EPTOn December 08 2018 07:48 Mohdoo wrote:
So... where's the Manafort stuff?
So... where's the Manafort stuff?
From what I have heard it is under seal and will be supppper redacted
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 978
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IyMoon
United States1249 Posts
From what I have heard it is under seal and will be supppper redacted | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 08 2018 08:00 IyMoon wrote: From what I have heard it is under seal and will be supppper redacted That makes sense, because law is super boring and doesn't provide for good entertainment. Especially since there are ongoing investigations. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6183591/460/united-states-v-manafort/ | ||
Womwomwom
5930 Posts
I guess the arguement now is whether or not Trump’s campaign actually talked to them. Which isn’t much of an argument because Donald Trump Jr admitted on Twitter that he talked to them in hopes of getting dirt on the Dems. Like I don’t actually get people who seem to suggest nothing happened. To believe that one would have to believe Trump wouldn’t do anything illegal or underhanded (lmao), he doesn’t mind quid pro quo arrangements with a country that’s been bankrolling him since the time most major banks treated him as persona non grata and that Donald Trump Jr honestly wanted to talk about adoptions of Russian children. The argument that it happened but ultimately doesn’t matter because of the degree of US corruption that currently exists is a much better and reasonable position to take. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On December 08 2018 05:40 Sent. wrote: Considering this tweet below, "Trump disliked Tillerson" sounds like a huge understatement. + Show Spoiler + Damn son. Is this the worst lash-out he's done? To put into perspective the things Tillerson said: “What was challenging for me coming from the disciplined, highly process-oriented ExxonMobil corporation,” Tillerson said, was “to go to work for a man who is pretty undisciplined, doesn’t like to read, doesn’t read briefing reports, doesn’t like to get into the details of a lot of things, but rather just kind of says, ‘This is what I believe.’ “So often, the president would say, ‘Here’s what I want to do, and here’s how I want to do it,’ " Tillerson said, according to the Houston Chronicle, “and I would have to say to him, ‘Mr. President, I understand what you want to do, but you can’t do it that way. It violates the law.’ ” Given Trumps outrageous reaction I believe this depiction must be pretty near the truth. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ReditusSum
79 Posts
On December 08 2018 08:10 Womwomwom wrote: Like I don’t actually get people who seem to suggest nothing happened. To believe that one would have to believe Trump wouldn’t do anything illegal or underhanded (lmao), he doesn’t mind quid pro quo arrangements with a country that’s been bankrolling him since the time most major banks treated him as persona non grata and that Donald Trump Jr honestly wanted to talk about adoptions of Russian children. Donald Trump Jr. never claimed to want to talk about adoptions of Russian children. In fact, he claimed that when the topic came up he ended the meeting. Which is very important, because the entire claim against Don Jr. is that he tried to negotiate with Russia for dirt on Hillary. But the evidence we have now is that Don Jr. didn't try to negotiate anything at all. Don Jr. met with Natalia Veselnitskaya (Russian lawyer) while she was associated with and working with Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) because she had, through an intermediary, alleged to have some "dirt" on Hillary Clinton. According to the testimony of everyone at the meeting, Veselnitskaya did not have dirt on Hillary Clinton, but was eager to talk about removal of US sanctions on various Russian firms and business men (Russian adoptions). When Don Jr. realized she didn't have any dirt, he ended the meeting. 1) It is not illegal to receive "dirt" on a campaign, even from Russian lawyers. 2) There has yet to be any evidence that Don Jr. promised anything in return for "dirt" or that he was provided with any "dirt". 3) There is no indication that Don Jr. was aware of Veselnitskaya's desire to discuss sanctions before the meeting took place. 4) Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) had meetings with Veselnitskaya the night before the Trump Tower meeting, and then Veselnitskaya and Simpson met again the day after. 5) Veselnitskaya has publicly stated that she received the talking points she used in the Trump Tower meeting from Glenn Simpson. 6) Why was Veselnitskaya working with Fusion GPS? Well, to overturn the Magnistky Act. The very same Act she brought up to Don Jr! So what we have here is: No crime committed by Don Jr. Clinton campaign hires a firm working with Russian oligarchs to overturn sanctions on Russians to dig up dirt on Trump. Said firm supplies the talking points for a meeting with Don Jr. to Russian lawyer working with them on overturning sanctions. Don Jr. doesn't take the bait and ends the meeting. Firm eventually uses Russian sources to create an dossier on Trump. Dossier is leaked to the media and then serves as the basis for a Justice Dept investigation into Trump campaign. Justice Dept officials were working with same firm under the table the entire time, with senior Justice Dept official Bruce Ohr's wife being an employee of the firm the entire time, and Ohr himself exchanging text messages and emails with Christopher Steele, who was employed by the firm to dig up dirt on Trump and eventually wrote the dossier. It should be pretty easy to see why Republicans are skeptical about the whole "Russian collusion" narrative. edit: It should also be noted that the entire time all this Fusion GPS stuff was going on, the FBI and British Intelligence were actively surveilling Trump campaign advisers and planting information among them, going so far as to attempt to plant an informant (Stephen Halper) within the campaign itself. The Justice Dept and all involved have yet to explain how said surviellence and investigation started and why, and have also fought very hard to keep all those documents classified. Let that sink in. The Clinton campaign was working with a firm doing lobby work for Russia while said firm was also in communication with the Justice Dept while the DoJ was spying on Trump and both the firm and the DoJ made attempts to inject "Russian dirt" into the Trump campaign. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Trump Jr conspired to break the law by accepting that meeting. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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ReditusSum
79 Posts
On December 08 2018 10:43 Plansix wrote: It is illegal to receive dirt This is wrong. any form of material benefit from foreign powers or companies during an election This is right. Fusion GPS is an American company that was first hired by the Republicans. Fusion GPS was doing lobby work for Russia during the time the Clinton campaign hired them. All the "information" they received about Trump was procured from Russian sources. Trump Jr conspired to break the law by accepting that meeting. This is also wrong. https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/types-contributions/ A contribution is anything of value given, loaned or advanced to influence a federal election. "dirt" has no monetary value. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
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ReditusSum
79 Posts
On December 08 2018 10:48 On_Slaught wrote: Man, you have to ignore a lot of coincidences to get to Sun's conclusion. For example, I'm sure the timing of Trumps big press conference about Hillary dirt and his tweet about her emails the same afternoon as the meeting are just a coincidence. No possible connection. I'm sure the fact that the Veselnitskaya met with Glenn Simpson the night before and the night after the Trump Tower meeting and discussed the same things during the meeting for which she was working with Fusion GPS are just a coincidence. Tell me, if Trump had contacts with Russia through Manafort and Page (and allegedly Cohen) then why did he need a British publicist to set up a meeting with a Russian lawyer who had never met either Trumps before? | ||
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micronesia
United States24677 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 08 2018 10:48 ReditusSum wrote: This is wrong. This is right. Fusion GPS was doing lobby work for Russia during the time the Clinton campaign hired them. All the "information" they received about Trump was procured from Russian sources. This is also wrong. https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/types-contributions/ "dirt" has no monetary value. Opposition research has a monetary value. So does “dirt”, which is why blackmail works. Numerous former US attorneys and AGs have talked about this issue in the last two years and explained exactly why the meeting was a terrible idea and likely amounts to conspiracy. And Fusion GPS did not obtain all their information from Russian sources. That some silly nonsense. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On December 08 2018 10:48 ReditusSum wrote: This is wrong. This is right. Fusion GPS was doing lobby work for Russia during the time the Clinton campaign hired them. All the "information" they received about Trump was procured from Russian sources. This is also wrong. https://www.fec.gov/help-candidates-and-committees/candidate-taking-receipts/types-contributions/ "dirt" has no monetary value. I'm pretty sure "dirt" (e.g. stolen emails) falls under the "goods" category of that helpful link, which you'll note never actually says "monetary value." Especially because any services subsequently undertaken by the Russian government or Russian lawyers would definitely fall under that category. Just because the fair market value is difficult to determine doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Especially because it's almost certain that had there BEEN dirt, the Trump campaign could have paid money for it... | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On December 08 2018 10:38 ReditusSum wrote: Donald Trump Jr. never claimed to want to talk about adoptions of Russian children. In fact, he claimed that when the topic came up he ended the meeting. Which is very important, because the entire claim against Don Jr. is that he tried to negotiate with Russia for dirt on Hillary. But the evidence we have now is that Don Jr. didn't try to negotiate anything at all. Don Jr. met with Natalia Veselnitskaya (Russian lawyer) while she was associated with and working with Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) because she had, through an intermediary, alleged to have some "dirt" on Hillary Clinton. According to the testimony of everyone at the meeting, Veselnitskaya did not have dirt on Hillary Clinton, but was eager to talk about removal of US sanctions on various Russian firms and business men (Russian adoptions). When Don Jr. realized she didn't have any dirt, he ended the meeting. 1) It is not illegal to receive "dirt" on a campaign, even from Russian lawyers. 2) There has yet to be any evidence that Don Jr. promised anything in return for "dirt" or that he was provided with any "dirt". 3) There is no indication that Don Jr. was aware of Veselnitskaya's desire to discuss sanctions before the meeting took place. 4) Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) had meetings with Veselnitskaya the night before the Trump Tower meeting, and then Veselnitskaya and Simpson met again the day after. 5) Veselnitskaya has publicly stated that she received the talking points she used in the Trump Tower meeting from Glenn Simpson. 6) Why was Veselnitskaya working with Fusion GPS? Well, to overturn the Magnistky Act. The very same Act she brought up to Don Jr! So what we have here is: No crime committed by Don Jr. Clinton campaign hires a firm working with Russian oligarchs to overturn sanctions on Russians to dig up dirt on Trump. Said firm supplies the talking points for a meeting with Don Jr. to Russian lawyer working with them on overturning sanctions. Don Jr. doesn't take the bait and ends the meeting. Firm eventually uses Russian sources to create an dossier on Trump. Dossier is leaked to the media and then serves as the basis for a Justice Dept investigation into Trump campaign. Justice Dept officials were working with same firm under the table the entire time, with senior Justice Dept official Bruce Ohr's wife being an employee of the firm the entire time, and Ohr himself exchanging text messages and emails with Christopher Steele, who was employed by the firm to dig up dirt on Trump and eventually wrote the dossier. It should be pretty easy to see why Republicans are skeptical about the whole "Russian collusion" narrative. edit: It should also be noted that the entire time all this Fusion GPS stuff was going on, the FBI and British Intelligence were actively surveilling Trump campaign advisers and planting information among them, going so far as to attempt to plant an informant (Stephen Halper) within the campaign itself. The Justice Dept and all involved have yet to explain how said surviellence and investigation started and why, and have also fought very hard to keep all those documents classified. Let that sink in. The Clinton campaign was working with a firm doing lobby work for Russia while said firm was also in communication with the Justice Dept while the DoJ was spying on Trump and both the firm and the DoJ made attempts to inject "Russian dirt" into the Trump campaign. You're undercutting your own argument a bit here because the fact that don jr cut off the meeting when they started talking about adoptions shows that don Jr wanted to get dirt. The fact that he cut off the meeting for that reason is what we call a "bad fact" for don jr. And if he didnt intend to negotiate in exchange for the dirt, that only shows how stupid he is in believing that the Russians would offer dirt in exchange for nothing. To be clear, don jr understood the meeting to be "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign" and therefore he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from the Russian government. Put another way, he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from a foreign enemy in order to win a presidential campaign. And we all know that don sr was aware of the meeting (because we're not stupid enough to believe otherwise). Tl;dr for you to believe the meeting was NBD is manifestly silly. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 08 2018 11:22 TheTenthDoc wrote: I'm pretty sure "dirt" (e.g. stolen emails) falls under the "goods" category of that helpful link, which you'll note never actually says "monetary value." Especially because any services subsequently undertaken by the Russian government or Russian lawyers would definitely fall under that category. Just because the fair market value is difficult to determine doesn't mean it doesn't have value. Especially because it's almost certain that had there BEEN dirt, the Trump campaign could have paid money for it... This is why you know Sum’s argument is in bad faith and doesn’t believe what he is saying. He has a clear understanding of the law and the prongs required to prove Trump Jr conspirared to break it. And he pins his argument on the dubious agrument that information has no value. Yet in his own argument he talks about Fusion GPS, a for profit US company that gathers information. No person can have this understanding of the of the law and facts while peddling the bullshit Sum is trying to sell to us. He is role playing a conspiracy theorist. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
edit: after having a laugh at his reddit posting history, i redact my statement. It's not shitposting, i think his mind just works like Trumps. You actively and deliberately blend out evidence contrary to your claim, as if it doesn't exist, and run with it. Like trump is arguing that the latest Mueller "revelations" somehow totally cleared him (yet again). Women who seek to usurp the authority of men are possessed of the spirit of Jezebel. That one was funny though. | ||
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ReditusSum
79 Posts
On December 08 2018 11:26 Doodsmack wrote: You're undercutting your own argument a bit here because the fact that don jr cut off the meeting when they started talking about adoptions shows that don Jr wanted to get dirt. The fact that he cut off the meeting for that reason is what we call a "bad fact" for don jr. And if he didnt intend to negotiate in exchange for the dirt, that only shows how stupid he is in believing that the Russians would offer dirt in exchange for nothing. To be clear, don jr understood the meeting to be "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign" and therefore he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from the Russian government. Put another way, he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from a foreign enemy in order to win a presidential campaign. And we all know that don sr was aware of the meeting (because we're not stupid enough to believe otherwise). Tl;dr for you to believe the meeting was NBD is manifestly silly. Yes, he wanted dirt. Receiving dirt from a person who happens to be a Russian is not illegal. It isn't even illegal to receive dirt from Putin himself. What would be illegal would be to negotiate on behalf of the United States for that dirt. That would violate the Logan Act. Regardless of whether or not you think "dirt" qualifies as material benefit (it doesn't), the fact is that this would have to be hashed out in court and given the make-up of the Supreme Court it is all but certain that they would side with the President on this definition. Given this, the legal reality (if it ever comes up) is that "dirt" is not an in-kind contribution and thus what Don Jr. did was not illegal. Anyway, it has been known for over a year what Don Jr did, so if it was illegal why hasn't he been arrested and charged? Yes, the email from the British publicist was very carefully worded, as if he knew exactly what he needed to write to imply some kind of collusion scheme. Which again undercuts the point you are trying to make. If Donald Trump was already in contact with the Russians and being supported by them "as early as 2015" and had contacts through Manafort, Page, and Cohen; and presumably even more contacts through other business interests; then why would Don Jr. need to receive an email from a British publicist setting up a meeting where a Russian lawyer none of them have ever met will provide them dirt as "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign"? Assuming all the allegations are true; then Donald Trump himself already had backdoor contacts with Moscow. If he wanted to set up a meeting, then he would just go through those contacts. And if they wanted to set up a meeting, they would just go through those contacts. So why did they randomly find a British publicist to approach Don Jr and leave a paper trail to set up yet another contact point with a Russian lawyer who just happens to be working with the same firm that Hillary Clinton hired to "find" dirt concerning Trump and Russia? A Russian lawyer who just happened to be meeting with the co-founder of that same firm the night before and the night after the Trump Tower meeting? The meeting wasn't no-big-deal. It was a very big deal. Because it was a honeypot scheme to try to implicate Donald Trump Jr with Russian collusion! | ||
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