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On June 16 2021 05:32 naughtDE wrote:
This is just a weird thought from Germany. Vaccines here are now available to anybody that wants to be vaccinated and protect themselves. The government also invests into apps/software to track the vaccination status of every citizen and makes laws to reward compliance. Instead of giving people the choice of putting their own life at risk for freedom, it feels like we are given the choice to either give up our bodily autonomy or to become second class citizens.
It is a case of allowing individuals to make bad choices versus what needs to happen for other people to not die. Vaccination has always been about reaching a large enough amount of people to allow others it cannot reach to live. If you think your personal freedom regarding something as simple as a vaccination is more important than the people that will die if a large % has that same right, then I personally think you deserve being treated as a second class citizen.
The most basic function of a government is protecting its citizens. In this case it is a comparison of minor inconvenience vs others dying. Any government that is on the side of letting others die would fail in a democracy.
A comparison is a drivers license. You lose it if you endanger others.
On a personal note. They finally opened up for my age group here. Worked fine, expected more pain from the needle. Was just a small sting, much less than a blood test or similar.
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On June 16 2021 09:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2021 05:32 naughtDE wrote:
This is just a weird thought from Germany. Vaccines here are now available to anybody that wants to be vaccinated and protect themselves. The government also invests into apps/software to track the vaccination status of every citizen and makes laws to reward compliance. Instead of giving people the choice of putting their own life at risk for freedom, it feels like we are given the choice to either give up our bodily autonomy or to become second class citizens. If you are unwilling to get your drivers license is the government treating you like a second class citizen or are they protecting the masses by making sure your competitent? Rights do not come without responsibility it a society, you can choose to avoid the responsibility but then you lose the right. If it didn't work that way no one would work together for any thing. Instead we've realized if we do stuff together, some we don't like, overall we are all better off. You have the choice to not get a vaccine for any reason you want. But the rest of people have the right to stay away from people who made that choice , and businesses know that there customers will only choose them if they feel safe so they can also choose. And no thus is not discrimination, it's no shoes no shirt no service. Or that you have to wear a swimsuit at the pool. It is strange to me how people don't get upset by all the current rules they follow but do about new ones. And then last you should be extatitic that they make laws to reward the behavior they want instead of laws to punish those who did the behavior they don't want. They do not reward you for not littering, they fine you if they catch you. Is reward not better for the person doing the preferred behavior and the one not doing it? It is a lot harder to manage and more upfront cost then punishing so most of the time governments don't do, or not often, positive reinforcement.
You are really an awful person and you don’t even realize it which is alarming and disturbing if you actually believe all this. If you’re vaccinated fully, what do you have to worry about non-vaccinated people for? You should be protected, no? What’s your concern with others who would rather opt out? But instead you want to push for people to be segregated in to a 2nd class, where they can’t shop at certain stores because they aren’t vaccinated? So I suppose if you had it your way, you’d deny anyone their human rights unless they are vaccinated? Sure sounds that way
I’m not responding to anything I’d just like to point out of some of the lunacy that is posted here, sorry tl mods in advance
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There's a sizable portion of the population that cannot be vaccinated (under 12) and also for whom vaccines are less effective. A coworker of mine has MS, and is considered immunocompromised. He has gotten both doses, but there's still a fair chance that covid will hit him very hard, if he gets infected. Locally, I prefer if everyone I interact with is vaccinated, and that is going to be true for both my office (at least for my team) and my close/extended friends circle (which is already true). In general, I disagree with vaccine passports for domestic events. If you don't get vaccinated and you're eligible, you're a societal leech in my eyes, but there's tons of those people anyways. It doesn't affect me directly because there's not enough of them.
For anything international though, vaccine passports should be the norm. If countries choose to allow countries of origin that don't have vaccine passports due to low population covid rates, that's fine, but that should be the exception. If a country decides you don't get in because you refuse to get a covid vaccine, I'm going to fully support them.
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what a shit framing for the argument:
- you didn't get the vaccine to make others safer, you did it to save yourself; it is very clear from your posts that you were scared shitless 'cause covid is coming to get you.
- forbidding a part of the population from doing something is punishing.
EUs' covid certificates allow both vaccinated and people with past infections with covid, free passage(yes, vaccinated people are not better than people who were infected). between them, i say were fine.
the most stupid thing i find about the snowflakey attitude of vaccinated people, is that they don't even know for sure that they have immunity. the 5% to 40% chance for the vaccine to fail/not provide immunity, is a huge gap for having a one size fit all fucking cozy class of people and then giving all of them the same social 'rights'.
it is clear that they are rewarded for compliance and nothing else. it is like you train a dog: he does something you say it's good, then you give it a bone.
i know a good amount of vaccinated people that are against covid certificates which i find it is the right position to have.
Edit: also, 7 of the 11 vaccinated people at the firm i work for, already had a covid infection; that to me says a lot about the person seeking the vaccine; from those, there are 2 that are trying to get vaccinated with 3 vaccines, you know, just to be saferer.
it is stupid. shit needs to be called out.
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On June 16 2021 09:51 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2021 05:32 naughtDE wrote:
This is just a weird thought from Germany. Vaccines here are now available to anybody that wants to be vaccinated and protect themselves. The government also invests into apps/software to track the vaccination status of every citizen and makes laws to reward compliance. Instead of giving people the choice of putting their own life at risk for freedom, it feels like we are given the choice to either give up our bodily autonomy or to become second class citizens. If you are unwilling to get your drivers license is the government treating you like a second class citizen or are they protecting the masses by making sure your competitent? Rights do not come without responsibility it a society, you can choose to avoid the responsibility but then you lose the right. If it didn't work that way no one would work together for any thing. Instead we've realized if we do stuff together, some we don't like, overall we are all better off. You have the choice to not get a vaccine for any reason you want. But the rest of people have the right to stay away from people who made that choice , and businesses know that there customers will only choose them if they feel safe so they can also choose. And no thus is not discrimination, it's no shoes no shirt no service. Or that you have to wear a swimsuit at the pool. It is strange to me how people don't get upset by all the current rules they follow but do about new ones. And then last you should be extatitic that they make laws to reward the behavior they want instead of laws to punish those who did the behavior they don't want. They do not reward you for not littering, they fine you if they catch you. Is reward not better for the person doing the preferred behavior and the one not doing it? It is a lot harder to manage and more upfront cost then punishing so most of the time governments don't do, or not often, positive reinforcement.
I'd like to correct some information in this discussion. As far as i know, proof of a (recent) negative test is still supposed to be equal to vaccination with regards to reduced restrictions. So no one gets forced to vaccinate, you just need to constantly do corona tests and proof that you did if you didn't.
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On June 16 2021 10:24 castleeMg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2021 09:51 JimmiC wrote:On June 16 2021 05:32 naughtDE wrote:
This is just a weird thought from Germany. Vaccines here are now available to anybody that wants to be vaccinated and protect themselves. The government also invests into apps/software to track the vaccination status of every citizen and makes laws to reward compliance. Instead of giving people the choice of putting their own life at risk for freedom, it feels like we are given the choice to either give up our bodily autonomy or to become second class citizens. If you are unwilling to get your drivers license is the government treating you like a second class citizen or are they protecting the masses by making sure your competitent? Rights do not come without responsibility it a society, you can choose to avoid the responsibility but then you lose the right. If it didn't work that way no one would work together for any thing. Instead we've realized if we do stuff together, some we don't like, overall we are all better off. You have the choice to not get a vaccine for any reason you want. But the rest of people have the right to stay away from people who made that choice , and businesses know that there customers will only choose them if they feel safe so they can also choose. And no thus is not discrimination, it's no shoes no shirt no service. Or that you have to wear a swimsuit at the pool. It is strange to me how people don't get upset by all the current rules they follow but do about new ones. And then last you should be extatitic that they make laws to reward the behavior they want instead of laws to punish those who did the behavior they don't want. They do not reward you for not littering, they fine you if they catch you. Is reward not better for the person doing the preferred behavior and the one not doing it? It is a lot harder to manage and more upfront cost then punishing so most of the time governments don't do, or not often, positive reinforcement. You are really an awful person and you don’t even realize it which is alarming and disturbing if you actually believe all this. If you’re vaccinated fully, what do you have to worry about non-vaccinated people for? You should be protected, no? What’s your concern with others who would rather opt out? But instead you want to push for people to be segregated in to a 2nd class, where they can’t shop at certain stores because they aren’t vaccinated? So I suppose if you had it your way, you’d deny anyone their human rights unless they are vaccinated? Sure sounds that way I’m not responding to anything I’d just like to point out of some of the lunacy that is posted here, sorry tl mods in advance
Firstly, the vaccine isn't 100% effective. It is mostly effective and in healthy people is almost certain to stop Covid from becoming serious, but its health benefits are amplified if at a societal level you can build up herd immunity. That is very important, because the more people Covid can infect, the more likely a mutation that the vaccines are ineffective against can develop.
So even if people get the vaccine for selfish reasons, them getting it is a greater good for the community as well! So once the vaccine is readily available for everyone, it makes sense to reward behaviour that is good. Just like you get rewarded for learning how to drive safely (you get a driver's license), even though there are no doubt people who think they should be allowed to drive without that silly bureaucracy. Or you get punished for behaviour that harms society (like selling heroin to 5-year-olds) despite there being free market nuts who think the market should be entirely unrestricted.
Most of your post is hyperbolic drivel. No human rights are being imperiled by the measures proposed by Germany.
Oh, and while we're on the topic, I am also in favor of DTP vaccines being mandatory for children going to daycare/pre-school unless there is a medical reason not to vaccinate. And no, vaccines cause autism is not supported at all by medical science.
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@Xmz
Vaccines are not an on/off switch. The people that get infected are not "failures"
Even if it's "only" 95% effective, depending on the trial, that's 95% effective against ever catching covid to a point where it's detectable by some means (whether symptomatic or asymptomatic doesn't matter). Even if you're in the population that does catch it, severity is reduced dramatically. Where previously you may have been unlucky and been hospitalized, tossed in ICU etc, you now have cough for a few days. You are also far less likely to transmit it (BC study said ~75% lower chance of transmission from an infected person with one dose of vaccine, presumably even lower chance from someone with two).
Yes I'm scared of covid. I got the vaccine as soon as I could. I have no desire to get long term organ damage, regardless of how slim that chance is. I have nothing to prove by trying to catch covid and toughing it out when I can gain immunity the easy way through a vaccine. Calling people stupid for taking the vaccine shows a fundamental lack of understand of what a vaccine does.
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On June 16 2021 13:27 xM(Z wrote:
what a shit framing for the argument:
- you didn't get the vaccine to make others safer, you did it to save yourself; it is very clear from your posts that you were scared shitless 'cause covid is coming to get you.
- forbidding a part of the population from doing something is punishing.
EUs' covid certificates allow both vaccinated and people with past infections with covid, free passage(yes, vaccinated people are not better than people who were infected). between them, i say were fine.
the most stupid thing i find about the snowflakey attitude of vaccinated people, is that they don't even know for sure that they have immunity. the 5% to 40% chance for the vaccine to fail/not provide immunity, is a huge gap for having a one size fit all fucking cozy class of people and then giving all of them the same social 'rights'.
it is clear that they are rewarded for compliance and nothing else. it is like you train a dog: he does something you say it's good, then you give it a bone.
i know a good amount of vaccinated people that are against covid certificates which i find it is the right position to have.
Edit: also, 7 of the 11 vaccinated people at the firm i work for, already had a covid infection; that to me says a lot about the person seeking the vaccine; from those, there are 2 that are trying to get vaccinated with 3 vaccines, you know, just to be saferer.
it is stupid. shit needs to be called out.
You're right. Your post is stupid. You clearly don't understand how a vaccine is defined as "working". The goal is to limit the r naught to <1 so the disease dies on its own.
Isn't it weird how people who got the virus, really don't want to go through it once more ?
Also you don't have vaccines certificates in Romania ?
We are so close to the end, but people like you just make it harder for everybody and i'm sick of it. It is exactly why states are forced to make the vaccine mandatory, because you cannot be trusted to make the right decision on your own.
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I am likely getting vaccine call very soon! It is a small sacrifice to me, despite any potential side effects, and how they have worked in Israel, the US and elsewhere is very encouraging.
We just need to get those numbers down so society can get back to normal asap, including night life, and eventually making even mass testing and vaccine passports redundant.
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https://nypost.com/2021/06/05/democrats-think-healthy-people-should-continue-to-stay-home-poll/
A whopping 71 percent of Democrats in the United States want healthy people to stay home “as much as possible,” even as vaccinations soar and new coronavirus infections have plummeted, according to a new survey from Gallup.
In contrast, 87 percent of Republicans surveyed and 64 percent of independents said it was time for people to start living normally after more than a year of pandemic shutdowns and working from home.
The political divide on this is bonkers. What's it going to take for the Dems to give up on COVID? Even when vaccinated they want to stay home as much as possible? I imagine at this point it's more about needing to appear anti-Trump than anything else.
User was warned for this post.
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On June 16 2021 20:36 BlackJack wrote:https://nypost.com/2021/06/05/democrats-think-healthy-people-should-continue-to-stay-home-poll/Show nested quote +A whopping 71 percent of Democrats in the United States want healthy people to stay home “as much as possible,” even as vaccinations soar and new coronavirus infections have plummeted, according to a new survey from Gallup.
In contrast, 87 percent of Republicans surveyed and 64 percent of independents said it was time for people to start living normally after more than a year of pandemic shutdowns and working from home. The political divide on this is bonkers. What's it going to take for the Dems to give up on COVID? Even when vaccinated they want to stay home as much as possible? I imagine at this point it's more about needing to appear anti-Trump than anything else.
Once the pandemic dies down, people will be more in favor of opening up again. But avoiding preemptive opening is a very reasonable position to have.
I think people feel like we are on the final stretches and don't want to jeopardize that by opening up too far too quickly.
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Isn't it funny how people throwing tantrums like toddlers demand to be treated like adults? ;-)
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On June 16 2021 20:36 BlackJack wrote:https://nypost.com/2021/06/05/democrats-think-healthy-people-should-continue-to-stay-home-poll/Show nested quote +A whopping 71 percent of Democrats in the United States want healthy people to stay home “as much as possible,” even as vaccinations soar and new coronavirus infections have plummeted, according to a new survey from Gallup.
In contrast, 87 percent of Republicans surveyed and 64 percent of independents said it was time for people to start living normally after more than a year of pandemic shutdowns and working from home. The political divide on this is bonkers. What's it going to take for the Dems to give up on COVID? Even when vaccinated they want to stay home as much as possible? I imagine at this point it's more about needing to appear anti-Trump than anything else. Down from 85% in April.
Worldometer still puts the US in 6th for most new cases per day and some states are moving to stop reporting numbers, if any actually have yet I don't know but if they have it places an * next to any number.
Vaccination % is at about 50% with plenty states in the low 40's.
So things are going better but lets not all run outside and hug each other just yet.
I don't think that is an absurd position to take.
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On June 16 2021 17:59 Erasme wrote:
It is exactly why states are forced to make the vaccine mandatory, because you cannot be trusted to make the right decision on your own.
Where is this happening? Or it is just something you want to see
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On June 16 2021 17:59 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2021 13:27 xM(Z wrote:
what a shit framing for the argument:
- you didn't get the vaccine to make others safer, you did it to save yourself; it is very clear from your posts that you were scared shitless 'cause covid is coming to get you.
- forbidding a part of the population from doing something is punishing.
EUs' covid certificates allow both vaccinated and people with past infections with covid, free passage(yes, vaccinated people are not better than people who were infected). between them, i say were fine.
the most stupid thing i find about the snowflakey attitude of vaccinated people, is that they don't even know for sure that they have immunity. the 5% to 40% chance for the vaccine to fail/not provide immunity, is a huge gap for having a one size fit all fucking cozy class of people and then giving all of them the same social 'rights'.
it is clear that they are rewarded for compliance and nothing else. it is like you train a dog: he does something you say it's good, then you give it a bone.
i know a good amount of vaccinated people that are against covid certificates which i find it is the right position to have.
Edit: also, 7 of the 11 vaccinated people at the firm i work for, already had a covid infection; that to me says a lot about the person seeking the vaccine; from those, there are 2 that are trying to get vaccinated with 3 vaccines, you know, just to be saferer.
it is stupid. shit needs to be called out. You're right. Your post is stupid. You clearly don't understand how a vaccine is defined as "working". The goal is to limit the r naught to <1 so the disease dies on its own. Isn't it weird how people who got the virus, really don't want to go through it once more ? Also you don't have vaccines certificates in Romania ? We are so close to the end, but people like you just make it harder for everybody and i'm sick of it. It is exactly why states are forced to make the vaccine mandatory, because you cannot be trusted to make the right decision on your own.
it's like you haven't read a word i wrote ...
also, if you think covid will have an end, as in, it'll be eradicated, you live in lalaland.
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I did. Let me break it down i guess.
- you didn't get the vaccine to make others safer, you did it to save yourself; it is very clear from your posts that you were scared shitless 'cause covid is coming to get you.
First of all, the reasons to take the vaccine don't matter. Being vaccinated means you will be less contagious if you get it, meaning you will protect those around you.
- forbidding a part of the population from doing something is punishing
Forcing a part of a population to take a vaccine has been done, and should be done. We know what happens if you don't, you end up with diseases supposedly extinct flaring back up.
the 5% to 40% chance for the vaccine to fail/not provide immunity, is a huge gap for having a one size fit all fucking cozy class of people and then giving all of them the same social 'rights'.
Immunity is nice, but it really isn't the goal as i've stated. You want a rnaught under 1.
it is clear that they are rewarded for compliance and nothing else. it is like you train a dog: he does something you say it's good, then you give it a bone.
As you said it, it's hard to force people into doing something, so the carrot approach is better. But apparently you don't like it either lmao.
Just take the shot, get your covid certificates and live happily ever after. Hey, you might get superpowers 
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- of course the reason matters because it takes away the holier than thou attitude from you. when you do it for yourself, you're just as egotistical as the one who doesn't want to get vaccinated.
- you don't seem to know what kind of "disease" covid is.
-that wasn't about herd immunity but about personal immunity; that % chance for the vaccine to work, is the chance that you'll get immunized. 40% is the chance to be vaccinated and have no immunity what so ever.
- we have EU based covid certificates; it includes the people who had the disease, the ones vaccinated and the ones tested.
we have walk in/drive in vaccination points, caravans that travel around vaccinating people, gatherings where people are given beer and some (local)food then get vaccinated, and so on and so forth. whatever works.
the vaccines need to be administered because they were ordered and payed for.
i have two certificates; one for each time i had covid.
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EPT
