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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On July 31 2021 05:27 Lmui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 01:52 JimmiC wrote:On July 31 2021 01:28 Lmui wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/Washington post article about a leaked CDC document, starting on page 14 for info about delta. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/?_=1Pretty much, Delta is as transmissible as a respiratory disease gets, in the realm of chickenpox, and higher than smallpox/polio and the common cold. It's also likely to be transmissible even from infected vaccinated individuals, with marginally lower viral loads than unvaccinated. The CDC estimate for mask protectiveness (although no mention of what type) is 40-60% on source (infected), and 20-30% on personal protectiveness. Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential
to reduce transmission of the Delta variant There's a couple charts in there that are good to look over, but gist of it is without masking, spread is guaranteed, and it will quickly find any unvaccinated individual. With universal masking, you still need 60-75% vaccine coverage to see decreases in transmission (~50% in environments with high natural immunity, 35%). Alberta is proving that right now as we are starting to climb now that mask rules and every other one has removed. They have even talked about stopping quarantining close contacts who are unvaccinated. We should be pretty good for a capacity standpoint but with kids heading back to school and them still not being able to it is concerning heading into fall. Maybe as the news of the 4th wave spreads we can get our vaccinations rolling faster again. There has been a big increase in the the southern states I hope we can do that by watching what's going on and not need to experience it ourselves. Yeah... Alberta's going to demonstrate for the rest of Canada what not to do. Sorry that you live there  The chart in particular from the report which should be scary. This is assuming Delta has a R0 of 5 (estimated R between 5-9.5), so this is the best case scenario. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PnMJNmZ.png) Without very high natural immunity + masks + higher vaccination rates than can be achieved right now without vaccinating kids, you can't stop it without other interventions. Masks alone can bring it down to a manageable point, but it needs to be universal.
NO! Masks alone make next to no difference. Please post sources for statements like that. There have been massive outbreaks despite your precious "universal masks" and the virus has been kept under control without them. They are overrated, and only have any statistical effect at all in combination with hand hygiene and distancing. Between the 3 things, masks are in a solid last place.
What should be debated now is how the UK wave has hit its peak already without any changes in the measures. Have we been too quick to credit the measures for tendencies which would happen anyway? I mean, if we oblige red socks 2-3 weeks before a wave peak, it doesn't mean they are effective...
This will likely be heavily researched for a long time, and we are probably too emotionally entangled in both promoting and hating covid-19 measures to see things clearly right now.
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On August 01 2021 17:52 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2021 05:27 Lmui wrote:On July 31 2021 01:52 JimmiC wrote:On July 31 2021 01:28 Lmui wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/Washington post article about a leaked CDC document, starting on page 14 for info about delta. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/?_=1Pretty much, Delta is as transmissible as a respiratory disease gets, in the realm of chickenpox, and higher than smallpox/polio and the common cold. It's also likely to be transmissible even from infected vaccinated individuals, with marginally lower viral loads than unvaccinated. The CDC estimate for mask protectiveness (although no mention of what type) is 40-60% on source (infected), and 20-30% on personal protectiveness. Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential
to reduce transmission of the Delta variant There's a couple charts in there that are good to look over, but gist of it is without masking, spread is guaranteed, and it will quickly find any unvaccinated individual. With universal masking, you still need 60-75% vaccine coverage to see decreases in transmission (~50% in environments with high natural immunity, 35%). Alberta is proving that right now as we are starting to climb now that mask rules and every other one has removed. They have even talked about stopping quarantining close contacts who are unvaccinated. We should be pretty good for a capacity standpoint but with kids heading back to school and them still not being able to it is concerning heading into fall. Maybe as the news of the 4th wave spreads we can get our vaccinations rolling faster again. There has been a big increase in the the southern states I hope we can do that by watching what's going on and not need to experience it ourselves. Yeah... Alberta's going to demonstrate for the rest of Canada what not to do. Sorry that you live there The chart in particular from the report which should be scary. This is assuming Delta has a R0 of 5 (estimated R between 5-9.5), so this is the best case scenario. Without very high natural immunity + masks + higher vaccination rates than can be achieved right now without vaccinating kids, you can't stop it without other interventions. Masks alone can bring it down to a manageable point, but it needs to be universal. NO! Masks alone make next to no difference. Please post sources for statements like that. There have been massive outbreaks despite your precious "universal masks" and the virus has been kept under control without them. They are overrated, and only have any statistical effect at all in combination with hand hygiene and distancing. Between the 3 things, masks are in a solid last place. What should be debated now is how the UK wave has hit its peak already without any changes in the measures. Have we been too quick to credit the measures for tendencies which would happen anyway? I mean, if we oblige red socks 2-3 weeks before a wave peak, it doesn't mean they are effective... This will likely be heavily researched for a long time, and we are probably too emotionally entangled in both promoting and hating covid-19 measures to see things clearly right now.
Conclusive and comprehensive evidence for the efficacy of various face masks has been posted in this thread. See comments #8135 and #8146 comparing no masks vs surgical masks vs N95 (or FFP2) masks.
https://tl.net/forum/general/556693-coronavirus-and-you?page=407#8135
https://tl.net/forum/general/556693-coronavirus-and-you?page=408#8146
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On August 01 2021 18:04 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 17:52 Slydie wrote:On July 31 2021 05:27 Lmui wrote:On July 31 2021 01:52 JimmiC wrote:On July 31 2021 01:28 Lmui wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/Washington post article about a leaked CDC document, starting on page 14 for info about delta. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/?_=1Pretty much, Delta is as transmissible as a respiratory disease gets, in the realm of chickenpox, and higher than smallpox/polio and the common cold. It's also likely to be transmissible even from infected vaccinated individuals, with marginally lower viral loads than unvaccinated. The CDC estimate for mask protectiveness (although no mention of what type) is 40-60% on source (infected), and 20-30% on personal protectiveness. Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential
to reduce transmission of the Delta variant There's a couple charts in there that are good to look over, but gist of it is without masking, spread is guaranteed, and it will quickly find any unvaccinated individual. With universal masking, you still need 60-75% vaccine coverage to see decreases in transmission (~50% in environments with high natural immunity, 35%). Alberta is proving that right now as we are starting to climb now that mask rules and every other one has removed. They have even talked about stopping quarantining close contacts who are unvaccinated. We should be pretty good for a capacity standpoint but with kids heading back to school and them still not being able to it is concerning heading into fall. Maybe as the news of the 4th wave spreads we can get our vaccinations rolling faster again. There has been a big increase in the the southern states I hope we can do that by watching what's going on and not need to experience it ourselves. Yeah... Alberta's going to demonstrate for the rest of Canada what not to do. Sorry that you live there The chart in particular from the report which should be scary. This is assuming Delta has a R0 of 5 (estimated R between 5-9.5), so this is the best case scenario. Without very high natural immunity + masks + higher vaccination rates than can be achieved right now without vaccinating kids, you can't stop it without other interventions. Masks alone can bring it down to a manageable point, but it needs to be universal. NO! Masks alone make next to no difference. Please post sources for statements like that. There have been massive outbreaks despite your precious "universal masks" and the virus has been kept under control without them. They are overrated, and only have any statistical effect at all in combination with hand hygiene and distancing. Between the 3 things, masks are in a solid last place. What should be debated now is how the UK wave has hit its peak already without any changes in the measures. Have we been too quick to credit the measures for tendencies which would happen anyway? I mean, if we oblige red socks 2-3 weeks before a wave peak, it doesn't mean they are effective... This will likely be heavily researched for a long time, and we are probably too emotionally entangled in both promoting and hating covid-19 measures to see things clearly right now. The only way the virus has been controlled is harsh lockdowns until vaccines. There is no debate on what happened in the UK, they have 70 % one dose 57%fully. You can just look at Florida compared to Vermont to see what a difference it makes. There is also no questions masks help. The sad part is we shouldn't need them but because of people making bad choices we will again. If everyone vaccinated there would be no need. And the height of lunacy is the people madness about masks are the same ones refusing vaccines. They are creating their own problem then crying about it.
Yeah, that is the absurd thing. The crazy people who are against masks, against vaccinations and against lockdowns. And they were against all of that from the start. It is just crazy. What is their plan? How do they hope for this to go well? No one knows. All we know is that we constantly have to fight these crazy people to be able to fight the pandemic. And then, once we finally get something done and the pandemic starts going down, they claim victory and that the pandemic isn't really that big of a problem anyways.
It is fucking infuriating. If we listened to these assholes and didn't constantly fight their absurd idiocy, we would be having out of control spread everywhere from the start, with overwhelmed hospitals and even more numbers of people dying.
I just don't get it. How can you be against all the things which work against the pandemic at once, and yet not have any plan on how to deal with it? How do the brains of these people work? Do they think that if we just stopped doing stuff against the pandemic, the pandemic goes away?
Yes, everyone hates masks, hates lockdowns, and getting vaccinated isn't the most fun experience one can have, either. But it is that or uncontrolled pandemic.
I have recently seen slogans by these crazypeople sprayed onto roads and so forth here where i live.
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Delusion is thinking total compliance will end COVID after 18 months of this Jimmi.
Who benefits from lockdowns? Big business and the ultra wealthy.Who suffers most? Small businesses, Self employed, casual workers, hospitality workers, ‘ordinary people’.So after 18 months of this you can’t forsee another variant that the vaccines don’t work well against (Vaccines are already less effective against Delta hence the calls for boosters and Israel rolling out 3rd shot) and we’re still going through lockdowns a year from now? You can’t see that possibility?
So we’ve seen a high number of small businesses go bust due to the lockdowns.I suggest we will see more lockdowns over rising cases over the coming Nth Hemisphere winter, more small businesses will go broke, more of the poorer folks, self employed living paycheck to paycheck will be destitute.In the end more will be reliant on government (More control over these people) and big business will be bigger, the ultra wealthy will be even wealthier.
Now we talk for two seconds about the vaccine passports.Say you need a vaccine passport to enter restaurants, cafes, bars, libraries, theatres, museums, sports, workplaces like is being rolled out in France, Italy, UK, UAE, Saudi, Israel and elsewhere.Your freedom is completely reliant on large pharmaceutical companies and Government edict.If the government states you need four booster shots this year, you must take them or have your freedom pass removed.The large pharmaceutical companies make ever-increased profits.You see no problem here?
Now we will see if there are lockdowns this winter as i suggest but it’s really important for people like you to take a step back and see where our society is going.Inequality is rising incredibly fast due to policies you support and governments are using COVID as an excuse to bring in measures and controls we are more used to seeing in totalitarian states like China.
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On August 01 2021 18:40 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 18:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Delusion is thinking total compliance will end COVID after 18 months of this Jimmi.
Who benefits from lockdowns? Big business and the ultra wealthy.Who suffers most? Small businesses, Self employed, casual workers, hospitality workers, ‘ordinary people’.So after 18 months of this you can’t forsee another variant that the vaccines don’t work well against (Vaccines are already less effective against Delta hence the calls for boosters and Israel rolling out 3rd shot) and we’re still going through lockdowns a year from now? You can’t see that possibility?
So we’ve seen a high number of small businesses go bust due to the lockdowns.I suggest we will see more lockdowns over rising cases over the coming Nth Hemisphere winter, more small businesses will go broke, more of the poorer folks, self employed living paycheck to paycheck will be destitute.In the end more will be reliant on government (More control over these people) and big business will be bigger, the ultra wealthy will be even wealthier.
Now we talk for two seconds about the vaccine passports.Say you need a vaccine passport to enter restaurants, cafes, bars, libraries, theatres, museums, sports, workplaces like is being rolled out in France, Italy, UK, UAE, Saudi, Israel and elsewhere.Your freedom is completely reliant on large pharmaceutical companies and Government edict.If the government states you need four booster shots this year, you must take them or have your freedom pass removed.The large pharmaceutical companies make ever-increased profits.You see no problem here?
Now we will see if there are lockdowns this winter as i suggest but it’s really important for people like you to take a step back and see where our society is going.Inequality is rising incredibly fast due to policies you support and governments are using COVID as an excuse to bring in measures and controls we are more used to seeing in totalitarian states like China.
This is the ranting of a conspiracy theory nut. For example, fox News Corp has a vaccine passport. Also, the way they work is people who don't have vaccines just have to get a rapid test before they enter. They are inconvenienced for under a hour, wahhhhh. For entering countries, duh, why would you risk huge healthcare costs for a tiny economic gain from the minority. This policy fits your politics perfectly if you were not in a fantasy world where covid is not real. Yes compliance will stop the pandemic, it always would have and now with vaccination its easy. The policies I support do not increase inequality, the ones you do do. And your behaviors do. Just get vaccinated and it's over. Pretty sure your actual reason not too is then you have to admit your wrong and your faith based social group where you all pretend some secret group is behind your problems won't exist and you will have to deal with the much more difficult but factually true world where almost all of your problems are because of your own behavior.
Lockdown policies have accelerated everything.The rich are getting richer.The poor are getting poorer.Small businesses are going bust, big businesses like Amazon are making bigger profits.The domestic vaccine passports are rolling out.This isn’t ‘theory’ anymore, we’re way past that.
Also not sure why you think I would care the Fox News has a vaccine passport to enter.The question was are you fine with your freedom (vaccine passport) being controlled by government edict.Like i stated the government says you need 4 booster shots this year or however many or you lose your ability to go shopping, sports, museums, theatres, workplaces etc.Pharmaceutical profits continually rise, these companies continue to have no financial liability for side effects.You have no problem with this? It was a question, to you.You are fine with it?
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On August 01 2021 18:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 18:11 Simberto wrote:On August 01 2021 18:04 JimmiC wrote:On August 01 2021 17:52 Slydie wrote:On July 31 2021 05:27 Lmui wrote:On July 31 2021 01:52 JimmiC wrote:On July 31 2021 01:28 Lmui wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/Washington post article about a leaked CDC document, starting on page 14 for info about delta. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/?_=1Pretty much, Delta is as transmissible as a respiratory disease gets, in the realm of chickenpox, and higher than smallpox/polio and the common cold. It's also likely to be transmissible even from infected vaccinated individuals, with marginally lower viral loads than unvaccinated. The CDC estimate for mask protectiveness (although no mention of what type) is 40-60% on source (infected), and 20-30% on personal protectiveness. Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential
to reduce transmission of the Delta variant There's a couple charts in there that are good to look over, but gist of it is without masking, spread is guaranteed, and it will quickly find any unvaccinated individual. With universal masking, you still need 60-75% vaccine coverage to see decreases in transmission (~50% in environments with high natural immunity, 35%). Alberta is proving that right now as we are starting to climb now that mask rules and every other one has removed. They have even talked about stopping quarantining close contacts who are unvaccinated. We should be pretty good for a capacity standpoint but with kids heading back to school and them still not being able to it is concerning heading into fall. Maybe as the news of the 4th wave spreads we can get our vaccinations rolling faster again. There has been a big increase in the the southern states I hope we can do that by watching what's going on and not need to experience it ourselves. Yeah... Alberta's going to demonstrate for the rest of Canada what not to do. Sorry that you live there The chart in particular from the report which should be scary. This is assuming Delta has a R0 of 5 (estimated R between 5-9.5), so this is the best case scenario. Without very high natural immunity + masks + higher vaccination rates than can be achieved right now without vaccinating kids, you can't stop it without other interventions. Masks alone can bring it down to a manageable point, but it needs to be universal. NO! Masks alone make next to no difference. Please post sources for statements like that. There have been massive outbreaks despite your precious "universal masks" and the virus has been kept under control without them. They are overrated, and only have any statistical effect at all in combination with hand hygiene and distancing. Between the 3 things, masks are in a solid last place. What should be debated now is how the UK wave has hit its peak already without any changes in the measures. Have we been too quick to credit the measures for tendencies which would happen anyway? I mean, if we oblige red socks 2-3 weeks before a wave peak, it doesn't mean they are effective... This will likely be heavily researched for a long time, and we are probably too emotionally entangled in both promoting and hating covid-19 measures to see things clearly right now. The only way the virus has been controlled is harsh lockdowns until vaccines. There is no debate on what happened in the UK, they have 70 % one dose 57%fully. You can just look at Florida compared to Vermont to see what a difference it makes. There is also no questions masks help. The sad part is we shouldn't need them but because of people making bad choices we will again. If everyone vaccinated there would be no need. And the height of lunacy is the people madness about masks are the same ones refusing vaccines. They are creating their own problem then crying about it. Yeah, that is the absurd thing. The crazy people who are against masks, against vaccinations and against lockdowns. And they were against all of that from the start. It is just crazy. What is their plan? How do they hope for this to go well? No one knows. All we know is that we constantly have to fight these crazy people to be able to fight the pandemic. And then, once we finally get something done and the pandemic starts going down, they claim victory and that the pandemic isn't really that big of a problem anyways. It is fucking infuriating. If we listened to these assholes and didn't constantly fight their absurd idiocy, we would be having out of control spread everywhere from the start, with overwhelmed hospitals and even more numbers of people dying. I just don't get it. How can you be against all the things which work against the pandemic at once, and yet not have any plan on how to deal with it? How do the brains of these people work? Do they think that if we just stopped doing stuff against the pandemic, the pandemic goes away? Yes, everyone hates masks, hates lockdowns, and getting vaccinated isn't the most fun experience one can have, either. But it is that or uncontrolled pandemic. I have recently seen slogans by these crazypeople sprayed onto roads and so forth here where i live. I agree with everything you posted and would like to add that it also gets extremely tiring to have to explain each time that as cases rise, hospitalizations rise weeks later and deaths after that. Yet each time it appears to shock them. At least now in highly vaccinated areas hospitalizations are remaining fairly low (all though WAY higher than the flu because even in higher areas % wise many individuals are not). Vaccines are more or less the silver bullet everyone has wanted. I was reading a doctor debunking all the common reasons and it was hilarious how backwards they are. A couple that stood out were , " I'm worried about erectile dysfunction and infertility from the vaccine " doctor " there is zero evidence of any of that from vaccines, their is high rates of that with covid". I don't want to be a guinea pig" "you are not, it was tested riggerously, there is now been billions of doses given, what we are testing on the spot, and who are guinea pigs are people receiving treatments if you don't want to be tested on, get the vaccine" . And my favorite " I don't want to become magnetic" , doctor " the vaccine won't make you magnetic, nothing will make you magnetic." And yes people are actually refusing the vaccine out of fear of becoming magnetic. Please consider if you are hesitant that these people are in your peer group.
Hm. Now i am wondering how one could make people magnetic. I guess the simplest way would be to simply implant magnets below their skin? I don't know if consuming lots of iron also works, because i am bad at biology and don't actually know if the iron in the body is in a form that allows it to be magnetized?
On August 01 2021 18:48 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 18:40 JimmiC wrote:On August 01 2021 18:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Delusion is thinking total compliance will end COVID after 18 months of this Jimmi.
Who benefits from lockdowns? Big business and the ultra wealthy.Who suffers most? Small businesses, Self employed, casual workers, hospitality workers, ‘ordinary people’.So after 18 months of this you can’t forsee another variant that the vaccines don’t work well against (Vaccines are already less effective against Delta hence the calls for boosters and Israel rolling out 3rd shot) and we’re still going through lockdowns a year from now? You can’t see that possibility?
So we’ve seen a high number of small businesses go bust due to the lockdowns.I suggest we will see more lockdowns over rising cases over the coming Nth Hemisphere winter, more small businesses will go broke, more of the poorer folks, self employed living paycheck to paycheck will be destitute.In the end more will be reliant on government (More control over these people) and big business will be bigger, the ultra wealthy will be even wealthier.
Now we talk for two seconds about the vaccine passports.Say you need a vaccine passport to enter restaurants, cafes, bars, libraries, theatres, museums, sports, workplaces like is being rolled out in France, Italy, UK, UAE, Saudi, Israel and elsewhere.Your freedom is completely reliant on large pharmaceutical companies and Government edict.If the government states you need four booster shots this year, you must take them or have your freedom pass removed.The large pharmaceutical companies make ever-increased profits.You see no problem here?
Now we will see if there are lockdowns this winter as i suggest but it’s really important for people like you to take a step back and see where our society is going.Inequality is rising incredibly fast due to policies you support and governments are using COVID as an excuse to bring in measures and controls we are more used to seeing in totalitarian states like China.
This is the ranting of a conspiracy theory nut. For example, fox News Corp has a vaccine passport. Also, the way they work is people who don't have vaccines just have to get a rapid test before they enter. They are inconvenienced for under a hour, wahhhhh. For entering countries, duh, why would you risk huge healthcare costs for a tiny economic gain from the minority. This policy fits your politics perfectly if you were not in a fantasy world where covid is not real. Yes compliance will stop the pandemic, it always would have and now with vaccination its easy. The policies I support do not increase inequality, the ones you do do. And your behaviors do. Just get vaccinated and it's over. Pretty sure your actual reason not too is then you have to admit your wrong and your faith based social group where you all pretend some secret group is behind your problems won't exist and you will have to deal with the much more difficult but factually true world where almost all of your problems are because of your own behavior. Lockdown policies have accelerated everything.The rich are getting richer.The poor are getting poorer.Small businesses are going bust, big businesses like Amazon are making bigger profits.The domestic vaccine passports are rolling out.This isn’t ‘theory’ anymore, we’re way past that.
Yes. The rich are always getting richer, the poor are always getting poorer. That is what happens when you allow infinite money in politics.
People don't have problems with these facts, people have problems with the shadowy conspiracy that you allude is behind all of this. You imply that the main goal of covid measures is to make the rich richer and to fight small businesses. And that vaccine passports exist only for some shadowy "control" purpose.
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On August 01 2021 18:49 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 18:34 JimmiC wrote:On August 01 2021 18:11 Simberto wrote:On August 01 2021 18:04 JimmiC wrote:On August 01 2021 17:52 Slydie wrote:On July 31 2021 05:27 Lmui wrote:On July 31 2021 01:52 JimmiC wrote:On July 31 2021 01:28 Lmui wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/29/cdc-mask-guidance/Washington post article about a leaked CDC document, starting on page 14 for info about delta. https://www.washingtonpost.com/context/cdc-breakthrough-infections/94390e3a-5e45-44a5-ac40-2744e4e25f2e/?_=1Pretty much, Delta is as transmissible as a respiratory disease gets, in the realm of chickenpox, and higher than smallpox/polio and the common cold. It's also likely to be transmissible even from infected vaccinated individuals, with marginally lower viral loads than unvaccinated. The CDC estimate for mask protectiveness (although no mention of what type) is 40-60% on source (infected), and 20-30% on personal protectiveness. Given higher transmissibility and current vaccine coverage, universal masking is essential
to reduce transmission of the Delta variant There's a couple charts in there that are good to look over, but gist of it is without masking, spread is guaranteed, and it will quickly find any unvaccinated individual. With universal masking, you still need 60-75% vaccine coverage to see decreases in transmission (~50% in environments with high natural immunity, 35%). Alberta is proving that right now as we are starting to climb now that mask rules and every other one has removed. They have even talked about stopping quarantining close contacts who are unvaccinated. We should be pretty good for a capacity standpoint but with kids heading back to school and them still not being able to it is concerning heading into fall. Maybe as the news of the 4th wave spreads we can get our vaccinations rolling faster again. There has been a big increase in the the southern states I hope we can do that by watching what's going on and not need to experience it ourselves. Yeah... Alberta's going to demonstrate for the rest of Canada what not to do. Sorry that you live there The chart in particular from the report which should be scary. This is assuming Delta has a R0 of 5 (estimated R between 5-9.5), so this is the best case scenario. Without very high natural immunity + masks + higher vaccination rates than can be achieved right now without vaccinating kids, you can't stop it without other interventions. Masks alone can bring it down to a manageable point, but it needs to be universal. NO! Masks alone make next to no difference. Please post sources for statements like that. There have been massive outbreaks despite your precious "universal masks" and the virus has been kept under control without them. They are overrated, and only have any statistical effect at all in combination with hand hygiene and distancing. Between the 3 things, masks are in a solid last place. What should be debated now is how the UK wave has hit its peak already without any changes in the measures. Have we been too quick to credit the measures for tendencies which would happen anyway? I mean, if we oblige red socks 2-3 weeks before a wave peak, it doesn't mean they are effective... This will likely be heavily researched for a long time, and we are probably too emotionally entangled in both promoting and hating covid-19 measures to see things clearly right now. The only way the virus has been controlled is harsh lockdowns until vaccines. There is no debate on what happened in the UK, they have 70 % one dose 57%fully. You can just look at Florida compared to Vermont to see what a difference it makes. There is also no questions masks help. The sad part is we shouldn't need them but because of people making bad choices we will again. If everyone vaccinated there would be no need. And the height of lunacy is the people madness about masks are the same ones refusing vaccines. They are creating their own problem then crying about it. Yeah, that is the absurd thing. The crazy people who are against masks, against vaccinations and against lockdowns. And they were against all of that from the start. It is just crazy. What is their plan? How do they hope for this to go well? No one knows. All we know is that we constantly have to fight these crazy people to be able to fight the pandemic. And then, once we finally get something done and the pandemic starts going down, they claim victory and that the pandemic isn't really that big of a problem anyways. It is fucking infuriating. If we listened to these assholes and didn't constantly fight their absurd idiocy, we would be having out of control spread everywhere from the start, with overwhelmed hospitals and even more numbers of people dying. I just don't get it. How can you be against all the things which work against the pandemic at once, and yet not have any plan on how to deal with it? How do the brains of these people work? Do they think that if we just stopped doing stuff against the pandemic, the pandemic goes away? Yes, everyone hates masks, hates lockdowns, and getting vaccinated isn't the most fun experience one can have, either. But it is that or uncontrolled pandemic. I have recently seen slogans by these crazypeople sprayed onto roads and so forth here where i live. I agree with everything you posted and would like to add that it also gets extremely tiring to have to explain each time that as cases rise, hospitalizations rise weeks later and deaths after that. Yet each time it appears to shock them. At least now in highly vaccinated areas hospitalizations are remaining fairly low (all though WAY higher than the flu because even in higher areas % wise many individuals are not). Vaccines are more or less the silver bullet everyone has wanted. I was reading a doctor debunking all the common reasons and it was hilarious how backwards they are. A couple that stood out were , " I'm worried about erectile dysfunction and infertility from the vaccine " doctor " there is zero evidence of any of that from vaccines, their is high rates of that with covid". I don't want to be a guinea pig" "you are not, it was tested riggerously, there is now been billions of doses given, what we are testing on the spot, and who are guinea pigs are people receiving treatments if you don't want to be tested on, get the vaccine" . And my favorite " I don't want to become magnetic" , doctor " the vaccine won't make you magnetic, nothing will make you magnetic." And yes people are actually refusing the vaccine out of fear of becoming magnetic. Please consider if you are hesitant that these people are in your peer group. Hm. Now i am wondering how one could make people magnetic. I guess the simplest way would be to simply implant magnets below their skin? I don't know if consuming lots of iron also works, because i am bad at biology and don't actually know if the iron in the body is in a form that allows it to be magnetized? Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 18:48 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On August 01 2021 18:40 JimmiC wrote:On August 01 2021 18:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Delusion is thinking total compliance will end COVID after 18 months of this Jimmi.
Who benefits from lockdowns? Big business and the ultra wealthy.Who suffers most? Small businesses, Self employed, casual workers, hospitality workers, ‘ordinary people’.So after 18 months of this you can’t forsee another variant that the vaccines don’t work well against (Vaccines are already less effective against Delta hence the calls for boosters and Israel rolling out 3rd shot) and we’re still going through lockdowns a year from now? You can’t see that possibility?
So we’ve seen a high number of small businesses go bust due to the lockdowns.I suggest we will see more lockdowns over rising cases over the coming Nth Hemisphere winter, more small businesses will go broke, more of the poorer folks, self employed living paycheck to paycheck will be destitute.In the end more will be reliant on government (More control over these people) and big business will be bigger, the ultra wealthy will be even wealthier.
Now we talk for two seconds about the vaccine passports.Say you need a vaccine passport to enter restaurants, cafes, bars, libraries, theatres, museums, sports, workplaces like is being rolled out in France, Italy, UK, UAE, Saudi, Israel and elsewhere.Your freedom is completely reliant on large pharmaceutical companies and Government edict.If the government states you need four booster shots this year, you must take them or have your freedom pass removed.The large pharmaceutical companies make ever-increased profits.You see no problem here?
Now we will see if there are lockdowns this winter as i suggest but it’s really important for people like you to take a step back and see where our society is going.Inequality is rising incredibly fast due to policies you support and governments are using COVID as an excuse to bring in measures and controls we are more used to seeing in totalitarian states like China.
This is the ranting of a conspiracy theory nut. For example, fox News Corp has a vaccine passport. Also, the way they work is people who don't have vaccines just have to get a rapid test before they enter. They are inconvenienced for under a hour, wahhhhh. For entering countries, duh, why would you risk huge healthcare costs for a tiny economic gain from the minority. This policy fits your politics perfectly if you were not in a fantasy world where covid is not real. Yes compliance will stop the pandemic, it always would have and now with vaccination its easy. The policies I support do not increase inequality, the ones you do do. And your behaviors do. Just get vaccinated and it's over. Pretty sure your actual reason not too is then you have to admit your wrong and your faith based social group where you all pretend some secret group is behind your problems won't exist and you will have to deal with the much more difficult but factually true world where almost all of your problems are because of your own behavior. Lockdown policies have accelerated everything.The rich are getting richer.The poor are getting poorer.Small businesses are going bust, big businesses like Amazon are making bigger profits.The domestic vaccine passports are rolling out.This isn’t ‘theory’ anymore, we’re way past that. You imply that the main goal of covid measures is to make the rich richer and to fight small businesses. And that vaccine passports exist only for some shadowy "control" purpose.
Whether that is the main goal or not, do you agree it has happened at a faster pace due to covid and the lockdowns?
Of course the vaccine passport is about control.Peoples ability to live and survive could be completely cut off instantly unless you follow government edict.This should be easy to understand.
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My points make sense but if you’re not willing to agree with basic ones like ‘Lockdowns are increasing inequality more rapidly than before’ then the discussion is meaningless.I’ve already posted links on vaccinated people catching covid at high rates and being able to spread covid (same viral load as unvaccinated) so like i say, i expect more lockdowns over winter due to cases, not deaths.Your support of lockdowns increases inequality.
That we’re 18 months in and you are unwilling to talk about where we could be heading with regards to totalitarian governments and vaccine passports is bizarre to me.Then again people here haven’t been able to leave this country for 18 months, if you’d have said that a few years ago nobody would have believed it.Army checkpoints in Sydney.QR code checkins every business and workplace.Dissenting voices banned from social media and youtube.Yeah no way this could go pear shaped.
But you know what can kill you, and has killed millions? Covid.
I am 36, not overweight, healthy, no comorbidities.I am willing to take that risk.Do not make choices for me.
Edit: also, if you are actually worried about the government or some shadow group controlling people through vaccines or testing their compliance. Do you really think posting that you are against them on a public message board is wise?
People like you scare me far more than the government.
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On August 01 2021 18:48 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2021 18:40 JimmiC wrote:On August 01 2021 18:31 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Delusion is thinking total compliance will end COVID after 18 months of this Jimmi.
Who benefits from lockdowns? Big business and the ultra wealthy.Who suffers most? Small businesses, Self employed, casual workers, hospitality workers, ‘ordinary people’.So after 18 months of this you can’t forsee another variant that the vaccines don’t work well against (Vaccines are already less effective against Delta hence the calls for boosters and Israel rolling out 3rd shot) and we’re still going through lockdowns a year from now? You can’t see that possibility?
So we’ve seen a high number of small businesses go bust due to the lockdowns.I suggest we will see more lockdowns over rising cases over the coming Nth Hemisphere winter, more small businesses will go broke, more of the poorer folks, self employed living paycheck to paycheck will be destitute.In the end more will be reliant on government (More control over these people) and big business will be bigger, the ultra wealthy will be even wealthier.
Now we talk for two seconds about the vaccine passports.Say you need a vaccine passport to enter restaurants, cafes, bars, libraries, theatres, museums, sports, workplaces like is being rolled out in France, Italy, UK, UAE, Saudi, Israel and elsewhere.Your freedom is completely reliant on large pharmaceutical companies and Government edict.If the government states you need four booster shots this year, you must take them or have your freedom pass removed.The large pharmaceutical companies make ever-increased profits.You see no problem here?
Now we will see if there are lockdowns this winter as i suggest but it’s really important for people like you to take a step back and see where our society is going.Inequality is rising incredibly fast due to policies you support and governments are using COVID as an excuse to bring in measures and controls we are more used to seeing in totalitarian states like China.
This is the ranting of a conspiracy theory nut. For example, fox News Corp has a vaccine passport. Also, the way they work is people who don't have vaccines just have to get a rapid test before they enter. They are inconvenienced for under a hour, wahhhhh. For entering countries, duh, why would you risk huge healthcare costs for a tiny economic gain from the minority. This policy fits your politics perfectly if you were not in a fantasy world where covid is not real. Yes compliance will stop the pandemic, it always would have and now with vaccination its easy. The policies I support do not increase inequality, the ones you do do. And your behaviors do. Just get vaccinated and it's over. Pretty sure your actual reason not too is then you have to admit your wrong and your faith based social group where you all pretend some secret group is behind your problems won't exist and you will have to deal with the much more difficult but factually true world where almost all of your problems are because of your own behavior. Lockdown policies have accelerated everything.The rich are getting richer.The poor are getting poorer.Small businesses are going bust, big businesses like Amazon are making bigger profits.The domestic vaccine passports are rolling out.This isn’t ‘theory’ anymore, we’re way past that. Also not sure why you think I would care the Fox News has a vaccine passport to enter.The question was are you fine with your freedom (vaccine passport) being controlled by government edict.Like i stated the government says you need 4 booster shots this year or however many or you lose your ability to go shopping, sports, museums, theatres, workplaces etc.Pharmaceutical profits continually rise, these companies continue to have no financial liability for side effects.You have no problem with this? It was a question, to you.You are fine with it?
LOL, you are crazy and delusional.
First of all, not a single developed country instituted a vaccine passport before a safe and effective vaccine was widely available free of charge. There is also no science behind requiring 4 booster shots nor is any country pushing that. The governments (at least in Europe) are also not in the pockets of the pharmaceutical companies, as you're insinuating. The EU was negotiating the prices with each provider.
Secondly, the manufacturers do have at least partial financial liability in the EU. What you are talking about applies only to the US (and probably poor/developing countries).
Your denial of reality makes lockdowns a necessity.
Edit: Also, not everything is about you. An infected person has, on average, much higher chance of killing other people than dying from COVID.
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im inclined to agree with nettles more on the issue of dumb government policy in relation to lockdowns. i mean i could care less about his point about wealth disparity and big pharma, but whether governments are justified in continuing to maintain restrictions without an end date in sight.
the likelihood of another variant coming out after delta is highly likely and if that means our current vaccines lose effectiveness, eventually governments are going to have to come terms with the fact that no amount of regulation will save all lives. the premise that citizens need to live with mandated lockdowns on and off for the rest of their lives because if not "people will die" is ludicrous.
it is sheer arrogance and naivety to think that any government can micromanage their citizens' lives in order to reduce deaths against a natural (ignoring the lab originated theory) disease, and any attempt to do so is totalitarian. the governments role in any free democratic country should be to create an environment where citizens can benefit from making the right choices. if vaccines are developed, the governments role is to ensure that these vaccines are made available to its citizens so that the citizens can make the responsible choice to protect themselves and their families.
if citizens refuse to take the vaccine and protect themselves, then the consequences of that are on them. the government shouldnt impose themselves further on the citizens because they think the livelihood of their citizens must be guaranteed by the government and therefore bear the burden of responsibility. thats not how a sensibly functioning society works; you have trust that your citizens will take personal responsibility for their lives and others, and make correct decisions. let people who make poor decisions in their life live with those decisions. this new trend of making people have to constantly pick up the slack of others who make dumb decisions repeatedly is not only stupid, its literally socialist.
in relation to australias current situation, im extremely pissed off at our government (although ive been unhappy with our politicians for years already). i live in sydney and we are currently set to be locked down for 9 weeks with an expectation of the lockdown to go for much longer because our current position is to keep lockdowns until trasmission hits zero.
thats just never going to fucking happen anytime soon. our government has also fucked up on vaccination rollout and so we are lagging behind other countries, yet our government has also set a target at 80% vaccinations before they consider international travel.
we apparently have ~3 million doses of AZ that are being unused because our government shat all over it in the media, only now to backtrack and say that people should get vaccinated with whatever is immediately available. when you lockdown a city and tell everyone transmission needs to be zero, but then youve also destroyed the credibility of our most available vaccine, then its hard for anyone to really be happy with letting the government continue to dictate our lives.
setting a 80% target is also fking stupid because if 75% get vaccinated and we struggle to hit that last 5%, 75% of people are being held prisoners by the remaining 25%. thats just not acceptable. if the government successfully supplies enough vaccines for 100% of our population to be vaccinated should every individual make the choice to do so, then all covid restrictions should be relaxed. if any percentage of people refuse to protect themselves for whatever the reason and they die, thats their own fking fault.
i could care less about big pharma and whether they profit from this or not. as someone whos had to break off a relationship because of travel bans and had my company be reduced from 300+ employees to ~30 because of our governments incompetence, im pretty much ready to smuggle myself out of the country if i have to if these restrictions go on for any longer. why should i have to continue to make sacrifices for everything i have worked for despite doing everything i can personally do to combat the virus (masks, vaccines etc.) just because the government believes that they need to continue to impose regulations and micromanage lives because some fucks dont care whether they get sick or not?
some people might think my stance is selfish, but ill say what ive already said earlier. its completely naive and arrogant to think that you can prevent deaths from such a large scale disease like this. especially if new variants come out repeatedly and our current medicine loses efficacy, people will continue to die. its clear already that many people around the world are losing patience with restrictions and governments need to realise that on some level you just have to accept that in the face of a new major disease theres nothing you can do but just do your part and live your life.
end rant.
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This would be a legit point if everyone in danger could get vaccinated. But there are people who simply cannot be. So the people choosing not to be vaccinated are not only endangering themselves. If that was the case I would also say screw them - their problem.
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On August 01 2021 21:24 justanothertownie wrote:
This would be a legit point if everyone in danger could get vaccinated. But there are people who simply cannot be. So the people choosing not to be vaccinated are not only endangering themselves. If that was the case I would also say screw them - their problem.
i knew this point would get brought up and my answer to this is unfortunately the answer to this issue is far more complex than simply making the government intervene with regulations.
the real solution to that involves tackling a wide range of issues, most importantly education, but matters also such as poverty, welfare. the facts are those people are reliant on society to be responsible and artificially creating a "safe" environment by regulating your citizens isnt the way to go about it.
and the reality is that the percentage of people that genuinely cant get vaccinated is very small. deliberately handicapping your countrys productivity and the livelihood of the majority of your population is just not a good solution at all. ideally a goverment is making decisions with enough foresight to understand that things like the economy and quality of life are actually important, and that their decisions impact millions of people with long lasting repercussions. educate your citizens so they can be responsible, good people. do what you can to provide the best services and opportunities for your citizens to make the most of. create a society that highly rewards people that make consecutively good decisions in life. thats the governments role, not this endless lockdown bullshit. lockdowns were fine when there was no vaccine available and citizens had literally no effective way of protecting themselves. were past that now
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Should we also not regulate people to drive responsibly?
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On August 01 2021 21:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Should we also not regulate people to drive responsibly?
how is asking people to stick to a speed limit comparable to cutting off 20 million people from the rest of the world for 2 years?
or how is asking people to not drink and drive comparable to demanding that people close their businesses for months with peanuts as government support?
got any more stupid questions?
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EPT
