pandemic, or climate change, or any of the other big issues threatening massive human cost up up and including societal collapse. When the facts indicate we must all make difficult sacrifices for the common good, people simply choose to ignore or disbelieve those facts. But fantasizing about seizing authoritarian control and forcing everyone to do what you think they should do strikes me as, at best, unhelpful escapism. The “at worst” scenarios for that kind of talk are pretty graphic, and probably don’t require elaboration at present.
I think he is right that my grand ideas of authoritarianism are not achievable right now. Since I legitimately want to move in that direction, I don't label it as escapism, but I understand the label. I also think he is being a bit dramatic (as if I am one to talk, I'm exclusively dramatic) since I only really want this for matters of infection, but he's mostly right. Overall I think ChristianS did a great job summarizing the extent to which humanity is suffering from individualism. We can do better. We can make adjustments and we have a moral obligation to do so.
Indeed, that is a good summary of the issues.
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On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal.
i'm there too; i don't see covid disappearing and getting 2 vaccines a year to 'boost' whateverthefuck is boosting, is a nonissue when i know i can take it.
can you elaborate on:
- their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity
- reduction in covid resistance over time
'cause from what i read, that's some bullshit right there.
Edit: having antibodies active is not immunity per se.
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On August 29 2021 23:50 JimmiC wrote:Denmark is pretty awesome, high vaccination rate, low vaccine hesitency, low covid cases, almost not hospitalizations, low deaths, one of the first with a vaccine passport. Amazing how a competent government and a population that trusts the doctors, facts and science and you can be basicially done with covid. Show nested quote +The epidemic is under control, we have record vaccination levels,” the health minister, Magnus Heunicke, said in a statement on Friday. “That is why we can drop the special rules we had to introduce in the fight against Covid-19.”
He warned, however, that even if the country was “in a good place right now”, the epidemic was not over and the government would not hesitate to “act quickly if the pandemic once again threatens the essential functioning of society”. Show nested quote +The country was one of Europe’s first to impose a partial lockdown in March last year, closing schools and non-essential businesses and services. After tightening and relaxing anti-Covid measures throughout the pandemic, it was also one of the earliest to begin reopening, launching a “coronavirus passport” on 21 April this year. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/27/denmark-to-lift-all-remaining-covid-restrictions-on-10-septemberI forget what country you are from but maybe when they get to these numbers they will. Im surprised you would think one of the earliest to do lockdowns, passports and so on was the besf, but glad to see it! Short term paim for long term gain.
Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil).
Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health).
If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity).
These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world.
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On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 00:55 Amumoman wrote:On August 29 2021 23:50 JimmiC wrote:Denmark is pretty awesome, high vaccination rate, low vaccine hesitency, low covid cases, almost not hospitalizations, low deaths, one of the first with a vaccine passport. Amazing how a competent government and a population that trusts the doctors, facts and science and you can be basicially done with covid. The epidemic is under control, we have record vaccination levels,” the health minister, Magnus Heunicke, said in a statement on Friday. “That is why we can drop the special rules we had to introduce in the fight against Covid-19.”
He warned, however, that even if the country was “in a good place right now”, the epidemic was not over and the government would not hesitate to “act quickly if the pandemic once again threatens the essential functioning of society”. The country was one of Europe’s first to impose a partial lockdown in March last year, closing schools and non-essential businesses and services. After tightening and relaxing anti-Covid measures throughout the pandemic, it was also one of the earliest to begin reopening, launching a “coronavirus passport” on 21 April this year. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/27/denmark-to-lift-all-remaining-covid-restrictions-on-10-septemberI forget what country you are from but maybe when they get to these numbers they will. Im surprised you would think one of the earliest to do lockdowns, passports and so on was the besf, but glad to see it! Short term paim for long term gain. Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil). Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health). If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity). These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world. Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure. I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable. Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too.
This is your idea of success?
You people are something else lmao
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As a Dane I would like one other reason why we been more successful then most. We have a high degree of social security, and we did expend that to many industries so people could actually stay home and make save choices. Not forcing sick people to work to put meat on the table and being disgruntled by the unfortunate situation and making much less opposition to the restrictions enforcement and easier to follow guidelines made by government.
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On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 00:55 Amumoman wrote:On August 29 2021 23:50 JimmiC wrote:Denmark is pretty awesome, high vaccination rate, low vaccine hesitency, low covid cases, almost not hospitalizations, low deaths, one of the first with a vaccine passport. Amazing how a competent government and a population that trusts the doctors, facts and science and you can be basicially done with covid. The epidemic is under control, we have record vaccination levels,” the health minister, Magnus Heunicke, said in a statement on Friday. “That is why we can drop the special rules we had to introduce in the fight against Covid-19.”
He warned, however, that even if the country was “in a good place right now”, the epidemic was not over and the government would not hesitate to “act quickly if the pandemic once again threatens the essential functioning of society”. The country was one of Europe’s first to impose a partial lockdown in March last year, closing schools and non-essential businesses and services. After tightening and relaxing anti-Covid measures throughout the pandemic, it was also one of the earliest to begin reopening, launching a “coronavirus passport” on 21 April this year. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/27/denmark-to-lift-all-remaining-covid-restrictions-on-10-septemberI forget what country you are from but maybe when they get to these numbers they will. Im surprised you would think one of the earliest to do lockdowns, passports and so on was the besf, but glad to see it! Short term paim for long term gain. Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil). Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health). If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity). These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world. Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure. I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable. Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too. This is your idea of success? You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success?
I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been.
Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia
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Northern Ireland27206 Posts
On August 30 2021 02:10 Amumoman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 01:49 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 01:26 Amumoman wrote:On August 30 2021 01:17 JimmiC wrote:On August 30 2021 00:55 Amumoman wrote:On August 29 2021 23:50 JimmiC wrote:Denmark is pretty awesome, high vaccination rate, low vaccine hesitency, low covid cases, almost not hospitalizations, low deaths, one of the first with a vaccine passport. Amazing how a competent government and a population that trusts the doctors, facts and science and you can be basicially done with covid. The epidemic is under control, we have record vaccination levels,” the health minister, Magnus Heunicke, said in a statement on Friday. “That is why we can drop the special rules we had to introduce in the fight against Covid-19.”
He warned, however, that even if the country was “in a good place right now”, the epidemic was not over and the government would not hesitate to “act quickly if the pandemic once again threatens the essential functioning of society”. The country was one of Europe’s first to impose a partial lockdown in March last year, closing schools and non-essential businesses and services. After tightening and relaxing anti-Covid measures throughout the pandemic, it was also one of the earliest to begin reopening, launching a “coronavirus passport” on 21 April this year. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/27/denmark-to-lift-all-remaining-covid-restrictions-on-10-septemberI forget what country you are from but maybe when they get to these numbers they will. Im surprised you would think one of the earliest to do lockdowns, passports and so on was the besf, but glad to see it! Short term paim for long term gain. Relative to other Western countries, restrictions have been the least extreme in Denmark (only surpassed by Sweden in terms of lowest degree of evil). Funny how bring up vac stats and such but apparently had no interest in looking at relevant health measurements (hint: denmark does fairly well relatively speaking on average in terms of obesity and other extreme manifestations of poor health). If you look at the stats for deaths in denmark, here’s what you’d find: the official # of deaths as of today is 2.577 (mind you this is whoever was deemed to have died because of corona or was tested positive less than 30 days prior). Out of these 2.6k ish people (for reference a little over 2000 died in one bad influenza season a few years ago), about 90 were below the age of 60 - half of whom officially declared as having existing comorbidities and many other having confirmed to have been of poor health (obesity). These measurements and restrictions - even if we assume states have any legitimacy in the first place - are so absurdly disproportionate with the extreme violations of people’s liberty.
But i guess some people just have a thing for fear-mongering and going against all that is good and beautiful in this world. Their health stats impact there death rate not covid spread. But yeah they are great at that too. Social democracies have done a great job handling the pandemic for the most part for a whole host of reasons. Healthy educated public that trusts their government being near the top. When people follow the voluntary measures you don't need as many forced ones, go figure. I love how people like you can see the amazing success they had, and then claim that means the measures were not needed. The logical gymnastics to have that make sense are unbelievable. Most sensible people see a place that is successful and think, hmmm we should do that too. This is your idea of success? You people are something else lmao You were the one that posted about their success. Which country is handling it better? What is your version of success? I said it was the least appalling example (with exception of sweden) of the western countries? And by least awful, i dont mean a success, i mean it was egreciously mishandled - however, credit where credit is due, not as poorly as it could have been. Im grateful to live in denmark; its bad here but it isnt north korea or australia
Can we have your alternate vision as to how to manage a pandemic that doesn’t transgress on your conception of liberty then?
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On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal.
getting a disease in order to prevent it: facepalm levels of stupid right here.
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On August 30 2021 03:39 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal. getting a disease in order to prevent it: facepalm levels of stupid right here.
As bad as taking horse dewormer or better?
And yeah lets bring that up. Boomers are now taking horse dewormer instead of getting the vaccine. a medicine commonly given to sheep that you take to prove you aren't sheep.
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On August 30 2021 04:07 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 03:39 Anc13nt wrote:On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal. getting a disease in order to prevent it: facepalm levels of stupid right here. As bad as taking horse dewormer or better? And yeah lets bring that up. Boomers are now taking horse dewormer instead of getting the vaccine. a medicine commonly given to sheep that you take to prove you aren't sheep.
It is a bizarre situation. They are even developing their own routines to use it as prevention. They are all clearly terrified of covid in some ways to the point where they are seeking other solutions. But they won't get vaccinated and they won't wear masks. It is such a deep cultural issue.
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On August 30 2021 04:07 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2021 03:39 Anc13nt wrote:On August 28 2021 20:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 28 2021 15:19 Mohdoo wrote:
My antivax cousin has covid for the second time right now. Sigh. I was talking to an anti-vaxxer who was infected a few months ago, and we discussed how their post-infection immunity is statistically less effective than vaccinated immunity, and how both groups (post-infection and vaccinated) experience a reduction in covid resistance over time, hence the reason for booster shots. I asked them what their equivalent of a booster shot is, if they still refuse to get vaccinated; I asked them how they're going to renew their resistance to covid, after it fades. They shrugged and said they'd probably just get covid every year, and that it wasn't a big deal. getting a disease in order to prevent it: facepalm levels of stupid right here. As bad as taking horse dewormer or better? And yeah lets bring that up. Boomers are now taking horse dewormer instead of getting the vaccine. a medicine commonly given to sheep that you take to prove you aren't sheep.
hard to say but I think the former is worse because it shows a lack of logical reasoning altogether whereas the latter shows merely a lack of critical thinking.
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EPT
