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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Chem trails are real folks, and they made Don Jr meet with Russia.
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On December 08 2018 13:43 Plansix wrote:
Chem trails are real folks, and they made Don Jr meet with Russia.
Ehh... Knew you wouldn't "argue in good faith". Gonna peace out now. No point banging my head against a wall.
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On December 08 2018 13:47 ReditusSum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2018 13:43 Plansix wrote:
Chem trails are real folks, and they made Don Jr meet with Russia. Ehh... Knew you wouldn't "argue in good faith". Gonna peace out now. No point banging my head against a wall.
To be honest, I except something more you just recycling a low content version of my observation about bad faith arguments.
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United States43203 Posts
My favourite part about the honeypot theory is that it's coming out now. 6 months before the election Clinton tricked Trump Jr. into participating in a conspiracy with Russian intelligence, the infamous "if it is what you say I love it" email. Then she sat on this information until after the election.
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It just works.
You just don't understand it. You see, the reality is, not Trump is playing 4D chess, it's Hillary. It's a false flag operation not only by Hillary, but also them, to frame Trump into doing something he'd never even consider.
Hell, for all we know, Jared could've solved the Israel conflict by now, easy. But because the democrats are insisting on, you know, getting people behind bars or some stupid stuff like that, they just can't. That, and the chinese.
I mean it's really obvious if you look very closely at everything.
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On December 08 2018 13:15 m4ini wrote:Pretty sophisticated shitposting though, gotta give credit where credit is due. edit: after having a laugh at his reddit posting history, i redact my statement. It's not shitposting, i think his mind just works like Trumps. You actively and deliberately blend out evidence contrary to your claim, as if it doesn't exist, and run with it. Like trump is arguing that the latest Mueller "revelations" somehow totally cleared him (yet again). Show nested quote +Women who seek to usurp the authority of men are possessed of the spirit of Jezebel.
That one was funny though.
Well at least I now have confirmation that such people still exist.
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On December 08 2018 18:23 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2018 13:15 m4ini wrote:Pretty sophisticated shitposting though, gotta give credit where credit is due. edit: after having a laugh at his reddit posting history, i redact my statement. It's not shitposting, i think his mind just works like Trumps. You actively and deliberately blend out evidence contrary to your claim, as if it doesn't exist, and run with it. Like trump is arguing that the latest Mueller "revelations" somehow totally cleared him (yet again). Women who seek to usurp the authority of men are possessed of the spirit of Jezebel.
That one was funny though. Well at least I now have confirmation that such people still exist.
Well, the fact that his ideal form of government is a theocratic (Catholic) monarchy should have given you early warning that he has only a very tenuous grasp on reality.
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On December 08 2018 18:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2018 18:23 iamthedave wrote:On December 08 2018 13:15 m4ini wrote:Pretty sophisticated shitposting though, gotta give credit where credit is due. edit: after having a laugh at his reddit posting history, i redact my statement. It's not shitposting, i think his mind just works like Trumps. You actively and deliberately blend out evidence contrary to your claim, as if it doesn't exist, and run with it. Like trump is arguing that the latest Mueller "revelations" somehow totally cleared him (yet again). Women who seek to usurp the authority of men are possessed of the spirit of Jezebel.
That one was funny though. Well at least I now have confirmation that such people still exist. Well, the fact that his ideal form of government is a theocratic (Catholic) monarchy should have given you early warning that he has only a very tenuous grasp on reality.
I'm willing to extend the olive branch of complete ignorance of history since he doesn't seem to understand how the enlightenment happened and appears to boil it down to 'that time when people stopped believing in god' or the role that the church played in making it a thing.
It's like saying the French Revolution is the worst thing to happen to France and we need to go back to the good ol' days of the French monarchs, forgetting that those tossers are the exact reason the Revolution happened in the first place.
In and of itself I don't even consider it a ridiculous idea (thought experiments are always fun), it's the idea you need to go back to it, thus unlearning all the lessons one could theoretically employ to make such a system work.
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On December 08 2018 18:48 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2018 18:23 iamthedave wrote:On December 08 2018 13:15 m4ini wrote:Pretty sophisticated shitposting though, gotta give credit where credit is due. edit: after having a laugh at his reddit posting history, i redact my statement. It's not shitposting, i think his mind just works like Trumps. You actively and deliberately blend out evidence contrary to your claim, as if it doesn't exist, and run with it. Like trump is arguing that the latest Mueller "revelations" somehow totally cleared him (yet again). Women who seek to usurp the authority of men are possessed of the spirit of Jezebel.
That one was funny though. Well at least I now have confirmation that such people still exist. Well, the fact that his ideal form of government is a theocratic (Catholic) monarchy should have given you early warning that he has only a very tenuous grasp on reality.
While true that that was an indication, there's still the benefit of the doubt and the fact that some thought experiments can be interesting to some degree, if presented well.
I'd like to point out though that even on reddit, the majority of his postings (i think all, even) are downvoted, just as an indication that the "normal" religious person isn't actually in agreement with him and his views. You absolutely can be religious and not insane.
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You know that was some good late summer honey, Jr loved it
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The Trump Tower meeting was also not included in the Steele dossier as far as I recall. So Fusion GPS, who supposedly set up this "honeypot scheme", did not even tell Steele about it to put it in his report? Boggles the mind, no?
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Wow, there's a few gems in Trumps newest Twitter-rush.
Tweets.
+ Show Spoiler +
I mean, i know the rules, but it's hard to put something here into context. It's literally all bullshit. Nothing there has even remotely a basis in reality.
I especially love the remarks in regards to the "european army" that existed in WW1 and WW2, and that somehow he's proud that emissions went down in the US - considering that this is because individual states made clear that they'll still follow it. Oh and the minor fact that the US is still the second dirtiest country in the world, and the dirtiest if you go by dirt per capita.
Contrary to americans, i actually never cease to be shocked every single time he tries to make a.. statement, i guess. That's your president.
Like one could go ahead and explain that there was no "european army" in either world war, but this is so basic knowledge that i honestly don't think there's something to explain here.
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United States43203 Posts
I thought Trump was a Paris denier. He's on record saying that Paris doesn't exist anymore.
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When will this shitshow end? What are his chances for re-election? T___T
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On December 08 2018 13:39 ReditusSum wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2018 11:26 Doodsmack wrote:On December 08 2018 10:38 ReditusSum wrote:On December 08 2018 08:10 Womwomwom wrote:
Like I don’t actually get people who seem to suggest nothing happened. To believe that one would have to believe Trump wouldn’t do anything illegal or underhanded (lmao), he doesn’t mind quid pro quo arrangements with a country that’s been bankrolling him since the time most major banks treated him as persona non grata and that Donald Trump Jr honestly wanted to talk about adoptions of Russian children. Donald Trump Jr. never claimed to want to talk about adoptions of Russian children. In fact, he claimed that when the topic came up he ended the meeting. Which is very important, because the entire claim against Don Jr. is that he tried to negotiate with Russia for dirt on Hillary. But the evidence we have now is that Don Jr. didn't try to negotiate anything at all. Don Jr. met with Natalia Veselnitskaya (Russian lawyer) while she was associated with and working with Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) because she had, through an intermediary, alleged to have some "dirt" on Hillary Clinton. According to the testimony of everyone at the meeting, Veselnitskaya did not have dirt on Hillary Clinton, but was eager to talk about removal of US sanctions on various Russian firms and business men (Russian adoptions). When Don Jr. realized she didn't have any dirt, he ended the meeting. 1) It is not illegal to receive "dirt" on a campaign, even from Russian lawyers. 2) There has yet to be any evidence that Don Jr. promised anything in return for "dirt" or that he was provided with any "dirt". 3) There is no indication that Don Jr. was aware of Veselnitskaya's desire to discuss sanctions before the meeting took place. 4) Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) had meetings with Veselnitskaya the night before the Trump Tower meeting, and then Veselnitskaya and Simpson met again the day after. 5) Veselnitskaya has publicly stated that she received the talking points she used in the Trump Tower meeting from Glenn Simpson. 6) Why was Veselnitskaya working with Fusion GPS? Well, to overturn the Magnistky Act. The very same Act she brought up to Don Jr! So what we have here is: No crime committed by Don Jr. Clinton campaign hires a firm working with Russian oligarchs to overturn sanctions on Russians to dig up dirt on Trump. Said firm supplies the talking points for a meeting with Don Jr. to Russian lawyer working with them on overturning sanctions. Don Jr. doesn't take the bait and ends the meeting. Firm eventually uses Russian sources to create an dossier on Trump. Dossier is leaked to the media and then serves as the basis for a Justice Dept investigation into Trump campaign. Justice Dept officials were working with same firm under the table the entire time, with senior Justice Dept official Bruce Ohr's wife being an employee of the firm the entire time, and Ohr himself exchanging text messages and emails with Christopher Steele, who was employed by the firm to dig up dirt on Trump and eventually wrote the dossier. It should be pretty easy to see why Republicans are skeptical about the whole "Russian collusion" narrative. edit: It should also be noted that the entire time all this Fusion GPS stuff was going on, the FBI and British Intelligence were actively surveilling Trump campaign advisers and planting information among them, going so far as to attempt to plant an informant (Stephen Halper) within the campaign itself. The Justice Dept and all involved have yet to explain how said surviellence and investigation started and why, and have also fought very hard to keep all those documents classified. Let that sink in. The Clinton campaign was working with a firm doing lobby work for Russia while said firm was also in communication with the Justice Dept while the DoJ was spying on Trump and both the firm and the DoJ made attempts to inject "Russian dirt" into the Trump campaign. You're undercutting your own argument a bit here because the fact that don jr cut off the meeting when they started talking about adoptions shows that don Jr wanted to get dirt. The fact that he cut off the meeting for that reason is what we call a "bad fact" for don jr. And if he didnt intend to negotiate in exchange for the dirt, that only shows how stupid he is in believing that the Russians would offer dirt in exchange for nothing. To be clear, don jr understood the meeting to be "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign" and therefore he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from the Russian government. Put another way, he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from a foreign enemy in order to win a presidential campaign. And we all know that don sr was aware of the meeting (because we're not stupid enough to believe otherwise). Tl;dr for you to believe the meeting was NBD is manifestly silly. Yes, he wanted dirt. Receiving dirt from a person who happens to be a Russian is not illegal. It isn't even illegal to receive dirt from Putin himself. What would be illegal would be to negotiate on behalf of the United States for that dirt. That would violate the Logan Act. Regardless of whether or not you think "dirt" qualifies as material benefit (it doesn't), the fact is that this would have to be hashed out in court and given the make-up of the Supreme Court it is all but certain that they would side with the President on this definition. Given this, the legal reality (if it ever comes up) is that "dirt" is not an in-kind contribution and thus what Don Jr. did was not illegal. Anyway, it has been known for over a year what Don Jr did, so if it was illegal why hasn't he been arrested and charged? Yes, the email from the British publicist was very carefully worded, as if he knew exactly what he needed to write to imply some kind of collusion scheme. Which again undercuts the point you are trying to make. If Donald Trump was already in contact with the Russians and being supported by them "as early as 2015" and had contacts through Manafort, Page, and Cohen; and presumably even more contacts through other business interests; then why would Don Jr. need to receive an email from a British publicist setting up a meeting where a Russian lawyer none of them have ever met will provide them dirt as "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign"? Assuming all the allegations are true; then Donald Trump himself already had backdoor contacts with Moscow. If he wanted to set up a meeting, then he would just go through those contacts. And if they wanted to set up a meeting, they would just go through those contacts. So why did they randomly find a British publicist to approach Don Jr and leave a paper trail to set up yet another contact point with a Russian lawyer who just happens to be working with the same firm that Hillary Clinton hired to "find" dirt concerning Trump and Russia? A Russian lawyer who just happened to be meeting with the co-founder of that same firm the night before and the night after the Trump Tower meeting? The meeting wasn't no-big-deal. It was a very big deal. Because it was a honeypot scheme to try to implicate Donald Trump Jr with Russian collusion!
You failed to refute this point:
Don jr understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from a foreign enemy in order to win a presidential campaign. And don sr almost certainly understood the same.
You dont actually believe that that's not a big deal.
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On December 09 2018 06:48 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2018 13:39 ReditusSum wrote:On December 08 2018 11:26 Doodsmack wrote:On December 08 2018 10:38 ReditusSum wrote:On December 08 2018 08:10 Womwomwom wrote:
Like I don’t actually get people who seem to suggest nothing happened. To believe that one would have to believe Trump wouldn’t do anything illegal or underhanded (lmao), he doesn’t mind quid pro quo arrangements with a country that’s been bankrolling him since the time most major banks treated him as persona non grata and that Donald Trump Jr honestly wanted to talk about adoptions of Russian children. Donald Trump Jr. never claimed to want to talk about adoptions of Russian children. In fact, he claimed that when the topic came up he ended the meeting. Which is very important, because the entire claim against Don Jr. is that he tried to negotiate with Russia for dirt on Hillary. But the evidence we have now is that Don Jr. didn't try to negotiate anything at all. Don Jr. met with Natalia Veselnitskaya (Russian lawyer) while she was associated with and working with Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) because she had, through an intermediary, alleged to have some "dirt" on Hillary Clinton. According to the testimony of everyone at the meeting, Veselnitskaya did not have dirt on Hillary Clinton, but was eager to talk about removal of US sanctions on various Russian firms and business men (Russian adoptions). When Don Jr. realized she didn't have any dirt, he ended the meeting. 1) It is not illegal to receive "dirt" on a campaign, even from Russian lawyers. 2) There has yet to be any evidence that Don Jr. promised anything in return for "dirt" or that he was provided with any "dirt". 3) There is no indication that Don Jr. was aware of Veselnitskaya's desire to discuss sanctions before the meeting took place. 4) Glenn Simpson (Fusion GPS) had meetings with Veselnitskaya the night before the Trump Tower meeting, and then Veselnitskaya and Simpson met again the day after. 5) Veselnitskaya has publicly stated that she received the talking points she used in the Trump Tower meeting from Glenn Simpson. 6) Why was Veselnitskaya working with Fusion GPS? Well, to overturn the Magnistky Act. The very same Act she brought up to Don Jr! So what we have here is: No crime committed by Don Jr. Clinton campaign hires a firm working with Russian oligarchs to overturn sanctions on Russians to dig up dirt on Trump. Said firm supplies the talking points for a meeting with Don Jr. to Russian lawyer working with them on overturning sanctions. Don Jr. doesn't take the bait and ends the meeting. Firm eventually uses Russian sources to create an dossier on Trump. Dossier is leaked to the media and then serves as the basis for a Justice Dept investigation into Trump campaign. Justice Dept officials were working with same firm under the table the entire time, with senior Justice Dept official Bruce Ohr's wife being an employee of the firm the entire time, and Ohr himself exchanging text messages and emails with Christopher Steele, who was employed by the firm to dig up dirt on Trump and eventually wrote the dossier. It should be pretty easy to see why Republicans are skeptical about the whole "Russian collusion" narrative. edit: It should also be noted that the entire time all this Fusion GPS stuff was going on, the FBI and British Intelligence were actively surveilling Trump campaign advisers and planting information among them, going so far as to attempt to plant an informant (Stephen Halper) within the campaign itself. The Justice Dept and all involved have yet to explain how said surviellence and investigation started and why, and have also fought very hard to keep all those documents classified. Let that sink in. The Clinton campaign was working with a firm doing lobby work for Russia while said firm was also in communication with the Justice Dept while the DoJ was spying on Trump and both the firm and the DoJ made attempts to inject "Russian dirt" into the Trump campaign. You're undercutting your own argument a bit here because the fact that don jr cut off the meeting when they started talking about adoptions shows that don Jr wanted to get dirt. The fact that he cut off the meeting for that reason is what we call a "bad fact" for don jr. And if he didnt intend to negotiate in exchange for the dirt, that only shows how stupid he is in believing that the Russians would offer dirt in exchange for nothing. To be clear, don jr understood the meeting to be "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign" and therefore he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from the Russian government. Put another way, he understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from a foreign enemy in order to win a presidential campaign. And we all know that don sr was aware of the meeting (because we're not stupid enough to believe otherwise). Tl;dr for you to believe the meeting was NBD is manifestly silly. Yes, he wanted dirt. Receiving dirt from a person who happens to be a Russian is not illegal. It isn't even illegal to receive dirt from Putin himself. What would be illegal would be to negotiate on behalf of the United States for that dirt. That would violate the Logan Act. Regardless of whether or not you think "dirt" qualifies as material benefit (it doesn't), the fact is that this would have to be hashed out in court and given the make-up of the Supreme Court it is all but certain that they would side with the President on this definition. Given this, the legal reality (if it ever comes up) is that "dirt" is not an in-kind contribution and thus what Don Jr. did was not illegal. Anyway, it has been known for over a year what Don Jr did, so if it was illegal why hasn't he been arrested and charged? Yes, the email from the British publicist was very carefully worded, as if he knew exactly what he needed to write to imply some kind of collusion scheme. Which again undercuts the point you are trying to make. If Donald Trump was already in contact with the Russians and being supported by them "as early as 2015" and had contacts through Manafort, Page, and Cohen; and presumably even more contacts through other business interests; then why would Don Jr. need to receive an email from a British publicist setting up a meeting where a Russian lawyer none of them have ever met will provide them dirt as "part of the Russian government's support for trumps campaign"? Assuming all the allegations are true; then Donald Trump himself already had backdoor contacts with Moscow. If he wanted to set up a meeting, then he would just go through those contacts. And if they wanted to set up a meeting, they would just go through those contacts. So why did they randomly find a British publicist to approach Don Jr and leave a paper trail to set up yet another contact point with a Russian lawyer who just happens to be working with the same firm that Hillary Clinton hired to "find" dirt concerning Trump and Russia? A Russian lawyer who just happened to be meeting with the co-founder of that same firm the night before and the night after the Trump Tower meeting? The meeting wasn't no-big-deal. It was a very big deal. Because it was a honeypot scheme to try to implicate Donald Trump Jr with Russian collusion! You failed to refute this point: Don jr understood the purpose of the meeting to be obtaining assistance from a foreign enemy in order to win a presidential campaign. And don sr almost certainly understood the same. You dont actually believe that that's not a big deal.
Deus vult. 
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5930 Posts
On December 09 2018 04:03 m4ini wrote:Wow, there's a few gems in Trumps newest Twitter-rush. Tweets. + Show Spoiler +I mean, i know the rules, but it's hard to put something here into context. It's literally all bullshit. Nothing there has even remotely a basis in reality. I especially love the remarks in regards to the "european army" that existed in WW1 and WW2, and that somehow he's proud that emissions went down in the US - considering that this is because individual states made clear that they'll still follow it. Oh and the minor fact that the US is still the second dirtiest country in the world, and the dirtiest if you go by dirt per capita. Contrary to americans, i actually never cease to be shocked every single time he tries to make a.. statement, i guess. That's your president. Like one could go ahead and explain that there was no "european army" in either world war, but this is so basic knowledge that i honestly don't think there's something to explain here.
Trump is just gaslighting but I think everyone basically subconsciously knows he's doing this by now. That's why it really isn't shocking anymore, most people just automatically assume he's either really that dumb or lying to appease his base.
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Trump and gaslighting are tricky. Actual gaslighting (making someone doubt their own sanity through lies or actions) requires someone to trust you and for your lies to not be readily disprovable. If someone hides their spouse's car keys in the fridge and tells them they must have put them there, if they have a fridge cam the spouse isn't going to doubt their sanity-they're going to be pissed.
Trump has burned the trust bridge unabashedly-he even admits to his followers he will lie to them-and he regularly lies about things that can be googled. Nobody who dislikes Trump reads his tweets and thinks "Surely he wouldn't lie about that." Now more than ever it feels like him trying to force people to pay attention to him and control the narrative, while getting a few people to clap for him. It's weird to call that gaslighting to me, but that may just be a new meaning of the world (which I think kind of devalues its real origins in domestic abuse, but whatever).
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EPT
