|
Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On June 20 2021 09:48 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 07:13 maybenexttime wrote:On June 20 2021 06:15 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 02:30 maybenexttime wrote:On June 19 2021 22:25 Erasme wrote: Your personal liberty stops when mine starts. It's an easy way to resolve that moral issue. It really is not. You could argue either way from this principle. It actually is really easy to resolve this moral issue. The statistics that JimmiC offered shows that if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. It poses some super small threat but certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. First of all, there are people who cannot be vaccinated for objective reasons or for whom vaccines are ineffective. Secondly, if enough people remain unvaccinated, this poses the risk of further outbreaks, leading to either more lockdowns or collapse of the healthcare system a la Bergamo, New York or India. Those affect vaccinated people as well. Both valid points that I considered before I made my argument. Surely some X number of lives can be saved of people that can't take the vaccine and have no choice in the matter. I just think X is not a big enough number to tilt the scales in this case. Just like we could save some X number of lives every flu season yet we do absolutely nothing. For your 2nd point I think you would have to show some evidence that a healthcare system collapse is possible without government mandated interventions. Texas has been fully reopened for a bit now and they still haven't descended into chaos. Its barely been a month since since the major population centers in Texas lifted their mandates, but it is still recommended for many and many businesses have kept the rules. I feel like a lot of people are unaware that while the governor was saying a bunch of things the cities with vast majority of the people were doing something else.
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-sets-date-to-end-city-building-mask-mandate/2637053/
https://austintexas.gov/news/masking-no-longer-mandated-recommended-austin-travis-county
|
On June 20 2021 09:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 08:56 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 06:48 Belisarius wrote:...do... do you even read what you are writing? if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here. Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines. Idk dude good luck out there. You are taking my words out of context. We are discussing the moral issue of which is a more important personal liberty to preserve - the right to refuse vaccines/masks/social distance protocols or the personal liberty to not be killed by someone that chooses not to vaccinate/mask/social distance. My argument is that, based on JimmiC's numbers, if you are vaccinated COVID poses very little threat to you and if COVID poses very little threat to you then you shouldn't have the right to compel people to do anything to protect your personal liberty of not being infected. There's nothing contradictory or illogical there, my friend. It poses a threat to me as I am a member of society and I pay taxes and so on. I don't want additional costs to the system that are not needed, and not just the health care but all the other costs that are involved when people get very sick. Often they have dependents that require care. You not wearing a seatbelt does not pose any threat to me and yet the rule is there because it is a simple way to reduce death and injury which reduces the cost to the entire system and there are 1000's of other examples. It is strange that people make it out like this is somehow different. If people choose to not do it the lose some of the benefits of collective societies which is fair because they are creating extra burden.
I saw a video the other day of a Canadian man named Tim Stephens being arrested in front of his family for an unlawful public gathering that was outdoors. It really makes me wonder how the Canadian police treat people that don't wear seatbelts if that is no different.
|
On June 20 2021 06:30 BlackJack wrote: One of the more obvious ways you can tell that many people obsessed with COVID care more about virtue signaling than about the science of protecting people is to go out in public and see what % of masks are cloth masks. Almost all of my personal friends and the vast majority of strangers I see in public wear cloth masks. I don't wear cloth masks. I exclusively wear those baby-blue hospital masks. The reason is that research shows they are more effective at stopping respiratory particles. Maybe at the start of the pandemic they were hard to come by but now they are easily available. If people really cared about protecting people everyone would be wearing these masks but instead only a small % of people do. You should come to Germany; especially Bavaria! Because you probably will be thrown out of many places with your meager hospital mask! FFP2 masks are mandatory at most places! And: no, we are not doing especially better than other parts...
|
On June 20 2021 15:13 Geisterkarle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 06:30 BlackJack wrote: One of the more obvious ways you can tell that many people obsessed with COVID care more about virtue signaling than about the science of protecting people is to go out in public and see what % of masks are cloth masks. Almost all of my personal friends and the vast majority of strangers I see in public wear cloth masks. I don't wear cloth masks. I exclusively wear those baby-blue hospital masks. The reason is that research shows they are more effective at stopping respiratory particles. Maybe at the start of the pandemic they were hard to come by but now they are easily available. If people really cared about protecting people everyone would be wearing these masks but instead only a small % of people do. You should come to Germany; especially Bavaria! Because you probably will be thrown out of many places with your meager hospital mask! FFP2 masks are mandatory at most places! And: no, we are not doing especially better than other parts...
Denmark just scrapped mask mandates for everything except public transport, but they were never mandatory outside.
Spain will FINALLY dropp the mask mandate outdoors next weekend. If someone can find a study confirming that a general mask mandate for outdoors is effective, I will be very curious to see it! Afaik, random transmission outside is extremely rare, so masks are not worth bothering with, 1m of distance does the trick, and briefly passing someone else at a closer distance is also not dangerous.
Curiously, a whole range of strange mask-wearing social norms have been formed where I live, and most of them have nothing to do with proper use. They include: -When having a drink, take your mask on and off between each sip, without washing your hands ofc. When food is on the table, remove the mask. Strangely, shared plates and snacks are acceptable, so the masks usually make no difference what so ever in this setting.
-When walking outside, a lot of people either hold the mask in place with their hands or open open one strap. It probably make them feel less guilty for giving their face a little air.
-Most faces you see on the street are by people who are smoking, which is the only thing you can legally do without a mask outside... for health reasons.
I think all of this is absolutely absurd, but after having been bombarded with the moral importance of face masks, all critical thinking seems to have disappeared, even among doctors.
|
On June 20 2021 18:34 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 15:13 Geisterkarle wrote:On June 20 2021 06:30 BlackJack wrote: One of the more obvious ways you can tell that many people obsessed with COVID care more about virtue signaling than about the science of protecting people is to go out in public and see what % of masks are cloth masks. Almost all of my personal friends and the vast majority of strangers I see in public wear cloth masks. I don't wear cloth masks. I exclusively wear those baby-blue hospital masks. The reason is that research shows they are more effective at stopping respiratory particles. Maybe at the start of the pandemic they were hard to come by but now they are easily available. If people really cared about protecting people everyone would be wearing these masks but instead only a small % of people do. You should come to Germany; especially Bavaria! Because you probably will be thrown out of many places with your meager hospital mask! FFP2 masks are mandatory at most places! And: no, we are not doing especially better than other parts... Denmark just scrapped mask mandates for everything except public transport, but they were never mandatory outside. Spain will FINALLY dropp the mask mandate outdoors next weekend. If someone can find a study confirming that a general mask mandate for outdoors is effective, I will be very curious to see it! Afaik, random transmission outside is extremely rare, so masks are not worth bothering with, 1m of distance does the trick, and briefly passing someone else at a closer distance is also not dangerous. Curiously, a whole range of strange mask-wearing social norms have been formed where I live, and most of them have nothing to do with proper use. They include: -When having a drink, take your mask on and off between each sip, without washing your hands ofc. When food is on the table, remove the mask. Strangely, shared plates and snacks are acceptable, so the masks usually make no difference what so ever in this setting. -When walking outside, a lot of people either hold the mask in place with their hands or open open one strap. It probably make them feel less guilty for giving their face a little air. -Most faces you see on the street are by people who are smoking, which is the only thing you can legally do without a mask outside... for health reasons. I think all of this is absolutely absurd, but after having been bombarded with the moral importance of face masks, all critical thinking seems to have disappeared, even among doctors.
I am intrigued by how you think the critical thinking has disappeared - I think you might be overestimating the effect of correctly worn masks compared to incorrectly worn masks.
Fact is, masks in themselves never served much function in the general public. They served as a reminder for people to distance which was from where we saw the actual protection when utilising I and II(R) masks. FFP3 masks obviously offered protection, but few to none wear those in public.
|
On June 20 2021 10:48 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On June 20 2021 08:56 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 06:48 Belisarius wrote:...do... do you even read what you are writing? if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here. Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines. Idk dude good luck out there. You are taking my words out of context. We are discussing the moral issue of which is a more important personal liberty to preserve - the right to refuse vaccines/masks/social distance protocols or the personal liberty to not be killed by someone that chooses not to vaccinate/mask/social distance. My argument is that, based on JimmiC's numbers, if you are vaccinated COVID poses very little threat to you and if COVID poses very little threat to you then you shouldn't have the right to compel people to do anything to protect your personal liberty of not being infected. There's nothing contradictory or illogical there, my friend. It poses a threat to me as I am a member of society and I pay taxes and so on. I don't want additional costs to the system that are not needed, and not just the health care but all the other costs that are involved when people get very sick. Often they have dependents that require care. You not wearing a seatbelt does not pose any threat to me and yet the rule is there because it is a simple way to reduce death and injury which reduces the cost to the entire system and there are 1000's of other examples. It is strange that people make it out like this is somehow different. If people choose to not do it the lose some of the benefits of collective societies which is fair because they are creating extra burden. I saw a video the other day of a Canadian man named Tim Stephens being arrested in front of his family for an unlawful public gathering that was outdoors. It really makes me wonder how the Canadian police treat people that don't wear seatbelts if that is no different. If some one was publicly and purposefully continuing to break that law to virtue signal to a bunch of people, in an attempt to encourage them to also not wear them, it would go down the same way.
The thing is when you get sensationalized news from a source that is trying to sell a narrative and not give the news story. You end up with their narrative instead of the truth.
+ Show Spoiler +for those who don't know stephens is a Calgary pastor who continued to break public heath orders at the peaks of the waves by having large indoor gatherings without spacing and masking encouraging others and causing out breaks. Eventually after asking, fines, fencing around his church and so on did not work he was arrested. It was a pretty non story here for most since he was just being a pain for the attention. Local news even stopped giving it much coverage.
Also, even those that followed him have mostly turned away since his schtickwas that this was all a hoax to take away freedom and the gov will never give it back. Now that numbers are way down necause of vaccination and the government is rapidly returning to normal his Message has been proven as foolish as the vast majoritythought it was to begin with. All he did was create more measures, more sick people for his .05 minutes of infamy. And apparently a little fame for the shock jock right in the states lol.
|
On June 20 2021 23:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 10:48 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On June 20 2021 08:56 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 06:48 Belisarius wrote:...do... do you even read what you are writing? if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here. Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines. Idk dude good luck out there. You are taking my words out of context. We are discussing the moral issue of which is a more important personal liberty to preserve - the right to refuse vaccines/masks/social distance protocols or the personal liberty to not be killed by someone that chooses not to vaccinate/mask/social distance. My argument is that, based on JimmiC's numbers, if you are vaccinated COVID poses very little threat to you and if COVID poses very little threat to you then you shouldn't have the right to compel people to do anything to protect your personal liberty of not being infected. There's nothing contradictory or illogical there, my friend. It poses a threat to me as I am a member of society and I pay taxes and so on. I don't want additional costs to the system that are not needed, and not just the health care but all the other costs that are involved when people get very sick. Often they have dependents that require care. You not wearing a seatbelt does not pose any threat to me and yet the rule is there because it is a simple way to reduce death and injury which reduces the cost to the entire system and there are 1000's of other examples. It is strange that people make it out like this is somehow different. If people choose to not do it the lose some of the benefits of collective societies which is fair because they are creating extra burden. I saw a video the other day of a Canadian man named Tim Stephens being arrested in front of his family for an unlawful public gathering that was outdoors. It really makes me wonder how the Canadian police treat people that don't wear seatbelts if that is no different. If some one was publicly and purposefully continuing to break that law to virtue signal to a bunch of people, in an attempt to encourage them to also not wear them, it would go down the same way. The thing is when you get sensationalized news from a source that is trying to sell a narrative and not give the news story. You end up with their narrative instead of the truth. + Show Spoiler +for those who don't know stephens is a Calgary pastor who continued to break public heath orders at the peaks of the waves by having large indoor gatherings without spacing and masking encouraging others and causing out breaks. Eventually after asking, fines, fencing around his church and so on did not work he was arrested. It was a pretty non story here for most since he was just being a pain for the attention. Local news even stopped giving it much coverage.
Also, even those that followed him have mostly turned away since his schtickwas that this was all a hoax to take away freedom and the gov will never give it back. Now that numbers are way down necause of vaccination and the government is rapidly returning to normal his Message has been proven as foolish as the vast majoritythought it was to begin with. All he did was create more measures, more sick people for his .05 minutes of infamy. And apparently a little fame for the shock jock right in the states lol. They tried to build a fence around his church? That’s awesome lol. This guy is being really annoying, fuck it let’s build a wall.
|
On June 21 2021 00:44 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 23:00 JimmiC wrote:On June 20 2021 10:48 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On June 20 2021 08:56 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 06:48 Belisarius wrote:...do... do you even read what you are writing? if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here. Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines. Idk dude good luck out there. You are taking my words out of context. We are discussing the moral issue of which is a more important personal liberty to preserve - the right to refuse vaccines/masks/social distance protocols or the personal liberty to not be killed by someone that chooses not to vaccinate/mask/social distance. My argument is that, based on JimmiC's numbers, if you are vaccinated COVID poses very little threat to you and if COVID poses very little threat to you then you shouldn't have the right to compel people to do anything to protect your personal liberty of not being infected. There's nothing contradictory or illogical there, my friend. It poses a threat to me as I am a member of society and I pay taxes and so on. I don't want additional costs to the system that are not needed, and not just the health care but all the other costs that are involved when people get very sick. Often they have dependents that require care. You not wearing a seatbelt does not pose any threat to me and yet the rule is there because it is a simple way to reduce death and injury which reduces the cost to the entire system and there are 1000's of other examples. It is strange that people make it out like this is somehow different. If people choose to not do it the lose some of the benefits of collective societies which is fair because they are creating extra burden. I saw a video the other day of a Canadian man named Tim Stephens being arrested in front of his family for an unlawful public gathering that was outdoors. It really makes me wonder how the Canadian police treat people that don't wear seatbelts if that is no different. If some one was publicly and purposefully continuing to break that law to virtue signal to a bunch of people, in an attempt to encourage them to also not wear them, it would go down the same way. The thing is when you get sensationalized news from a source that is trying to sell a narrative and not give the news story. You end up with their narrative instead of the truth. + Show Spoiler +for those who don't know stephens is a Calgary pastor who continued to break public heath orders at the peaks of the waves by having large indoor gatherings without spacing and masking encouraging others and causing out breaks. Eventually after asking, fines, fencing around his church and so on did not work he was arrested. It was a pretty non story here for most since he was just being a pain for the attention. Local news even stopped giving it much coverage.
Also, even those that followed him have mostly turned away since his schtickwas that this was all a hoax to take away freedom and the gov will never give it back. Now that numbers are way down necause of vaccination and the government is rapidly returning to normal his Message has been proven as foolish as the vast majoritythought it was to begin with. All he did was create more measures, more sick people for his .05 minutes of infamy. And apparently a little fame for the shock jock right in the states lol. They tried to build a fence around his church? That’s awesome lol. This guy is being really annoying, fuck it let’s build a wall. Yes it went to silly town. I think they thought if they just made it difficult enough he would calm down but he just kept going further until eventually they arrested him. But last I heard they dropped the charges and just left all his fines. The goal was always just to have him stop spreading covid.
|
On June 20 2021 19:11 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 18:34 Slydie wrote:On June 20 2021 15:13 Geisterkarle wrote:On June 20 2021 06:30 BlackJack wrote: One of the more obvious ways you can tell that many people obsessed with COVID care more about virtue signaling than about the science of protecting people is to go out in public and see what % of masks are cloth masks. Almost all of my personal friends and the vast majority of strangers I see in public wear cloth masks. I don't wear cloth masks. I exclusively wear those baby-blue hospital masks. The reason is that research shows they are more effective at stopping respiratory particles. Maybe at the start of the pandemic they were hard to come by but now they are easily available. If people really cared about protecting people everyone would be wearing these masks but instead only a small % of people do. You should come to Germany; especially Bavaria! Because you probably will be thrown out of many places with your meager hospital mask! FFP2 masks are mandatory at most places! And: no, we are not doing especially better than other parts... Denmark just scrapped mask mandates for everything except public transport, but they were never mandatory outside. Spain will FINALLY dropp the mask mandate outdoors next weekend. If someone can find a study confirming that a general mask mandate for outdoors is effective, I will be very curious to see it! Afaik, random transmission outside is extremely rare, so masks are not worth bothering with, 1m of distance does the trick, and briefly passing someone else at a closer distance is also not dangerous. Curiously, a whole range of strange mask-wearing social norms have been formed where I live, and most of them have nothing to do with proper use. They include: -When having a drink, take your mask on and off between each sip, without washing your hands ofc. When food is on the table, remove the mask. Strangely, shared plates and snacks are acceptable, so the masks usually make no difference what so ever in this setting. -When walking outside, a lot of people either hold the mask in place with their hands or open open one strap. It probably make them feel less guilty for giving their face a little air. -Most faces you see on the street are by people who are smoking, which is the only thing you can legally do without a mask outside... for health reasons. I think all of this is absolutely absurd, but after having been bombarded with the moral importance of face masks, all critical thinking seems to have disappeared, even among doctors. I am intrigued by how you think the critical thinking has disappeared - I think you might be overestimating the effect of correctly worn masks compared to incorrectly worn masks. Fact is, masks in themselves never served much function in the general public. They served as a reminder for people to distance which was from where we saw the actual protection when utilising I and II(R) masks. FFP3 masks obviously offered protection, but few to none wear those in public.
What I mean is that the social norms and plain superstition dominate how people use and think about masks around here. If I mention how countries which never introduced mask mandates outside dealt very well with the pandemic, people either don't answer or rush to some far fetched explaination. It feels like debating religion.
I have to admit, the social norms are extremely powerful! I gave up even trying to use them correctly myself a long time ago, even having studied the subject from various sources.
|
The only reason so many governments put in mask mandates was because they were trying to avoid more severe measures that impacted the economy, social development and so on. They were also a visual signal about who was following the rules and who was not. Had people been following the early rules of social distancing and only wearing masks when you had symptoms or were in places that it was impossible they would not have.
Masks were/are mildly annoying, but that is the worst of it. I have no idea why so many people were worked up about it. This is why the NZ keep it to 0 strategy when you just go super hard whenever there is a case is the only one that worked because any measures at best had like 70% participation. And with things like masks many people were actively trying to not get introuble but make them ineffective (wearing them not covering mouth nose or both). Which was especially strange because that was at least as uncomfortable and 0 benefit.
The argument about how effective masks are in the real world will never be answered because A you could never compare two like areas and B there is too many people who know better and would not give it a shot so it creates the self fulfilling prophecy. Unless I missed it I never read anyone ever suggest that masks would stop spread only minorly reduce it but for some reason the bar was set for some at being 100% effective.
Then it became a political thing and whos right thing and people fought for the sake of fighting.
|
Went to my first major public (outdoorsish) event with mixed rules and it was a bit of a disaster from a "protocol" perspective.
Place seemed severely understaffed, so I can't blame the workers for it, but if it is reflective what to expect going forward probably going to be some notable increases before the year is done.
At the start of this it was about not overwhelming the hospitals and bodies piling up in the streets, that part seems over in the US and now it's more of a "how many infections/deaths is tolerable" calculation.
I could see how the places that have more functional protocols for vaxed vs unvaxed people effectively pressures people to get vaccinated though, so the US can probably get at least a little closer to herd immunity vaccination requirement estimates yet.
Probably going to avoid any indoor large gatherings for the year personally (regardless of the "rules") but despite the bad protocol, outdoors I didn't feel like I was pressing my luck so probably do those while the weather holds.
|
On June 21 2021 03:28 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 19:11 Ghostcom wrote:On June 20 2021 18:34 Slydie wrote:On June 20 2021 15:13 Geisterkarle wrote:On June 20 2021 06:30 BlackJack wrote: One of the more obvious ways you can tell that many people obsessed with COVID care more about virtue signaling than about the science of protecting people is to go out in public and see what % of masks are cloth masks. Almost all of my personal friends and the vast majority of strangers I see in public wear cloth masks. I don't wear cloth masks. I exclusively wear those baby-blue hospital masks. The reason is that research shows they are more effective at stopping respiratory particles. Maybe at the start of the pandemic they were hard to come by but now they are easily available. If people really cared about protecting people everyone would be wearing these masks but instead only a small % of people do. You should come to Germany; especially Bavaria! Because you probably will be thrown out of many places with your meager hospital mask! FFP2 masks are mandatory at most places! And: no, we are not doing especially better than other parts... Denmark just scrapped mask mandates for everything except public transport, but they were never mandatory outside. Spain will FINALLY dropp the mask mandate outdoors next weekend. If someone can find a study confirming that a general mask mandate for outdoors is effective, I will be very curious to see it! Afaik, random transmission outside is extremely rare, so masks are not worth bothering with, 1m of distance does the trick, and briefly passing someone else at a closer distance is also not dangerous. Curiously, a whole range of strange mask-wearing social norms have been formed where I live, and most of them have nothing to do with proper use. They include: -When having a drink, take your mask on and off between each sip, without washing your hands ofc. When food is on the table, remove the mask. Strangely, shared plates and snacks are acceptable, so the masks usually make no difference what so ever in this setting. -When walking outside, a lot of people either hold the mask in place with their hands or open open one strap. It probably make them feel less guilty for giving their face a little air. -Most faces you see on the street are by people who are smoking, which is the only thing you can legally do without a mask outside... for health reasons. I think all of this is absolutely absurd, but after having been bombarded with the moral importance of face masks, all critical thinking seems to have disappeared, even among doctors. I am intrigued by how you think the critical thinking has disappeared - I think you might be overestimating the effect of correctly worn masks compared to incorrectly worn masks. Fact is, masks in themselves never served much function in the general public. They served as a reminder for people to distance which was from where we saw the actual protection when utilising I and II(R) masks. FFP3 masks obviously offered protection, but few to none wear those in public. What I mean is that the social norms and plain superstition dominate how people use and think about masks around here. If I mention how countries which never introduced mask mandates outside dealt very well with the pandemic, people either don't answer or rush to some far fetched explaination. It feels like debating religion. I have to admit, the social norms are extremely powerful! I gave up even trying to use them correctly myself a long time ago, even having studied the subject from various sources.
Well yes, the issue is that it is nearly impossible to make any good studies on the subject so it will all come down to more or less qualified guesses in the end.
For example, I have worn FFP3 every single time I have intubated/extubated a covid-19 verified or suspected patient despite the guidelines from the Danish Department of Health which initially argued that FFP2 would be good enough due to particle size (droplet rather than airborne). FFP2 might have be good enough, I don't know, but I was not about to take any chances if at all avoidable. Luckily for me, my department was prioritised for PPE.
|
A few thoughts. Masks - good idea in public indoor environments as long as there's a medium-high risk of covid spread in the area. After the majority of the population has gotten vaccinated, and the covid prevalence drops to negligible levels though, only the highest risk (crowded mass-transit, healthcare) environments really need masks. When vaccination doesn't exist though, masks are a good tool to reduce the spread (Even if it's fairly minor, spreading to 5 people is better than spreading to 8 people).
Vaccines - My parents are getting their second shot on Wednesday, 7.5 weeks after their first shot. You get an increase of 3.5x at 12+ weeks vs 3 weeks, so waiting longer is reasonable, but at some point, you gotta think that 95% now is better than 97% later. Hopefully 7.5 weeks is enough for long term immunity, or at least a couple years with no booster required.
Japan - Took them a while, but the vaccination train is going pretty strong there now. Olympics might be okay if they prioritize all staff/districts near venues for vaccination.
Canada - Looks like Quebec/Maritimes > BC/Ont > Prairies as far as vaccine uptake goes. Most provinces have started levelling out fairly hard in first dose rates. Hopefully between lotteries, drop-in first dose or other measures to increase uptake, we can get to 70-75% first dose uptake as a country by the end of July (Which is when dose availability will start to shrink, as the majority of the population has gotten their second doses).
There's still a pretty big divide between urban vaccine uptake and rural vaccine uptake in BC. My neighbourhood has hit 80% of 12+ vaccinated, which is frankly amazing. Most neighbourhoods seem like they'll hit those numbers which will allow us to fully reopen comfortably. Rural areas are in the 50-70% range, which drags down the provincial average. In all honesty though, I don't care about those areas, as long as the urban areas are at a high vaccination level, we'll comfortably avoid covid waves.
|
|
Had second dose of Pfizer on friday. Didnt have any serious side effects, just as the first time. I am still very hopeful that this summer will be pretty normal considering the situation. Poland currently has ~37% of adults fully vaccinated + 20% after first dose.
|
We're moving to masks recommended on Thursday it seems for public spaces (although some places may keep the mandate). We're under 50 cases for the province (5m population, so 1 case/100k/day), and our public health officer says that as the balance of people vulnerable to the virus have had two doses, and enough time for the doses to take effect, and as cases have fallen dramatically, the chance of a mask being required to stop transmission has dropped to a low level. We're going to have guidance on where masks are recommended, but the path is towards "least restrictive measures" needed to keep spread, and risk low.
Locally, data shows our Rt is between 0.5-0.6 in BC, so we're in a good place to drop restrictions and keep people happy with the few remaining restrictions.
My second dose is some time after July 6th so I'll be good by mid-July. The end is in sight for me.
|
On June 29 2021 07:49 Lmui wrote: We're moving to masks recommended on Thursday it seems for public spaces (although some places may keep the mandate). We're under 50 cases for the province (5m population, so 1 case/100k/day), and our public health officer says that as the balance of people vulnerable to the virus have had two doses, and enough time for the doses to take effect, and as cases have fallen dramatically, the chance of a mask being required to stop transmission has dropped to a low level. We're going to have guidance on where masks are recommended, but the path is towards "least restrictive measures" needed to keep spread, and risk low.
Locally, data shows our Rt is between 0.5-0.6 in BC, so we're in a good place to drop restrictions and keep people happy with the few remaining restrictions.
My second dose is some time after July 6th so I'll be good by mid-July. The end is in sight for me.
Here in Spain, most people still wear masks outside even it is not obligatory anymore. Of the ones who don't, most have them available and visible. I think it is puzzling, as walking around outside should be considered a very safe activity, the danger of infection is mainly theoretical. I feel the social preasure, though, it is a bit like walking around naked!
I would love to see more smiles soon, but it makes a major difference for me to know people cover their faces because up they choose to and not because they are afraid of fines.
|
On June 29 2021 08:31 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2021 07:49 Lmui wrote: We're moving to masks recommended on Thursday it seems for public spaces (although some places may keep the mandate). We're under 50 cases for the province (5m population, so 1 case/100k/day), and our public health officer says that as the balance of people vulnerable to the virus have had two doses, and enough time for the doses to take effect, and as cases have fallen dramatically, the chance of a mask being required to stop transmission has dropped to a low level. We're going to have guidance on where masks are recommended, but the path is towards "least restrictive measures" needed to keep spread, and risk low.
Locally, data shows our Rt is between 0.5-0.6 in BC, so we're in a good place to drop restrictions and keep people happy with the few remaining restrictions.
My second dose is some time after July 6th so I'll be good by mid-July. The end is in sight for me. Here in Spain, most people still wear masks outside even it is not obligatory anymore. Of the ones who don't, most have them available and visible. I think it is puzzling, as walking around outside should be considered a very safe activity, the danger of infection is mainly theoretical. I feel the social preasure, though, it is a bit like walking around naked! I would love to see more smiles soon, but it makes a major difference for me to know people cover their faces because up they choose to and not because they are afraid of fines. I bumped into quite a lot of people wearing a mask only covering their mouth and not their nose. It doesn't make any sense. You don't have to wear a mask outside anymore. Either wear it properly if you feel it's still necessary, or don't wear it at all. But wearing a mask badly now that it's no longer required seems like a really dumb fashion statement or something?
|
On June 29 2021 15:01 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2021 08:31 Slydie wrote:On June 29 2021 07:49 Lmui wrote: We're moving to masks recommended on Thursday it seems for public spaces (although some places may keep the mandate). We're under 50 cases for the province (5m population, so 1 case/100k/day), and our public health officer says that as the balance of people vulnerable to the virus have had two doses, and enough time for the doses to take effect, and as cases have fallen dramatically, the chance of a mask being required to stop transmission has dropped to a low level. We're going to have guidance on where masks are recommended, but the path is towards "least restrictive measures" needed to keep spread, and risk low.
Locally, data shows our Rt is between 0.5-0.6 in BC, so we're in a good place to drop restrictions and keep people happy with the few remaining restrictions.
My second dose is some time after July 6th so I'll be good by mid-July. The end is in sight for me. Here in Spain, most people still wear masks outside even it is not obligatory anymore. Of the ones who don't, most have them available and visible. I think it is puzzling, as walking around outside should be considered a very safe activity, the danger of infection is mainly theoretical. I feel the social preasure, though, it is a bit like walking around naked! I would love to see more smiles soon, but it makes a major difference for me to know people cover their faces because up they choose to and not because they are afraid of fines. I bumped into quite a lot of people wearing a mask only covering their mouth and not their nose. It doesn't make any sense. You don't have to wear a mask outside anymore. Either wear it properly if you feel it's still necessary, or don't wear it at all. But wearing a mask badly now that it's no longer required seems like a really dumb fashion statement or something?
I think it is the problem of simplification. You can easily tell people to "wear a mask", and it is super easy thing to vigilate. Educating and creating social norms about correct use is much more complicated. In Spain, I even have a feeling they didn't even want people to be educated, but rather do as told without asking annoying questions and calling out bullshit.
|
Forced use of FFP2 masks by the general public was one of the most stupid things done because literally I dont know a single person who used them as they should have(max. 4-6? hours, change after use, change after getting wet, etc...)
Also I dont blame anyone who hasnt followed that because that would have been creating tons of waste which is prolly worse than covid could ever be
|
|
|
|