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On September 18 2022 05:58 ChristianS wrote:
Are we supposed to believe all that happened here is DeSantis just found a bunch of homeless immigrants in San Antonio and said “wanna see where Jaws was filmed? I’ll buy you a plane ticket!”? If so, who cares? Florida taxpayers, maybe? I mean don’t get me wrong, it’s fucking weird, bit of a serial killer vibe to go to another state to pick up homeless people off the street and pay them to sate your bizarre desires, but at the end of the day we’re not learning anything about DeSantis we didn’t already know.
Or (and we can wait for further reporting to clarify) we can consider some of the other claims. That they were put on the plane under false pretenses, with promise that provisions had already been arranged at their destination. That records with government agencies were falsified in their names in order to make it more likely they would get deported. Some of this might even be illegal (although unlikely to ever be prosecuted), all of it is despicable.
Of course, I don’t know which claims are true, but neither do the people celebrating this as a win. Wasn’t it, like, a private charter plane? Why wouldn’t you just buy them plane tickets if this was all on the level? The range of possibilities here is from “absurd cartoon villain scheme that’s ultimately pretty harmless” to “kidnapping undesirables because your constituents like to see them suffer.” If you see something praiseworthy in that range, you and I have very different ideas of what qualities in a man deserve praise.
I didn't hear of the reports that the MV migrants were misled when I made my post calling it a win-win and I've since said that would be obviously wrong if true. Are you focusing on only the 50 MV migrants out of the many thousands because the reports of them being misled is your only objection to the policy of sending migrants to sanctuary cities?
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On September 18 2022 06:45 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2022 05:58 ChristianS wrote:
Are we supposed to believe all that happened here is DeSantis just found a bunch of homeless immigrants in San Antonio and said “wanna see where Jaws was filmed? I’ll buy you a plane ticket!”? If so, who cares? Florida taxpayers, maybe? I mean don’t get me wrong, it’s fucking weird, bit of a serial killer vibe to go to another state to pick up homeless people off the street and pay them to sate your bizarre desires, but at the end of the day we’re not learning anything about DeSantis we didn’t already know.
Or (and we can wait for further reporting to clarify) we can consider some of the other claims. That they were put on the plane under false pretenses, with promise that provisions had already been arranged at their destination. That records with government agencies were falsified in their names in order to make it more likely they would get deported. Some of this might even be illegal (although unlikely to ever be prosecuted), all of it is despicable.
Of course, I don’t know which claims are true, but neither do the people celebrating this as a win. Wasn’t it, like, a private charter plane? Why wouldn’t you just buy them plane tickets if this was all on the level? The range of possibilities here is from “absurd cartoon villain scheme that’s ultimately pretty harmless” to “kidnapping undesirables because your constituents like to see them suffer.” If you see something praiseworthy in that range, you and I have very different ideas of what qualities in a man deserve praise. I didn't hear of the reports that the MV migrants were misled when I made my post calling it a win-win and I've since said that would be obviously wrong if true. Are you focusing on only the 50 MV migrants out of the many thousands because the reports of them being misled is your only objection to the policy of sending migrants to sanctuary cities?
I mean a lot’s getting conflated here. I’m opposed to forced migration, if that’s the question. Frequently in cities with big homeless populations locals like the idea “what if we just bus them all someplace else?” which is basically the platonic ideal of a NIMBY impulse. If every city did that everybody would spend a lot of money on Greyhounds and wind up with the same number of homeless people on average. I mean come on, you’re kinda libertarian, don’t you find the idea of the government deciding which city or state people will live in creepy?
Near as I can tell, “sanctuary city” just means “we don’t let our cops use immigration status to threaten people into compliance” (and I bet they still do sometimes). That doesn’t seem directly relevant to, say, distribution of refugees being granted asylum? But sure, if we’re officially housing, say, Afghan or Ukrainian refugees we ought to distribute them evenly. Same if we’re granting asylum to central or South American refugees. But that’s if we’re explicitly providing someone with housing, etc. Presumably a lot of people we’re talking about are either undocumented (i.e. not officially being provided anything from the government) or asylum seekers (i.e. they have legal status pending the outcome of their case, but they’re also not being provided housing or anything), in which case, no, I don’t think we should be allowed to force them to go anywhere they don’t want to.
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So, this video is roaming out and about now, with actual details about what the migrants in question are being subject to. They were being set up to fail, by state Republicans flouting national immigration law and essentially defrauding people who were trying to enter the country legally. When the Republicans in charge and the voters do their grandstanding about how people need to enter the country legally, just remember what a shitshow our actual immigration system is, and that even in light of that, Republicans don't actually want you coming in. Legal or not.
They aren't just being used as a political prop, the Republicans are using these would-be migrants as a fucking hand-grenade. Milk them for what use they can get and then try to deport them anyway.
What's the win, again? Oh, yeah, the usual.
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weird that's a shorter version of that clip then I've seen, it missed the part where she talks about how they will take care of everyone single one of the migrants, Likely just hours before they put them on a bus and sent them away. It's hard to take anything she says seriously she's obviously enraged she has to deal with this.
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I mean, if you watch the video, she describes how each of the immigrants was given a fake address somewhere else in the country, and that if they aren't able to get there then they automatically get deported... So a couple of things:
1) If indeed she's just punting them off, as you're claiming, I wanna see something to back that up. Because right now, it seems like there's an actually good fucking reason to put them back on a bus, so they actually have a shot of staying in the country after the Republicans' fuckery.
2) If Republicans are willing to ship them out on a private plane, they should have no problems with democrats putting them on a bus. They started this whole mess.
The Right has no moral leg to stand on. Don't pretend they do.
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Well again I don't actually believe anything she says, I've got no reason to. I understand why you believe her, she's saying exactly what you want to hear.
But assuming the address thing is true its possible some DHS or official who handles the mountains of paper work did do something improper, Maybe even illegal, Not sure not a lawyer.
I think they coulda splurged for a plane if they are indeed trying to get one or more of them to the office in Tacoma Washington though I'm not sure if that bus is gonna make it to all the "fake addresses" at bus speed.
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If the fake address thing is true, you have no reason not to believe her. All of her actions would be consistent with helping the migrants. There would be no hypocrisy. But you assume it's not true, for reasons you have not made clear. And what matters is not whether someone in an office somewhere made a malicious move or an honest mistake, the problem is that having a listed address that's all the way across the country when you're not even a citizen yet is a problem that needs to be addressed, and in this case that's not by filing paperwork and waiting 3-5 business days.
And also, why shouldn't she be enraged that she has to deal with this? It's petty, inhumane, and possibly criminal. Would you want to deal with someone stealing your car, even if you knew you'd get it back? Why should they be cool and composed about this? I'll give you a hint: re-evaluate who you think she's mad at.
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On September 15 2022 06:10 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 06:04 Slydie wrote:On September 15 2022 04:12 NewSunshine wrote:
I've noticed that Conservatives are leaning into their victim complexes more than ever. From "we are all domestic terrorists" to Hannity's stroll down the memory lane of crime, to basically every time Tucker Carlson opens his mouth. They think if they exaggerate all the shit that people are saying about them, people will backtrack and show pity or something. "Those stinky Democrats are being so mean to me, they called me by my name".
Of course, the scary part of just admitting everything out loud is that when your brainwashed followers don't bat an eye, you're basically home-free at that point. They're literally calling to instate Christian Nationalism through the use of violence and by ignoring the will of the voters and usurping power for themselves. And at this point the Republican voters don't question it. They're on board. I finally got a true US conservative to discuss with me. I reached out in a very polite way and got some interesting points of view. One of them was he never saw the US as a democracy, and regarded "dictatorship of a majority" as a horrible thing which was in the way of abolishing slavery. I tried to say that minority rule is worse, but it was no way to get through, especially as the DEMs currently has triple power. On the flip side, he did not regard the January 7th incident a conservative event, and he did regard parts of the far right as a danger to his values, especially autharian leaders taking away individual freedom. Sorry I did not have the patience to continue the discussion, but I feel very happy that we got a sensible conversation going! If he doesn't view America as a real democracy and fears the dictatorship of the majority, does that mean he would support election reform, most notably a removal of FPTP to turn the US into a multi party system?
Sorry for the insert, but I'd like to answer this.
He is a CONSERVATIVE, meaning traditions and the constitution are sacred to him. Election reform and a multi-party system would be profoundly against his beliefs of what the US is. For him, the senators should really be appointed instead of elected, like they once were.
Of course, that conservatives like himself gets more power than they should is a nice bonus they won't say out loud, but the Democrats have a fighting chance and currently won, so that was completely unproblematic to him.
We did not get into the benefits and limitations of multi-party parlaments, it is very complicated after all.
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So I accepted that she's telling the truth about addresses for our conversation, if that was unclear, apologies. I Think she's an enraged local(whom I think is a actually a lawyer)who is out of her mind with rage, but not for the reasons you cite.
She's upset yes, much like you and others on the forum are, But she's upset for another reason, She's upset because these folks are on her door step. Her community cannot virtue signal their way outa this one, She is enraged at the fact that either SHE or someone else has to defend the insane hypocrisy of her and her ilk. As for you I think your more genuine, that being said I doubt you live in MV so its unlikely you had any first had issues with this.
So the next obvious thing to address is the inhumane accusations. Its real simple, what's more inhumane giving people false hope that if they migrate 2000-3000 miles they will get jobs, healthcare, housing. Whom have to make the unreal journey that literally none of us have can appreciate where the only deaths we see are counted on the border or near the border or inside the us not to mention the rapes/drug trafficking or the fact that the people spend their entire life's worth to hire a "guide" or a "coyote" to get here.
Or Sending 50 people on a private plane to MV one of the richest places on the planet in a state that considers it self a sanctuary state(I think ChistianS gave the weakest example of a sanctuary City I've ever heard earlier)
Also I forget who said it but I'm not going back in the thread, but I'd guess a libertarian's opinion of this would be much different then what's being represented here. They'd likely believe in open borders(for econ reasons) and no social safety net. Personally I like the idea of the social safety net and strong borders.
And to respond to your question from the first post you made -
@newsunshine "What's the win, again? Oh, yeah, the usual."
The win is you, Other folks here, Democrats in general and even some further left folks(but not all real leftys) are talking about the issues at the US border, the issues that sadly the republicans have been talking about for as long as I can remember. A small dusting of it in left or democrat area's is enough to provoke huge discussion.
But hey, in the end, maybe you think it was terrible, and everyone who was flown or bussed to liberal or democratic area's should have been forced to stay in the gulag that is republican states.
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On September 18 2022 08:03 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2022 06:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 18 2022 05:58 ChristianS wrote:
Are we supposed to believe all that happened here is DeSantis just found a bunch of homeless immigrants in San Antonio and said “wanna see where Jaws was filmed? I’ll buy you a plane ticket!”? If so, who cares? Florida taxpayers, maybe? I mean don’t get me wrong, it’s fucking weird, bit of a serial killer vibe to go to another state to pick up homeless people off the street and pay them to sate your bizarre desires, but at the end of the day we’re not learning anything about DeSantis we didn’t already know.
Or (and we can wait for further reporting to clarify) we can consider some of the other claims. That they were put on the plane under false pretenses, with promise that provisions had already been arranged at their destination. That records with government agencies were falsified in their names in order to make it more likely they would get deported. Some of this might even be illegal (although unlikely to ever be prosecuted), all of it is despicable.
Of course, I don’t know which claims are true, but neither do the people celebrating this as a win. Wasn’t it, like, a private charter plane? Why wouldn’t you just buy them plane tickets if this was all on the level? The range of possibilities here is from “absurd cartoon villain scheme that’s ultimately pretty harmless” to “kidnapping undesirables because your constituents like to see them suffer.” If you see something praiseworthy in that range, you and I have very different ideas of what qualities in a man deserve praise. I didn't hear of the reports that the MV migrants were misled when I made my post calling it a win-win and I've since said that would be obviously wrong if true. Are you focusing on only the 50 MV migrants out of the many thousands because the reports of them being misled is your only objection to the policy of sending migrants to sanctuary cities? I mean a lot’s getting conflated here. I’m opposed to forced migration, if that’s the question. Frequently in cities with big homeless populations locals like the idea “what if we just bus them all someplace else?” which is basically the platonic ideal of a NIMBY impulse. If every city did that everybody would spend a lot of money on Greyhounds and wind up with the same number of homeless people on average. I mean come on, you’re kinda libertarian, don’t you find the idea of the government deciding which city or state people will live in creepy? Near as I can tell, “sanctuary city” just means “we don’t let our cops use immigration status to threaten people into compliance” (and I bet they still do sometimes). That doesn’t seem directly relevant to, say, distribution of refugees being granted asylum? But sure, if we’re officially housing, say, Afghan or Ukrainian refugees we ought to distribute them evenly. Same if we’re granting asylum to central or South American refugees. But that’s if we’re explicitly providing someone with housing, etc. Presumably a lot of people we’re talking about are either undocumented (i.e. not officially being provided anything from the government) or asylum seekers (i.e. they have legal status pending the outcome of their case, but they’re also not being provided housing or anything), in which case, no, I don’t think we should be allowed to force them to go anywhere they don’t want to.
I'm not sure why there is an insistence on using words like forced, kidnapped, trafficked. There's videos on youtube where they interview the migrants and they say they know where their buses are going and that it's voluntary. If the criticism here is based on a premise that doesn't exist then it's not a good criticism.
There's 3 parties here
1. The xenophobic and racist Republicans that want to ship off their migrants from their overwhelmed border communities
2. The cities and their leaders where the migrants are being sent. Like Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot who says Chicago will continue to accept the migrants with open arms
3. The migrants themselves who obviously wouldn't mind a free bus ride away from the racist old Republicans border communities and to a progressive city like Chicago that will welcome them with open arms
So again, how is this not a win-win-win? Every party benefits. I really don't see the issue.
I can see an argument to be made where the mayor of Chicago is actually full of shit and she just wants to be able to say they will accept the migrants with open arms without actually having to accept them with open arms. Like if she doesn't want them in her city any more than the racist Republicans want them in their city. It would explain why some have been bussed out of Chicago to the suburbs. Wait a minute...
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On September 18 2022 19:01 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2022 08:03 ChristianS wrote:On September 18 2022 06:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 18 2022 05:58 ChristianS wrote:
Are we supposed to believe all that happened here is DeSantis just found a bunch of homeless immigrants in San Antonio and said “wanna see where Jaws was filmed? I’ll buy you a plane ticket!”? If so, who cares? Florida taxpayers, maybe? I mean don’t get me wrong, it’s fucking weird, bit of a serial killer vibe to go to another state to pick up homeless people off the street and pay them to sate your bizarre desires, but at the end of the day we’re not learning anything about DeSantis we didn’t already know.
Or (and we can wait for further reporting to clarify) we can consider some of the other claims. That they were put on the plane under false pretenses, with promise that provisions had already been arranged at their destination. That records with government agencies were falsified in their names in order to make it more likely they would get deported. Some of this might even be illegal (although unlikely to ever be prosecuted), all of it is despicable.
Of course, I don’t know which claims are true, but neither do the people celebrating this as a win. Wasn’t it, like, a private charter plane? Why wouldn’t you just buy them plane tickets if this was all on the level? The range of possibilities here is from “absurd cartoon villain scheme that’s ultimately pretty harmless” to “kidnapping undesirables because your constituents like to see them suffer.” If you see something praiseworthy in that range, you and I have very different ideas of what qualities in a man deserve praise. I didn't hear of the reports that the MV migrants were misled when I made my post calling it a win-win and I've since said that would be obviously wrong if true. Are you focusing on only the 50 MV migrants out of the many thousands because the reports of them being misled is your only objection to the policy of sending migrants to sanctuary cities? I mean a lot’s getting conflated here. I’m opposed to forced migration, if that’s the question. Frequently in cities with big homeless populations locals like the idea “what if we just bus them all someplace else?” which is basically the platonic ideal of a NIMBY impulse. If every city did that everybody would spend a lot of money on Greyhounds and wind up with the same number of homeless people on average. I mean come on, you’re kinda libertarian, don’t you find the idea of the government deciding which city or state people will live in creepy? Near as I can tell, “sanctuary city” just means “we don’t let our cops use immigration status to threaten people into compliance” (and I bet they still do sometimes). That doesn’t seem directly relevant to, say, distribution of refugees being granted asylum? But sure, if we’re officially housing, say, Afghan or Ukrainian refugees we ought to distribute them evenly. Same if we’re granting asylum to central or South American refugees. But that’s if we’re explicitly providing someone with housing, etc. Presumably a lot of people we’re talking about are either undocumented (i.e. not officially being provided anything from the government) or asylum seekers (i.e. they have legal status pending the outcome of their case, but they’re also not being provided housing or anything), in which case, no, I don’t think we should be allowed to force them to go anywhere they don’t want to. I'm not sure why there is an insistence on using words like forced, kidnapped, trafficked. There's videos on youtube where they interview the migrants and they say they know where their buses are going and that it's voluntary. If the criticism here is based on a premise that doesn't exist then it's not a good criticism. There's 3 parties here 1. The xenophobic and racist Republicans that want to ship off their migrants from their overwhelmed border communities 2. The cities and their leaders where the migrants are being sent. Like Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot who says Chicago will continue to accept the migrants with open arms 3. The migrants themselves who obviously wouldn't mind a free bus ride away from the racist old Republicans border communities and to a progressive city like Chicago that will welcome them with open arms So again, how is this not a win-win-win? Every party benefits. I really don't see the issue. I can see an argument to be made where the mayor of Chicago is actually full of shit and she just wants to be able to say they will accept the migrants with open arms without actually having to accept them with open arms. Like if she doesn't want them in her city any more than the racist Republicans want them in their city. It would explain why some have been bussed out of Chicago to the suburbs. Wait a minute...
I think Chicago has a point that they should have been notified. Even if I say I want to reform my house but don't have bricks, if you show up tomorrow with a truckload of bricks I am not going to be happy, because I didn't have time to prepare anything. I'm probably busy doing other stuff and have no storage space for a truckload of bricks...
Other than that, if what you claim is what actually happened, I agree it's a win/win. But seeing as Fox is cawing about pwning the libs and a win/win doesn't pwn libs, I have serious doubts about your version of the narrative.
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@Acrofales are you comparing human beings to bricks? disgusting.
I'm pretty sure border towns don't get a call before folks enter their jurisdiction.
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United States24768 Posts
What's wrong with comparing human beings to bricks?
I'm also surprised to still be seeing the argument that people sneaking into the usa don't provide advance notice, so border states don't need to provide advance notice before sneaking people into other states. Let's be honest about the reason why no advance notice is provided...
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On September 18 2022 22:12 micronesia wrote:
What's wrong with comparing human beings to bricks?
I'm also surprised to still be seeing the argument that people sneaking into the usa don't provide advance notice, so border states don't need to provide advance notice before sneaking people into other states. Let's be honest about the reason why no advance notice is provided...
Presumably because they wouldn't be allowed to stay?
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I have a problem with human beings being used as chess pieces for political reasons but I also have a problem with the insane hypocrisy of these “sanctuary city” democrats politicians. For them its easy to sit back in their ivory towers and say how much of a humanitarian they are and that they are willing to accept all migrants knowing that they’re hundreds or thousands of miles away from the problem and they know the likely hood of it coming to their doorstep is low. Until one day it actually does and now it’s full damage control. It’s very sad all around, especially for the migrants who are trying to seek a better life
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Everyone knows the problem. 1/2 of people refuse to acknowledge the problem. Instead they cheer lead the problem until its a problem they can see, Then its a real problem.
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Northern Ireland26540 Posts
On September 18 2022 23:00 Taelshin wrote:
Everyone knows the problem. 1/2 of people refuse to acknowledge the problem. Instead they cheer lead the problem until its a problem they can see, Then its a real problem.
What specifically is the problem?
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On September 18 2022 22:07 Taelshin wrote:
@Acrofales are you comparing human beings to bricks? disgusting.
I'm pretty sure border towns don't get a call before folks enter their jurisdiction.
Hiya, snowflake, ever heard of a metaphor? But no. I'm not going to let you deflect that so easily. You obviously are smart enought to recognize how the analogy reflects on the situation we were discussing, it just doesn't fit nicely into your little story, so instead of addressing it, you deflect. Because of course you do, it's what good little "republicans" do when faced with uncomfortable arguments.
As to your other point about advance warning: LEGAL immigrants provide ample warning. Illegal immigrants obviously don't. But do you really want to go there? It is, after all, ILLEGAL. So if your equivocating illegal immigration with whatever deSantis did there... well... I guess you want him prosecuted as a coyote? I'm all in agreement there!
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United States43868 Posts
On September 18 2022 23:29 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2022 22:07 Taelshin wrote:
@Acrofales are you comparing human beings to bricks? disgusting.
I'm pretty sure border towns don't get a call before folks enter their jurisdiction.
Hiya, snowflake, ever heard of a metaphor? But no. I'm not going to let you deflect that so easily. You obviously are smart enought to recognize how the analogy reflects on the situation we were discussing, it just doesn't fit nicely into your little story, so instead of addressing it, you deflect. Because of course you do, it's what good little "republicans" do when faced with uncomfortable arguments. As to your other point about advance warning: LEGAL immigrants provide ample warning. Illegal immigrants obviously don't. But do you really want to go there? It is, after all, ILLEGAL. So if your equivocating illegal immigration with whatever deSantis did there... well... I guess you want him prosecuted as a coyote? I'm all in agreement there!
Showing up on the US side of the border and claiming asylum is the legal way to do it.
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EPT
