EPTYeah. "We wanted you to know how it feels to be victimized by a cartel, so we did the same thing to you!"
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3775
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micronesia
United States24578 Posts
Yeah. "We wanted you to know how it feels to be victimized by a cartel, so we did the same thing to you!" | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21362 Posts
On September 18 2022 01:16 micronesia wrote: Cartel members also get arrested if caught. And human trafficking is illegal so... lets arrest some people Check out this Tweet from DeSantis's deputy communications director: https://twitter.com/JeremyRedfernFL/status/1570428437025751042 Yeah. "We wanted you to know how it feels to be victimized by a cartel, so we did the same thing to you!"  | ||
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Introvert
United States4659 Posts
On September 17 2022 19:23 Taelshin wrote: Considering what these folks have been through a trip to MV must be like a god send. Also when you get there its the most accepting people in all of human kind, who ALSO have nearly the MOST wealth of all people in human kind. What a god send to these folks . + Show Spoiler + https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/16/politics/marthas-vineyard-migrants-shelter-desantis/index.html Oh jeeze they had them sent to a military base, I guess there wasn't enough room in MV after tourist season, no place to put them up. Seriously though I don't like using people as political tools but that's exactly what the democrats(and others) have done for years, Very unfortunate. As far as illegal? no idea not a lawyer but it seems the Biden admin has been doing this for the last 2 years. + Show Spoiler + https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/biden-secretly-flying-underage-migrants-into-ny-in-dead-of-night/ And the reaction from folks here is pretty much par for the course so far. Personally I think sending people to MV is a stunt. It was only 50 folks, but that's likely 50 too many. That said people being sent to DC and CHI are being met with the same response. Push open borders ( like the koch brothers) and every Democrat in my lifetime-ish and get this kind of push back. Problem with Neo-libs-cons is that they don't want to reap what they sow. Once again DeSantis picks his fights very well, unlike a different Flordia resident angling for the presidency. He knows before how the left is going to massively over-react and just let's them. (trafficking? seriously? Since Trump, is there no BS legal theory the left won't push?) Thr border had been is crisis almost since the day Buden was inaugurated and they dont make a peep. Migrants die or are abused every single day near the border and no one cares anymore. The administration laughably claims the border is secure. Biden ships people around to smaller, less rich communities straining them and no one cares. Ditto for the towns actually in border states. NYC and Chicago are also saying services are strained irrc. But a mere 50 people arrive in Martha's Vineyard (a self proclaimed sanctuary city) and Democrats and the left go nuts. It had exactly the intended purpose. Highlight the failure of the Biden administration and Democrat talking points on border policies. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
IIRC Eisenhower did a big operation to snatch a bunch of immigrants and dump them in Mexico. They had no due process. No provisions were made to ensure they would be provided for where they went. Some of them were US citizens. Was that a “win?” Should we praise him for “picking his fight well?” If this is what you want from a government, your ideology is not, by any reasonable definition, “conservative” or “originalist” or a “values voter.” You want government power used to hurt people you don’t like. That’s the policy objective. Which, frankly, would be a refreshing bit of honesty if someone would say that up front. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
On September 18 2022 02:33 Introvert wrote: Once again DeSantis picks his fights very well, unlike a different Flordia resident angling for the presidency. He knows before how the left is going to massively over-react and just let's them. (trafficking? seriously? Since Trump, is there no BS legal theory the left won't push?) Thr border had been is crisis almost since the day Buden was inaugurated and they dont make a peep. Migrants die or are abused every single day near the border and no one cares anymore. The administration laughably claims the border is secure. Biden ships people around to smaller, less rich communities straining them and no one cares. Ditto for the towns actually in border states. NYC and Chicago are also saying services are strained irrc. But a mere 50 people arrive in Martha's Vineyard (a self proclaimed sanctuary city) and Democrats and the left go nuts. It had exactly the intended purpose. Highlight the failure of the Biden administration and Democrat talking points on border policies. Tbh I'm inclined to largely agree with this analysis. (With the caveat that I have no idea how real or big of a deal the border crisis is right now). But while I think it's cynical to use refugees or migrants as part of a political stunt, this still strikes me as a clever and effective stunt - and I really don't think the 50 people shipped off to Martha's Vinyard are in a particularly bad spot relative to other migrants. Imo it's entirely fair by the border states to request (or even demand) that non-border states accept a fair share of migrants. (Again, with the caveat, and I'm cellposting so not in a position to research, that I have no idea what the migrant by state equation currently looks like. ) The main issue I have is that this seems to be designed more from a 'stick it to the libs' than from a 'let's highlight this problem so we can find a solution together' perspective, but at least it's a pretty smart way of going about just that. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13738 Posts
On September 18 2022 02:33 Introvert wrote: Once again DeSantis picks his fights very well, unlike a different Flordia resident angling for the presidency. He knows before how the left is going to massively over-react and just let's them. (trafficking? seriously? Since Trump, is there no BS legal theory the left won't push?) Thr border had been is crisis almost since the day Buden was inaugurated and they dont make a peep. Migrants die or are abused every single day near the border and no one cares anymore. The administration laughably claims the border is secure. Biden ships people around to smaller, less rich communities straining them and no one cares. Ditto for the towns actually in border states. NYC and Chicago are also saying services are strained irrc. But a mere 50 people arrive in Martha's Vineyard (a self proclaimed sanctuary city) and Democrats and the left go nuts. It had exactly the intended purpose. Highlight the failure of the Biden administration and Democrat talking points on border policies. Its not a BS legal theory its literally what it is. Desantis kidnapped people and decided to only tell fox news because he wanted to use human beings as political props. He trafficked a population of people who are here legally and were documented across state lines because cruelty to him is legitimate political discourse. They weren't even in his state he paid people in another state to target a population specifically, feed them bad information to make it so that their status would be chaos when they arrived, lied to them about the situation they would find themselves in when they got there, and told a news organization so that they, and only they, would be there when they arrived. What possible gymnastics can you do to justify it? Its incredible how you are able to throw out your basic decency to celebrate child trafficking. They are human beings Intorvert not pawns to be tossed around while you campaign to be president. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13738 Posts
On September 18 2022 03:14 Liquid`Drone wrote: Tbh I'm inclined to largely agree with this analysis. (With the caveat that I have no idea how real or big of a deal the border crisis is right now). But while I think it's cynical to use refugees or migrants as part of a political stunt, this still strikes me as a clever and effective stunt - and I really don't think the 50 people shipped off to Martha's Vinyard are in a particularly bad spot relative to other migrants. Imo it's entirely fair by the border states to request (or even demand) that non-border states accept a fair share of migrants. (Again, with the caveat, and I'm cellposting so not in a position to research, that I have no idea what the migrant by state equation currently looks like. ) The main issue I have is that this seems to be designed more from a 'stick it to the libs' than from a 'let's highlight this problem so we can find a solution together' perspective, but at least it's a pretty smart way of going about just that. It would be cool if we could all agree that human beings have value but unfortunately, we can't get there. Relocating migrants into the interior of the nation efficiently and compassionately would be the best outcome. It would be cool if we could treat refugees as human beings and integrate them into the nation. Minnesota has the highest acceptance of refugees per capita in the united states. Detriot could use a few million people to repopulate the city and reuse the existing infrastructure that is so costly to maintain. I remember not that long ago a lot of conservatives were bitching day in day out about a labor shortage. Gee I wonder where we could find labor to plug that shortage. You need to accept that decisions were taken to inflict as much cruelty on these HUMAN BEINGS, and to make it as hard as possible for them to integrate in their new community. You also need to accept that they think that "the libs are freaking out" because migrants got shipped to better states than texas, when in reality we're freaking out that they couldn't take basic steps to treat them as human beings instead of working hard to make the situation worse. They don't see them as people drone, they just don't see them as people. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
I'm with ChristanS on this one. We all basically know why the Republicans do anything they do. The cruelty is the point. If y'all could dispense with the smokescreens and just own it, that would save everyone the time and energy going back and forth about it. | ||
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oBlade
United States5294 Posts
On September 17 2022 09:46 Sermokala wrote: Keep in mind that they trafficed these people to a town that is super seasonal and waited until after the tourist season to ship human beings for a political stunt. Desantis took a 2 year old that had to travel on foot from Venezuela and decided the "win" situation was to use them as a political prop. What are you referencing there? Why did a 2 year old have to walk from Venezuela to... Florida? On September 18 2022 01:16 micronesia wrote: Check out this Tweet from DeSantis's deputy communications director: https://twitter.com/JeremyRedfernFL/status/1570428437025751042 Yeah. "We wanted you to know how it feels to be victimized by a cartel, so we did the same thing to you!" Yes exactly basically they want to highlight that the policies people support disappear when they actually affect them personally and have to deal with the very real consequences which is why they ended up deported from a sanctuary city within a day. People are saying these people were used as political "pawns." 50 people who as far as I can see volunteered and were appreciative. What I don't like is the left using millions of vulnerable people as political pawns to prove to themselves how less racist they are than the right. The Democratic party didn't always play fast and loose with immigration law this way. I think this "sanctuary" theory came after first states saw there were no consequences with having marijuana policies that contradicted (or subverted) federal law. But anyway. The median bank balance of people in the US is actually comparable to or less than the amount of money it takes to smuggle oneself into the country. In other words, possibly more than half of Americans don't have the liquidity to afford to illegally immigrate to their own country. The exact figures aren't important but we can all see the point. Many people's lives in history and in the world today are and have been shit, the US doesn't have room to consider every such person a "refugee" and take care of them just because their life is worse than that in the US when US citizens themselves don't have the cash to make the same perilous journey through multiple safe 3rd countries before finally arriving in the US. By refusing to address the basic issue of illegal immigration, in order to reassure themselves and their peers what good people they are by opposing racist Republicans, the left causes suffering when hundreds of thousands to millions of people end up paying their hard-earned money directly to criminal syndicates for the privilege to get raped and abused by them or left to die in an overheated trailer, in the hope of an American dream the left seems to mislead them into thinking is accessible that they can't have because the opportunities don't exist because 1) they're not legal immigrants and 2) the job market isn't robust enough to handle the influx and 3) cultural and language differences abound leaving them less-than...reputable? options for employment Money which funds those same criminal syndicates to control the illegal drug trade, leaving tens of thousands of Americans directly dead from overdose and drug-related deaths (largely opioids, of which largely illicit fentanyl), plus the suffering caused by lives of crime made possible by there being black markets for drugs in the US to distribute the supply that gets trafficked over the border by the same people smuggling migrants who are emboldened by the whole affair. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23825 Posts
I’m in Drone’s boat as I’m on mobile and can’t research, also been ignoring the news as the collective hysteria over the Queen is profoundly nauseating to my particular sensibilities. From the limited amount I have seen it’s profoundly distasteful, a stunt to play well to a particular political constituency for personal Presidential run bona fides, with actual people as the currency for kudos. I think there are important conversations and actual considered policies to be had over immigration that dwell somewhere between the poles of open borders or build a wall, but this ain’t it | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
Intentions aren't magic. Intentions are like director's commentary. It can be nice to have, but nobody's gonna care if it accompanies a shitty movie. You can try to peel away the layers of morality and ensconce your politics in the trappings of intentionality, but ultimately you're condoning treating people inhumanely just because it hurts people. I really don't give a shit why you consider that a win. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
On September 18 2022 03:48 WombaT wrote: If this was actually a policy, well-integrated and with cooperation across state lines that’s one thing. I’m in Drone’s boat as I’m on mobile and can’t research, also been ignoring the news as the collective hysteria over the Queen is profoundly nauseating to my particular sensibilities. From the limited amount I have seen it’s profoundly distasteful, a stunt to play well to a particular political constituency for personal Presidential run bona fides, with actual people as the currency for kudos. I think there are important conversations and actual considered policies to be had over immigration that dwell somewhere between the poles of open borders or build a wall, but this ain’t it There's not going to be cooperation because although the progressive leaders of these cities like to pat themselves on the back for how welcoming and tolerant they are the fact is they don't want these migrants there either. The mayor of Chicago has been sending the migrants she received from Texas to neighboring Republican-majority suburbs. The mayor one of of the suburbs says neither him or his staff was given any heads up that migrants would be sent to their town. https://nypost.com/2022/09/12/lori-lightfoot-accused-of-hypocrisy-over-border-crossers/ | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10180 Posts
On September 17 2022 20:55 micronesia wrote: Interesting how I'm asking you if you support it, and you identify it as a win. Your repeated attempts to bend or disregard the inconvenient facts and shift the language are telling. I'm probably wasting my virtual breath, but take a step back and think of all the horrible things you could accomplish with the logic you just tried to use at the end of your post. If progressive cities that have tremendous wealth want to designate themselves as sanctuary cities for migrants and asylum-seekers then absolutely we should be sending migrants there. As much as you want to bend or disregard the inconvenient facts these migrants are not being kidnapped or forced to get on the buses, the fact is they are going voluntarily and are happy to go. The people in a tizzy are the leaders of the cities that were hoping they could get by on virtue signaling how welcoming they are without actually having to welcome anyone. 50 migrants die in the back of a semi-truck trailer - move along nothing to see here. Things are fine at the border 50 migrants get sent to an incredibly wealthy community where they receive an outpouring of support - omg the horror! this needs to end! Yeah I think it's disgusting that these political stunts are what's finally garnering some attention and mobilization for action. It's reprehensible how people were happy to ignore things until it personally inconvenienced them. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States41984 Posts
On September 18 2022 04:44 BlackJack wrote: If progressive cities that have tremendous wealth want to designate themselves as sanctuary cities for migrants and asylum-seekers then absolutely we should be sending migrants there. As much as you want to bend or disregard the inconvenient facts these migrants are not being kidnapped or forced to get on the buses, the fact is they are going voluntarily and are happy to go. The people in a tizzy are the leaders of the cities that were hoping they could get by on virtue signaling how welcoming they are without actually having to welcome anyone. 50 migrants die in the back of a semi-truck trailer - move along nothing to see here. Things are fine at the border 50 migrants get sent to an incredibly wealthy community where they receive an outpouring of support - omg the horror! this needs to end! Yeah I think it's disgusting that these political stunts are what's finally garnering some attention and mobilization for action. It's reprehensible how people were happy to ignore things until it personally inconvenienced them. Migrants dying because the cartel affiliated coyote they paid to get them across the border did a shitty job is obviously tragic but it’s also hard to fix because it’s somewhat outside of our control. We can’t legislate safer coyotes. Migrants getting fucked over by our own government as part of an intentional policy to pwn the libs is less evil but also obviously more outrageous because it’s something that we (Americans) are doing on purpose. It’s not that it’s fine when someone else does it, that’s a ridiculous straw man. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
Or (and we can wait for further reporting to clarify) we can consider some of the other claims. That they were put on the plane under false pretenses, with promise that provisions had already been arranged at their destination. That records with government agencies were falsified in their names in order to make it more likely they would get deported. Some of this might even be illegal (although unlikely to ever be prosecuted), all of it is despicable. Of course, I don’t know which claims are true, but neither do the people celebrating this as a win. Wasn’t it, like, a private charter plane? Why wouldn’t you just buy them plane tickets if this was all on the level? The range of possibilities here is from “absurd cartoon villain scheme that’s ultimately pretty harmless” to “kidnapping undesirables because your constituents like to see them suffer.” If you see something praiseworthy in that range, you and I have very different ideas of what qualities in a man deserve praise. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
So, you have someone who comes to you with an emergency. You have two people in a position to do something to help. Say neither one is actually interested in doing anything about it. But one of them makes a big show out of the fact that they don't give a shit, and kicks the emergency to the other person. The other person wasn't even in the room when this occurred, they were minding their own business. Regardless of what happens, are we really applauding the first person? Or is it about the catharsis of shitting on the doorstep of someone you hate? Because so far, Republicans have made no mystery of hating Democrats for sport. | ||
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KwarK
United States41984 Posts
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