EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 442
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5684 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
On August 27 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote: Penalties for people who have legitimate medical reasons that vaccination is risky seems a tad over the top no? Not being allowed to go into places where you're at a heightened risk of infection isn't a penalty, it's a safety measure. Most of the people with legit medical exemptions face a much higher risk of serious complications in case of catching COVID, too. Keeping them out of places where they could catch COVID is not punishment, it's sound policy. Once the number of infections is low enough, the policy can be revisited, but complaining about it while things are as bad as they are right now is pretty silly. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6216 Posts
On August 27 2021 07:21 WombaT wrote: Penalties for people who have legitimate medical reasons that vaccination is risky seems a tad over the top no? The total number of those people is quite small, in the hundreds for a population of five million. Unfortunate for them, but it greatly simplifies the process for everyone who'll be asked to enforce it later, with a simple yes/no rather than the need to evaluate a medical condition. There's no grey area. You might have people for which the vaccination is ineffective or has reduced effectiveness due to a lack of immune response, but that's another story. The gist of it is that if you are not vaccinated, you are a higher risk to both society and yourself, so get vaccinated. None of the activities restricted are essential, they're all luxuries. You can still shop for food, you can get takeout without needed a vaccination. It's more than doubled our previous vaccination rate (both registration/administration) since the announcement, so it's made a massive difference amongst the fraction remaining that are willing, but lazy. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Just thinking ahead. Probably not medically possible any time soon. And politically wouldn't fly as well. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6216 Posts
On August 27 2021 14:59 RKC wrote: Instead of just a vaccine passport, adding an antibody test condition seems most effective in curbing infection (assuming testing is affordable and reliable). A double-layer passport. Unfortunately, this is rather tough on vaccinated people which fail the antibody test due to natural immunodeficiency. But it protects people which needs most protecting (even against their will). Just thinking ahead. Probably not medically possible any time soon. And politically wouldn't fly as well. Way too involved/expensive for non-appreciable gain in protection at a population level. The vaccine passport is probably going to push a large proportion of the remainder to get a vaccine in the next month. Getting the vaccine in arms is by far the best way to mute increases in cases/severe outcomes. For every person without antibodies, hundreds more will have antibody responses. Those without antibodies can get tested to evaluate their individual risk level, but it doesn't really hurt them to get a useless vaccine (and presumably doctors can prescribe additional doses if/when possible to gain more immunity). In BC: Past week, cases per 100,000 population (Aug. 18-24) Not vaccinated: 199.5 Partially vaccinated 111.9 Fully vaccinated: 24.6 The unvax'd are 8x more likely to catch covid, and given we're essentially 100% Delta in BC (97% as of the last week), it's critical to fully vaccinate in order to minimize infections (and infections are the hardest thing for a vaccine to stop). | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18132 Posts
On August 27 2021 16:21 Lmui wrote: Way too involved/expensive for non-appreciable gain in protection at a population level. The vaccine passport is probably going to push a large proportion of the remainder to get a vaccine in the next month. Getting the vaccine in arms is by far the best way to mute increases in cases/severe outcomes. For every person without antibodies, hundreds more will have antibody responses. Those without antibodies can get tested to evaluate their individual risk level, but it doesn't really hurt them to get a useless vaccine (and presumably doctors can prescribe additional doses if/when possible to gain more immunity). In BC: Past week, cases per 100,000 population (Aug. 18-24) Not vaccinated: 199.5 Partially vaccinated 111.9 Fully vaccinated: 24.6 The unvax'd are 8x more likely to catch covid, and given we're essentially 100% Delta in BC (97% as of the last week), it's critical to fully vaccinate in order to minimize infections (and infections are the hardest thing for a vaccine to stop). That isn't actually how math works. Presumably BC is at > 50% vaccination. Looking at the numbers, 68% full vaccination rate, and a further 7% partial? That means the nonvaccinated are actually about 200/25,000 (0.8%), the partially are 112/7,000 (1.6%) and the fully vaccinated 25/68,000 (0.04%). With these percentages, you see that non-vaccinated are actually about 20x as likely to get Covid as vaccinated people, not 8. An interesting blip there is that partially vaccinated people are twice as likely to catch covid as completely unvaccinated. This may be a weird statistical blip (although it seems *very* high for that), or it may be due to lifestyle, where partially vaccinated people take risks that unvaccinated people don't, under the assumption that they are protected? E: plugged in the real numbers | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45089 Posts
On August 27 2021 17:52 Salazarz wrote: Vaccinated people likely aren't as diligent on average about mask wearing, washing hands, social distancing etc as unvaccinated ones are as well, unless we assume that all the unvaccinated folks at this point are straight up covid-denying morons which, for the sake of maintaining some faith in humanity, I refuse to do. Then you have to consider the compounding effect of vaccinations (the more vaccinated people you have, the less likely you are to encounter potential virus carriers since vaccinations reduce the odds of infection), and it's just completely insane that people are still arguing against vaccinations. I disagree on this. People who are vaccinated generally don't think that they're 100% immune to coronavirus, so they understand that wearing a mask while being vaccinated makes sense. It would be absolutely consistent for them to continue taking things seriously with multiple levels of protection. On the other hand, the people who refuse to vaccinate aren't taking things seriously enough, and while I'm sure a lot of them are at least conceding to mask mandates, they're also the ones who are more likely to refuse or avoid or dodge optional mask-wearing policies / social distancing opportunities. Anecdotal: I've been fully vaccinated for months, and I continue to wear my mask everywhere, even when it's not mandated. It increases protection from infection, and even if no one around me is infected, I would rather positively virtue signal and play it safe. Everyone I know who is vaccinated does the exact same thing, and those who are unvaccinated bitch and moan about even wearing masks because of how uncomfortable it is for them to wear a mask (and they don't think that discomfort is worth it). Sadly, there are plenty of areas in the United States where anti-vaxxers are fighting against mask mandates; they're nowhere near the concession of a willingness to even wear masks, let alone get vaccinated. It's really frustrating. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11643 Posts
On August 27 2021 19:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I disagree on this. People who are vaccinated generally don't think that they're 100% immune to coronavirus, so they understand that wearing a mask while being vaccinated makes sense. It would be absolutely consistent for them to continue taking things seriously with multiple levels of protection. On the other hand, the people who refuse to vaccinate aren't taking things seriously enough, and while I'm sure a lot of them are at least conceding to mask mandates, they're also the ones who are more likely to refuse or avoid or dodge optional mask-wearing policies / social distancing opportunities. Anecdotal: I've been fully vaccinated for months, and I continue to wear my mask everywhere, even when it's not mandated. It increases protection from infection, and even if no one around me is infected, I would rather positively virtue signal and play it safe. Everyone I know who is vaccinated does the exact same thing, and those who are unvaccinated bitch and moan about even wearing masks because of how uncomfortable it is for them to wear a mask (and they don't think that discomfort is worth it). Sadly, there are plenty of areas in the United States where anti-vaxxers are fighting against mask mandates; they're nowhere near the concession of a willingness to even wear masks, let alone get vaccinated. It's really frustrating. This fits my experience. Vaccinated people generally care, and mostly at least try to adhere to the rules. Meanwhile, there is a group of people who are anti-vaxx, anti-mask and anti-lockdown. These are usually the people who wear the mask so it doesn't cover their noses and constantly bitch about it. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45089 Posts
On August 27 2021 19:52 Simberto wrote: This fits my experience. Vaccinated people generally care, and mostly at least try to adhere to the rules. Meanwhile, there is a group of people who are anti-vaxx, anti-mask and anti-lockdown. These are usually the people who wear the mask so it doesn't cover their noses and constantly bitch about it. Ah yes, the people who "wear" their mask over their mouth but not nose, or nose but not mouth, or under their chin, or hanging off their ears... They remind me of the annoying children who stick their finger an inch from your face and say "Technically I'm not touching you!" | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
Vaccinated people tend to follow guidelines better than unvaccinated (by choice) people but I find it hard to believe that vaccinated people (as a group) wearing masks less, filling bars/restaurants more, and generally being less careful was unique to my locale. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28714 Posts
That said, cases are way up in Norway, we're looking at some more restrictions being reinserted, but hospitalizations aren't going up yet. They will probably increase some, but with how the new case load is almost entirely young people and people with the first vaccine dose, a vast majority of those infected don't get very sick, and almost nobody dies. (Since the beginning of June, we've seen 30000 confirmed cases, but only 30 deaths. Still pretty much only striking the really old - 0 of those 30 deaths were younger than 50, 2 of them 50-60, the rest mostly 80+ with some 90+.) | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5684 Posts
On August 27 2021 20:55 GreenHorizons wrote: By about a month after the mandate was lifted for vaccinated people there was maybe 10-20% of people wearing masks in my experience. Vaccinated people tend to follow guidelines better than unvaccinated (by choice) people but I find it hard to believe that vaccinated people (as a group) wearing masks less, filling bars/restaurants more, and generally being less careful was unique to my locale. How do you know if most of the people still wearing masks weren't those vaccinated and the anti-vaxxers stopped wearing masks because there's no way for anyone to check their vaccination status? Forums for anti-vaxxers are full of people with that kind of attitude. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On August 27 2021 21:23 maybenexttime wrote: How do you know if most of the people still wearing masks weren't those vaccinated and the anti-vaxxers stopped wearing masks because there's no way for anyone to check their vaccination status? Forums for anti-vaxxers are full of people with that kind of attitude. I just know the vaccination rate was much higher than the mask rate was while the mandate was lifted so I know that a great deal of vaccinated people stopped wearing masks. It's something I noticed more than a month ago and it only got worse until the mandate was finally reinstated (at the state level) this week. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5684 Posts
On August 27 2021 21:41 GreenHorizons wrote: I just know the vaccination rate was much higher than the mask rate was while the mandate was lifted so I know that a great deal of vaccinated people stopped wearing masks. It's something I noticed more than a month ago and it only got worse until the mandate was finally reinstated (at the state level) this week. Are you talking about being less careful than the unvaccinated people (which is what we're discussing) or compared to their previous behavior (during mask mandates)? | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45089 Posts
On August 27 2021 22:19 maybenexttime wrote: Are you talking about being less careful than the unvaccinated people (which is what we're discussing) or compared to their previous behavior (during mask mandates)? Thank you for pointing out this key difference. If the group of eventually-vaccinated people had a 90% masking rate (pre-vax) that dropped down to an 80% masking rate (post-vax), and that was compared to the group of never-vaxxers that consistently had a 70% masking rate, both before and after vaccines became available, then there would be a drop in masking rate for the vaccinated, but still a higher masking rate for them than for the unvaccinated. (I just made up the percents to demonstrate the distinction here.) | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23489 Posts
On August 27 2021 22:19 maybenexttime wrote: Are you talking about being less careful than the unvaccinated people (which is what we're discussing) or compared to their previous behavior (during mask mandates)? Less careful than people that are unvaccinated for not "straight up covid-denying moron" reasons (which are the people I understood Salazarz to be talking about) and themselves under mandates. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2591 Posts
I really, really, really don't want to believe that all of the 30%+ of the unvaccinated people in the US are so caught up in the bullshit that they also don't care about masks, social distancing, or whatever else either, but perhaps that's too naive. There are quite a few people here who are worried about vaccine side effects or are still holding out for 'more data' (which is silly to me, but whatever) but are still taking precautions to avoid needlessly exposing themselves. My hope is that such sort of thinking would be more prevalent as opposed to 'COVID IS GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA MUH FREEDOMZ' people, but yeah, I have absolutely no way to know that. | ||
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farvacola
United States18839 Posts
On August 27 2021 23:00 Salazarz wrote: Yeah, I don't live in the US so I don't know what it's like there other than based on what looks to me like very biased and 'us vs them'-ish arguments so it's hard to judge. In Korea, vaccination is currently bottlenecked by vaccine availability but most people are in the, 'once I get my second shot I can finally live my life normally again' sort of mindset; there is for sure a huge portion of population who are currently avoiding dining out or going to gyms, clubs, etc until they get their shots done. I really, really, really don't want to believe that all of the 30%+ of the unvaccinated people in the US are so caught up in the bullshit that they also don't care about masks, social distancing, or whatever else either, but perhaps that's too naive. There are quite a few people here who are worried about vaccine side effects or are still holding out for 'more data' (which is silly to me, but whatever) but are still taking precautions to avoid needlessly exposing themselves. My hope is that such sort of thinking would be more prevalent as opposed to 'COVID IS GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA MUH FREEDOMZ' people, but yeah, I have absolutely no way to know that. To give you an anecdotal sense of how bad things are here, my father is the signing authority for health mandates for a large metropolitan county in the Midwest. He is about to sign a mask mandate for schools and had to request a police assignment both to his office and for home checks because there are so many threats being made. | ||
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