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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
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Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
On June 19 2021 20:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:99% of hospitalisations being unvaccinated sounds way too high, got any source for that or it’s just an anecdote? For comparison - Recent UK data for the delta strain is around 70% of admissions being unvaccinated, little under two thirds of visits requiring at least overnight stay being unvaccinated and a little over half of deaths being unvaccinated (small sample for deaths) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/11/delta-variant-is-linked-to-90-of-covid-cases-in-uk
99% seems to be right; at least, in certain parts of the world. Why do you think that's too high? A lot of people who are skeptical about the efficacy of the vaccines only think about the first line of defense - that you're maybe only 95% or 90% or 80% protected from getting coronavirus if you're vaccinated - but forget about the second line of defense: that even if you do get coronavirus, the vaccine will almost perfectly ensure that you don't get seriously ill / extreme side effects / die. Those two points, combined with the fact that being vaccinated additionally lowers the chance that a covid-positive person transmits it to someone else, make these vaccines incredibly helpful.
"“From January first to around mid-April, we’ve had around 4,300 admissions to the hospital with COVID. Of those patients, 99% were not fully vaccinated,” said Eduardo Mireles, MD, Director of the Medical Intensive Care Unit.
In addition to showing the majority of COVID-19 hospital admissions were in people who had not received a full vaccine series, another set of data looking at hospital employees shows a similar trend.
Researchers looked at nearly 2,000 hospital workers who had contracted COVID-19. They studied infections in the four months after the vaccine was offered. Results show 99.7% of infections in this group occurred among those who were unvaccinated." https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2021/05/12/most-covid-19-infections-and-hospitalizations-are-in-unvaccinated/
"Study: 99.75% of hospitalized COVID-19 patients weren't vaccinated
The Cleveland Clinic on Tuesday released a study showing that 99.75% of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between Jan. 1 and April 13 were not fully vaccinated, according to data provided to Axios." https://news.yahoo.com/cleveland-clinic-study-over-99-165631981.html
"In Minnesota, the HealthPartners system has seen a “precipitous decline” in COVID-19 hospitalizations, says Dr. Mark Sannes, an infectious disease physician and senior medical director for the system, which operates nine hospitals and more than 55 clinics. But now, nearly every admitted patient he does see is unvaccinated.
“Less than 1% of our hospitalized COVID patients are vaccinated," he said." https://currently.att.yahoo.com/att/cm/people-hospitalized-covid-19-now-100140919.html
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One thing I was thinking about for maybe here but I think a lot more likely up in the US is going to be a exclusion for covid on people's health insurance if they are not vaccinated. It is already something insurance companies do, sure you can sky dive, sure we will cover you, but if you die skydiving we won't pay out. It is going to make sense for insurance companies to do the same thing. If someone chooses not too then they should be covered for everything else but be their own dime for that since they are picking that risk. The only other option is everybody else pays more, but I don't think that sounds fair especially when the argument is about individual choice. Getting to make an individual choice is fine, but then everyone else should not pay extra for it just that person should.
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Your personal liberty stops when mine starts. It's an easy way to resolve that moral issue. Anyway, got vaccinated today, next shot is in 4weeks. hypu
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COVID only exists politically on media screens and proliferates by word of mouth (from a single political entity). So good luck with substantial comments that are bipartisan (freethinking).
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On June 19 2021 22:25 Erasme wrote: Your personal liberty stops when mine starts. It's an easy way to resolve that moral issue. It really is not. You could argue either way from this principle.
On June 20 2021 01:13 rel wrote: COVID only exists politically on media screens and proliferates by word of mouth (from a single political entity). So good luck with substantial comments that are bipartisan (freethinking). ???
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I would elaborate, but probably said too much already. The corpo-global liberals who moderate this site don't take too much to opposing criticism. Which is why you see much of the echo-chamber and the like-minded of the opposed get ousted quite vehemently.
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On June 20 2021 04:29 rel wrote: I would elaborate, but probably said too much already. The corpo-global liberals who moderate this site don't take too much to opposing criticism. Which is why you see much of the echo-chamber and the like-minded of the opposed get ousted quite vehemently.
Is this satire?
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I am the 180 degrees version of JimmiC.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 20 2021 02:30 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2021 22:25 Erasme wrote: Your personal liberty stops when mine starts. It's an easy way to resolve that moral issue. It really is not. You could argue either way from this principle.
It actually is really easy to resolve this moral issue. The statistics that JimmiC offered shows that if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. It poses some super small threat but certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc.
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One of the more obvious ways you can tell that many people obsessed with COVID care more about virtue signaling than about the science of protecting people is to go out in public and see what % of masks are cloth masks. Almost all of my personal friends and the vast majority of strangers I see in public wear cloth masks. I don't wear cloth masks. I exclusively wear those baby-blue hospital masks. The reason is that research shows they are more effective at stopping respiratory particles. Maybe at the start of the pandemic they were hard to come by but now they are easily available. If people really cared about protecting people everyone would be wearing these masks but instead only a small % of people do.
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When masks are mandatory it is virtue signaling not to wear them not the vice versa. The people want to stand out and show others what ever it is that they think it does, the rest of the people are a mix of doing it because they are supposed to and they think it helps.
The vaccine passports and all that totally make sense regardless of the success because not everyone is able to get vaccinated because of health reasons or age reasons. On top of that you don't want all of your own people who have chosen to be at risk (and who in most countries the government had to pay for) infected by travelrs from other places it way more then takes away the economic benefit of them traveling. It is bad enough my tax dollars are paying for something that can be easily prevented, the last thing I want is more coming in! And again, especially here I'm in the vast majority.
Life insurance companies are already trying to do the math on it but expect to pay more if you are not vaccinated or have covid related illnesses excluded. Health insurance will likely follow but will likely be excluded because of the risk and the extreme cost of caring for a hospitalized patient.
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...do... do you even read what you are writing?
if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X
Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here.
Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines.
Idk dude good luck out there.
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On June 19 2021 20:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:99% seems to be right; at least, in certain parts of the world. Why do you think that's too high? Because the data that I linked in my post from the UK shows it’s around 70% of those hospitalised are unvaccinated, not 99%.Some of that may be due to the Pfizer being more effective than AZ and the UK data being new variant but it’s a pretty big gap.
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On June 20 2021 06:15 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 02:30 maybenexttime wrote:On June 19 2021 22:25 Erasme wrote: Your personal liberty stops when mine starts. It's an easy way to resolve that moral issue. It really is not. You could argue either way from this principle. It actually is really easy to resolve this moral issue. The statistics that JimmiC offered shows that if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. It poses some super small threat but certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. First of all, there are people who cannot be vaccinated for objective reasons or for whom vaccines are ineffective. Secondly, if enough people remain unvaccinated, this poses the risk of further outbreaks, leading to either more lockdowns or collapse of the healthcare system a la Bergamo, New York or India. Those affect vaccinated people as well.
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On June 20 2021 07:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2021 20:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 19 2021 20:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:99% of hospitalisations being unvaccinated sounds way too high, got any source for that or it’s just an anecdote? For comparison - Recent UK data for the delta strain is around 70% of admissions being unvaccinated, little under two thirds of visits requiring at least overnight stay being unvaccinated and a little over half of deaths being unvaccinated (small sample for deaths) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/11/delta-variant-is-linked-to-90-of-covid-cases-in-uk 99% seems to be right; at least, in certain parts of the world. Why do you think that's too high? Because the data that I linked in my post from the UK shows it’s around 70% of those hospitalised are unvaccinated, not 99%.Some of that may be due to the Pfizer being more effective than AZ and the UK data being new variant but it’s a pretty big gap. It is the Delta, it is also that the stats DPB and I showed were 2 doses where as what you had included 1 and 2 doses. And then the other factor would be that the UK used mainly AZ which has been shown to be not as effective against the Delta as the others (though there is not as much data with the others so maybe they won't be as great either). That being said the vaccinated people, especially fully still do much better.
This is one of the big reasons countries that are vaccinated and under control need to worry about those that are not, there is no guarantee that current vaccines will be effective against future mutations and the less total transmissions less variants. We are too connected to not look outside our own borders these days.
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On June 20 2021 07:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2021 20:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 19 2021 20:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:99% of hospitalisations being unvaccinated sounds way too high, got any source for that or it’s just an anecdote? For comparison - Recent UK data for the delta strain is around 70% of admissions being unvaccinated, little under two thirds of visits requiring at least overnight stay being unvaccinated and a little over half of deaths being unvaccinated (small sample for deaths) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/11/delta-variant-is-linked-to-90-of-covid-cases-in-uk 99% seems to be right; at least, in certain parts of the world. Why do you think that's too high? Because the data that I linked in my post from the UK shows it’s around 70% of those hospitalised are unvaccinated, not 99%.Some of that may be due to the Pfizer being more effective than AZ and the UK data being new variant but it’s a pretty big gap. You two are comparing data for all of covid vs data for the one variant (the 70% number)
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On June 20 2021 06:48 Belisarius wrote:...do... do you even read what you are writing? Show nested quote +certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here. Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines. Idk dude good luck out there.
You are taking my words out of context. We are discussing the moral issue of which is a more important personal liberty to preserve - the right to refuse vaccines/masks/social distance protocols or the personal liberty to not be killed by someone that chooses not to vaccinate/mask/social distance.
My argument is that, based on JimmiC's numbers, if you are vaccinated COVID poses very little threat to you and if COVID poses very little threat to you then you shouldn't have the right to compel people to do anything to protect your personal liberty of not being infected.
There's nothing contradictory or illogical there, my friend.
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On June 20 2021 08:56 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 06:48 Belisarius wrote:...do... do you even read what you are writing? if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. You are literally saying: If X, then Y is safe Therefore Y is safe Therefore not X Like, your third grade teacher would fail you on your logic here. Also, the only thing in that list that is actually being proposed is the vaccine passport. Mask mandates are being lifted as coverage rises, and very few western countries can seriously consider mandatory vaccines. Idk dude good luck out there. You are taking my words out of context. We are discussing the moral issue of which is a more important personal liberty to preserve - the right to refuse vaccines/masks/social distance protocols or the personal liberty to not be killed by someone that chooses not to vaccinate/mask/social distance. My argument is that, based on JimmiC's numbers, if you are vaccinated COVID poses very little threat to you and if COVID poses very little threat to you then you shouldn't have the right to compel people to do anything to protect your personal liberty of not being infected. There's nothing contradictory or illogical there, my friend. It poses a threat to me as I am a member of society and I pay taxes and so on. I don't want additional costs to the system that are not needed, and not just the health care but all the other costs that are involved when people get very sick. Often they have dependents that require care. You not wearing a seatbelt does not pose any threat to me and yet the rule is there because it is a simple way to reduce death and injury which reduces the cost to the entire system and there are 1000's of other examples. It is strange that people make it out like this is somehow different.
If people choose to not do it the lose some of the benefits of collective societies which is fair because they are creating extra burden.
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On June 20 2021 07:13 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2021 06:15 BlackJack wrote:On June 20 2021 02:30 maybenexttime wrote:On June 19 2021 22:25 Erasme wrote: Your personal liberty stops when mine starts. It's an easy way to resolve that moral issue. It really is not. You could argue either way from this principle. It actually is really easy to resolve this moral issue. The statistics that JimmiC offered shows that if you're a vaccinated adult COVID poses virtually no threat to you. It poses some super small threat but certainly not enough to support mandatory vaccines, vaccine passports, mask mandates, etc. First of all, there are people who cannot be vaccinated for objective reasons or for whom vaccines are ineffective. Secondly, if enough people remain unvaccinated, this poses the risk of further outbreaks, leading to either more lockdowns or collapse of the healthcare system a la Bergamo, New York or India. Those affect vaccinated people as well.
Both valid points that I considered before I made my argument. Surely some X number of lives can be saved of people that can't take the vaccine and have no choice in the matter. I just think X is not a big enough number to tilt the scales in this case. Just like we could save some X number of lives every flu season yet we do absolutely nothing.
For your 2nd point I think you would have to show some evidence that a healthcare system collapse is possible without government mandated interventions. Texas has been fully reopened for a bit now and they still haven't descended into chaos.
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