EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 421
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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teeel141
93 Posts
On August 13 2021 04:29 JimmiC wrote: Do you think it is dangerous to assume they are lying without any proof? There was some data from Israel about reduced effectiveness of the vaccines against delta released a month ago i think. And it got dismissed and supressed. Yesterday same date came out from the US and suddenly its mainstream. How is that for proof that they would supress inconvenient data? You form these opinions along the way by noticing things, some of them you dont even remember but they form your impression of the situation. Thats all i can ever know, i can't be sure it's just my opinion. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On August 13 2021 04:48 teeel141 wrote: There was some data from Israel about reduced effectiveness of the vaccines against delta released a month ago i think. And it got dismissed and supressed. Yesterday same date came out from the US and suddenly its mainstream. How is that for proof that they would supress inconvenient data? You form these opinions along the way by noticing things, some of them you dont even remember but they form your impression of the situation. Thats all i can ever know, i can't be sure it's just my opinion. Who are ‘they’ exactly? What form did this suppression take and why is it now mainstream? If you’re trying to suppress inconvenient information surely you do it in the US, the large country with unparalleled media influence over the English speaking world as opposed to Israel which while not a backwater, equally isn’t the US. | ||
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teeel141
93 Posts
On August 13 2021 05:02 WombaT wrote: Who are ‘they’ exactly? What form did this suppression take and why is it now mainstream? If you’re trying to suppress inconvenient information surely you do it in the US, the large country with unparalleled media influence over the English speaking world as opposed to Israel which while not a backwater, equally isn’t the US. Israeli data should have been bombshell news but it wasnt. The numbers were either contested or not reported at all. Yesterdays data was bombshell news. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 13 2021 02:02 Geisterkarle wrote: I think it is utter bullshit! Seriously: Make covid-vaccination mandatory and be done with it! This is all just stupid "saving face" because basically all the governments said, that there will be no forced vaccination! This IS forced vaccination! It will promote more hate and, yes, there will be a lot of violence! Mark my words! Also I asked this already, so I quote myself: Please answer me that! When would you be fed up with it? If we read something like that: that is not a strange question! Take this as you will: Israel is already recommending a 3rd for vulnerable people. There is nothing that makes it a better idea for vulnerable people. They need it more, but its great for everyone. On August 13 2021 04:55 JimmiC wrote: It got neither dismissed nor suppressed, I know this because I also read it. It also all suggested the vaccines were still able to do their main function which is keep people out of the hospital and morgue. Exactly what do you think they should have done differently? Everyone could access the data the same they could now. But the way data works is now they have way more and know more. But the same thing is true, more vaccinated is WAY WAY better. Israel posted some really gloomy data regarding delta. Everyone else posted rosy data. Many people said "Well since Israel is the outlier, probably not so bad". Now here we are. The major thing is that crappy tests were probably just seeing if the spike proteins were similar. But if the virus reproduces a lot better or does other things better, it doesn't matter. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On August 13 2021 05:27 teeel141 wrote: Israeli data should have been bombshell news but it wasnt. The numbers were either contested or not reported at all. Yesterdays data was bombshell news. Science cannot seemingly win here. If they prematurely jump on things, or the understanding of things develop to the degree they alter messaging, then folks say they were initially lying. If they are more cautious and wait for more data, they’re suppressing the truth. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24389 Posts
On August 13 2021 07:43 WombaT wrote: Science cannot seemingly win here. If they prematurely jump on things, or the understanding of things develop to the degree they alter messaging, then folks say they were initially lying. If they are more cautious and wait for more data, they’re suppressing the truth. I think part of it is scientists getting blamed for public messaging. Scientists knew people should be wearing real masks from the start but people were told they weren't helpful because of poor manufacturing planning. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + I hit post early so to finish the thought Fauci declared delta variant ‘greatest threat’ to the nation’s efforts to eliminate Covid and the studies suggested it is around 60% more transmissible than alpha back at the end of June. www.cnbc.com We just did it anyway and people seem to now have convinced themselves this wasn't what the science was suggesting would be the outcome. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 13 2021 08:05 GreenHorizons wrote: I think part of it is scientists getting blamed for public messaging. Scientists knew people should be wearing real masks from the start but people were told they weren't helpful because of poor manufacturing planning. EDIT: + Show Spoiler + I hit post early so to finish the thought Fauci declared delta variant ‘greatest threat’ to the nation’s efforts to eliminate Covid and the studies suggested it is around 60% more transmissible than alpha back at the end of June. www.cnbc.com We just did it anyway and people seem to now have convinced themselves this wasn't what the science was suggesting would be the outcome. This felt really good to read. Thank you for defending us ;_; I will try to be brief since I could literally write a book on this topic: Some people are good at talking. Some are good at science, some are both and some are just good at getting promotions. In general, without getting into details, scientists who work in public policy have made 1 of the following determinations: 1) It is acceptable for capitalism to override science 2) Money is more important than behaving ethically It is literally not possible to last more than a year in a scientific public policy position without (1) or (2). Also 60% is SO LOW. Its hilarious/sad we thought that. We try our best but sometimes we fail. *I am now putting on my epidemiology hat* Delta is so transmissible that it starts to become a sociological question what the right thing to do is. We are talking ****Actually**** shutting down society to stop delta variant. Its either that or everyone gets it. People in epidemiology are aware of commonly cited mistakes in public policy as a matter of education. When they saw the r value (sometimes 10+ lmaooooooooooooooo), they shrugged. If they have known of case studies where the government will let thousands die for like 20k in donations, its hopeless. No one in the scientific community cares about the delta variant because its so hopeless. Everyone will get it who isn't vaccinated, no matter what. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Delta variant is truly sobering. Whilst politicians and public health spokespeople are going "Relax, we've got this", seems like the real scientists at the back are shaking to their bones and going "Game over, man, game over!" | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
Vaccinations are less a question of herd immunity and more a question of personal protection at this point because over the next year, everyone will be exposed to covid to some degree with how transmissible it's looking. There's very few countries which will reach the threshold of herd immunity even with the entire population eligible at the uptake rate the world is seeing right now. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58191293 | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 13 2021 12:51 RKC wrote: Thanks for sharing your insider insights, Mohdoo. Delta variant is truly sobering. Whilst politicians and public health spokespeople are going "Relax, we've got this", seems like the real scientists at the back are shaking to their bones and going "Game over, man, game over!" The unfortunate reality is that epidemiology feels really illogical and like a giant overreaction when done right. You can't really let public opinion be a thing with epidemiology. So long as you can have people like Rand Paul running amuck, we can only defeat easy pandemics. We basically shit the bed when it was manageable and now its something that is 0% manageable. Small rant: Things like "emergency authority" and whatnot were ideas that we came up with because they were helpful and made sense in some time of human development. It ended up being abused and associated with dictators. We as a society at some point need to understand that emergency authority serves a purpose and can save an insane amount of lives if it has proper checks and balances. But epidemiology doesn't work so long as it needs to also be politically favorable/supported. We can't have a situation where senators are playing a role or have any involvement whatsoever. Senators needs to win elections --> senators give opinions on things that people care about --> people care about a pandemic --> senators need to do/say things that people support. Big problem. It is a fundamental design rule. Epidemiology will never be largely supported during a pandemic if done in accordance with accepted science. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4456 Posts
On August 13 2021 04:27 JimmiC wrote: Why is it bullshit? You can't even go into most restaurants without a shirt on. You are comparing needing to show a vaccine passport, necessarily kept up to date with 2+ boosters per year, to wearing a shirt? | ||
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Geisterkarle
Germany3257 Posts
On August 13 2021 04:27 JimmiC wrote: Why is it bullshit? You can't even go into most restaurants without a shirt on. People don't want be around people without shirts, they also don't want to be around people who pose a danger to their family. At least you wrote "most", but you should take a vacation at a sunny beach with restaurants directly at the ocean... And about those dangers: If I see a random person on the street, I see some random person on the street. You seem to see an angel of death, that will kill you! I'm not sure, if that is a healthy mindset... Going to a restaurant is not a human right, it is a privilege. You need the money and you have to follow the rules of the establishment. Really nothing has changed other than you are now mad at this rule. It's neither! It is part of our life, that we can do that! It is part of our society! You basically are ok with dividing "mankind" into the high-and-mighty, good, intelligent (and probably good looking) vaccinated, that can go anywhere they want and the low-life, stupid (and ugly) un-vaccinated, that are cast out of our community! Maybe we let them still go to the supermarket in full safety suits... but then they have to fast-travel home and close the door! I thought we learned that segregation is not that cool... Yes the flu is not deadly to most, this is why it is not mandatory and because people are scared of it. People bring up the flu shot because its annual, which this might be, and because the way the viruses behave are similar. And if _you_ want to vaccinate against corona next year with some "updated" version, go for it. But I'm against it to make this a requirement to take part in day to day life! I'm repeating myself again and again: I'm ok with doing a mandatory vaccination against corona _now_! But after that it is all on your own and how you see risks for yourself! I think in the last 1 1/2 years we got enough information about that... and lol harassing, disagreeing is not harassing, you need thicker skin. You told me to leave town and live in the woods! That is a very interesting way of "disagreeing"... and be sure, you have to step it up a bit that I'm not laughing in my chair by that  Feel Free to Insult me | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18464 Posts
This isn't like gender or skin colour, which are not choices, and therefore protected against discrimination. If a business doesn't want to serve you unless are vaccinated, that is their right, just as it is their right to not let you in if you aren't wearing a suit and tie. I'm against government mandated vaccinations, but I am in favor of a system where Covid is not treated in public hospitals and Covid care facilities are only publicly funded for vaccinated people. You want to not be vaccinated, you pay for your own care if you happen to get severe Covid. You also don't occupy a hospital bed of someone who was in a car crash, got cancer, etc. In some ways, I am in favor of doing this for diabetes and lung/throat cancer as well, but the link between a bad life decision and these diseases is far more difficult. In the case of Covid it's very clear: almost all hospitalisations are for non-vaccinated people. So get with the program or pay for your own care. Oh, and for measles or polio this would work, but unfortunately we'd punish children for the choice of their parents, which seems very cruel. | ||
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