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Right no open borders of course, that's why the left and democrats are fuming mad. They've been staunch border hawks for years and don't understand why those dastardly right winger's are undermining their strong border policy.
It's nice to pretend sometimes but we all know what this is. This political maneuver/stunt(call it what you want) has brought immense focus on the problem that republican's have been yelling about for years, Well before Biden, Trump and even Obama. If we're lucky the politicians will wise up and come up with a working immigration policy, not gonna hold my breath.
What I can't understand truly is why Democrats are reacting the way they are. The solution is obvious. Accept these folks with open arms and request that all future asylum seekers and migrants be sent to their cities. Turn a massive loss into a win just before midterms, Maintain your control and help people at the same time. win win....win?
PS EDIT - I'm totally willing to go along with parts of the right and or some big agri are pushing for loose boarder policy. And that there are parts of the left that are for strong borders. This is true and I have no issue saying it. The inability of folks on this forum to actually call a spade a spade when its on their perceived side is unfortunate.
edit#2 - Kwark if your last post is indicative of your actual belief's we might actually agree completely on this issue which would be Awesome. If you feel like it id be interested in you laying out more of your thoughts on the whole issue of immigration and borders, security, illegal vs legal ect.
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United States42656 Posts
They have been border hawks for years. Both parties have funneled billions into securing the border and border forces have steadily increased under both parties. The difference is the rhetoric, conservatives are super into virtue signaling on this one, they've turned it into part of their culture war narrative.
They want to build giant monuments to how much they care about immigration, regardless of efficacy. They want to build cruelty into the system to punish people who have the audacity to claim asylum in the US, regardless of the legality and merits of the individual cases. They make it weirdly racial with bizarre lies about invasions and swarms of ISIS militants on Fox News. They take any basic humane treatment of migrants, such as providing children of migrants with soap, as a personal affront.
It's pure virtue signaling, they want to be seen by their base, which is made up of just about the worst of humanity, as being as cruel as possible. That's the difference.
The left don't want these people any more than the right do, it's just the left want to process them in a humane and legal way while still ultimately rejecting them. The left want a functioning border that is well funded, equipped with sufficient facilities to house the new arrivals while they're processed, and sufficient judges to process and deport them in a timely manner. And while they're within our care to treat them like human beings because how we treat others reflects upon us.
The right, in this as in all things, view government dysfunction as the point. They don't want a working system because a working system discredits their world view of "government bad". Every time an asylum case is judged to be without merit and the claimant deported, as almost all are, their lies become just a little bit less credible. So they undermine the system, they divert funding from things that work to things that don't, they focus on the wrong borders, on the wrong immigrants, they focus more on building the narrative than reality.
This is a classic example of it. The border states receive a colossal amount of government money to manage this problem because the border states are, as the name suggests, on the border. They act like they're injured by this while an increasing number of their residents are on the Federal government payroll and an increasing number of Federal dollars are spent there. One of the companies within the area I'm responsible for is on the border and our Q4 last year was saved by a huge contract with the Fed for an Afghan refugee camp which brought in a shitload of money and jobs. They know this, they cash the checks. But they also know their electorate is made up of pieces of shit and that they need to virtue signal so they engage in these stunts because sending migrants from the place where the government spent all their money setting up facilities for them to somewhere with no facilities is apparently owning the libs.
Stories like this are the ones that show the difference.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/06/29/trump-deported-immigrants-biden-return-496786
+ Show Spoiler [quoted parts in case people get paywal…] +A white delivery driver born and raised in the tiny Alabama town of Smiths Station, Jason, 43, is a laid-back evangelical Christian, and the kind of man who takes the time to ask a customer how her baby carriage turned out and coo over its color.
About 15 years ago, a few years after he moved to the northern suburbs of Atlanta, he met Cecilia at work as he began a shift unloading packages.
She was petite — at 5-foot-4, just an inch shorter than him, with big brown eyes. He was instantly smitten.
Family separation
Los Angeles Times
Whenever he spotted her tugging at a heavy box, he would haul the package off the semitrailer.
Day after day, they sat together on their 15-minute breaks, sharing pizza and chicken wings. Sometimes he would bring her dandelions from the side of the road. Occasionally she let him rub her shoulders.
But she didn’t offer much about her background — all he knew was she was from somewhere near Guadalajara, Mexico — and after two years he had failed to persuade her out on a date.
Eventually, a Mexican co-worker told him: “She’s illegal.”
He didn’t care.
When they eventually started dating, Cecilia told him that she had crossed the border into California several times in her early 20s. Immigration officials had caught her twice, first after crossing in Calexico and then in San Ysidro.
“Why would you want to be with me, knowing I’m like that?” she asked.
“I love you for who you are,” he told her.
After a year of dating, Jason proposed. They got married in his uncle’s backyard. Then came Ashton. Cecilia gave up her job cleaning hotels and settled into life as a stay-at-home mom in this affluent Atlanta suburb, making Ashton pancakes and grits for breakfast and taking him for strolls to the local park.
“You’re not a criminal,” Jason tried to reassure her. “You don’t have to worry about it.”
Jason had faith that the Trump administration would distinguish between good and bad immigrants. Cecilia had never even gotten a traffic ticket.
“In my mind, bad hombres were people who did bad things,” he said. “We figured that he was going to get rid of the people we didn’t want.”
So he voted for Trump, assuring himself and his wife that the ultimate decision was in God’s hands.
A few days after taking office, Trump signed an executive order that expanded Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s focus to most of the 11 million immigrants in the U.S. illegally, regardless of whether they had a criminal record. For the last few years, the couple had met with ICE once a year to renew Cecilia’s work permit. Under the Obama administration, ICE granted renewable work permits to many law-abiding immigrants who had been in the country at least five years.
But with their next appointment in November 2017, Jason and Cecilia had to decide: Should she go and risk being deported? Or should they skip the meeting, risking the possibility that ICE agents might knock on their door?
Ashton was 4. More than anything, Cecilia wanted to spare him the trauma of watching her be hauled away.
They decided to go to the ICE appointment with a plane ticket and a plan. If you allow us to spend Christmas and New Year’s together, they told the immigration agent, Cecilia would self-deport in January.
They were not sure it would work. As they waited at a cubicle, a woman sobbed as she was given a few moments to say goodbye to her young children. But the ICE agent agreed. ut God wanted his family to be together, he felt sure. Eventually, immigration officials would consider that Cecilia was married to an American citizen and had a child in the U.S.
“Mommy will be home soon,” he promised Ashton.
Not long after Jason got back to the U.S., their attorney told him Cecilia was permanently barred from returning.
It should not have been a surprise — Cecilia had lived in the U.S. for nearly two decades after being caught twice illegally crossing the border — but Jason was crushed when the lawyer said there was nothing more she could do. They would have to wait 10 years before they could ask for permission to reapply to enter the country. In the summer, Ashton would visit Cecilia while Jason tried to figure out how to bring her back. But there was a setback in July, not long after Ashton arrived in Mérida. Cecilia was rubbing lotion on Ashton when she noticed a protrusion under his rib cage. After snapping a picture and texting it to Jason, she took Ashton to a hospital. Ashton had a Wilms tumor, a cancerous mass in his left kidney the size of a cantaloupe. Jason flew to Mexico and rushed Ashton back to the U.S. for treatment. After surgery to remove Ashton’s kidney, there was radiation therapy and chemotherapy. Ashton screamed every time he had blood taken. “Why isn’t mommy here?” he asked. “The government doesn’t want her here,” Jason tried to explain. “Mommy messed up years ago and we’re trying to get her back.” Frantic, Cecilia considered trying to cross the border again. But Jason urged her to follow the law. God will reward us, he said. They applied for humanitarian parole, assuming everything would be resolved in a few days. Even the most hard-hearted immigration official, they figured, would make an exception for a 5-year-old with cancer. Nearly two months passed before they got word: Parole was denied. ![[image loading]](https://www.trbimg.com/img-5cdb2de7/turbine/la-1557868003-8tof5rk8td-snap-image) Ashton's kindergarten class made this booklet and sent it to the White House in hopes of helping his mother. Chris Aluka Berry / For The Times
She was known to the government, was regularly checking in, wasn't working illegally, was married to a US citizen and mother to a US citizen, her only labour was being a good wife and mother. Obama's policy that was repeatedly decried as "open borders" was to have her check in once per year but otherwise do nothing because there was no crime worth dealing with here. When conservatives bitch about open borders, that's what they're talking about. Common sense immigration policy. It's not even all that ethical, there were still shitty camps under Obama, he's no saint, but he wasn't deliberately vindictive. Conservative policy is to be vindictive because their base eats up cruelty like they get off on it. Conservatives spontaneously ejaculate when they learn that the illegal immigrant they deported couldn't be by the side of her child with cancer. That's just the kind of people they are.
This shit is why people get upset when DeSantis et al get on their podiums and brag about how they tricked some immigrants into going to a city that lacks the facilities to take care of them. It's not that it's cruel, though it's that too, it's that they like that it's cruel. It's that the cruelty is the point. It's that they're deeply sick and that every time they do this they remind us that there is a large subset of the American population that is deeply sick. That cheers for family separations for no purpose other than to punish people for having the audacity to need our charity. That cheers for childhood cancer. That will make the argument with a straight face that forcing minors to sleep on cold concrete floors in overcrowded cells intended for a fraction of that number is fine and that toothpaste is a luxury item that they don't need to give children under their care.
The argument in US politics has never been between open borders and closed borders. It's been between legal enforcement of bipartisan immigration policy including proper treatment of asylum seekers (who do not and never have made up a significant percentage of immigrants, seriously, check) and senseless cruelty. Neither side wants open borders, but both pander to their base. One base wants to focus on the issues, the other on feelings.
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On September 19 2022 08:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 08:46 NewSunshine wrote:
Ah, the open borders strawman. Good to have you back. Because the only options are either the insanely exclusionary system we currently have, or no system whatsoever. That lays a good groundwork for an honest good faith discussion. Also the idea that the pro-labour working class movement is somehow pro-immigration of unskilled labour, despite the deeply protectionist roots of left wing ideology, while the neo-liberal capitalist class are somehow threatened by the idea of undercutting native labour. It's a fucking weird straw man. Like who the fuck do they think benefits from illegal immigration?
Yeah I’d say I am fairly anti immigration due to labor reasons. Anyone who is bringing something we need gets a thumbs up from me. But often times that “need” is from companies looking for a cheaper source of labor. Until our labor is being fairly compensated, I see no reason to let immigration be a source of giving. I wouldn’t support any form of immigration other than asylums for the sake of being nice. And it’s because of poorly paid labor that I feel that way.
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United States42656 Posts
I also wonder if anyone else in this discussion is an immigrant to the US. I immigrated here 8 years ago. Anyone else?
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The numbers alone ought to give one pause in claiming these are mostly legitimate asylum seekers. Part of the (real) trafficking is training people on what to say when they encounter the authorities. Word has gotten around that if you can make it to the border, you have a very real shot at actually making it inside. I think it's still true that the single largest demographic encountered at the border are young men.
From what I recall DHS doesn't publish its estimates of how many people make it across the border illegally without being caught but it's reported to be in the hundreds of thousands a year.
That's what drives people, and that's why this administration bears so much responsibility for the crisis.
Not to re-tread old ground on this topic, because I know that the motivation to believe that almost everyone crossing is a legitimate asylum seeker is very strong, but most people, conservatives included, are not for turning away those with legitimate fears of violence at home. The problem is it's almost impossible to screen especially when the system is under the stress it is. And it's....implausible that over a hundred thousand people a month have a legitimate asylum claim. Obviously not everyone encountered makes a claim, true. Also recidivism has increased in the past two years. But that doesn't change the calculus much, because if they aren't seeking asylum and are simply migrants hoping to get in then they aren't nearly as sympathetic figures and the discussion around those individuals obviously veers away from what we've been discussing.
And that too ignores the huge drug trafficking problem. No, what's happening at the border is not simply a story of people fleeing oppression in central America. It's a more sad tale enabled by terrible leadership and policies. Biden ended remain in Mexico and wants to end Title 42 enforcement, although that's been tied up in court.
and we still have to think about the communities strained already.
+ Show Spoiler +
edit: I am reminded of how annoying it is to find statistics for recent years on this, I know that not all of the 100K+ people *each month* who the border patrol encounters at the border make an asylum claim but I can't find the exact number. I also can't find the exact estimate for the number of got-aways... But obviously whether those released in the US are technically making asylum claims or not the points above still stand. It's far more cruel to let the current travesty continue with the current incentives.
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Its a sad human interest story but the story never happens if she's never allowed into the country in the first place. I'm not sure what level of legal immigration is sustainable but illegal immigration should be looked on by the left and the right as a bad thing. Change the system if you can, but don't ignore the law because you don't like it. I think I pretty much agree with everything else roughly. I would lean into the neo-cons and neo-libs more. I think you said it in another page but the people who are most affected by this is the working class on both the left and right and obviously the souls who undertake the perilous journey.
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United States42656 Posts
On September 19 2022 11:26 Introvert wrote:The numbers alone ought to give one pause in claiming these are mostly legitimate asylum seekers. Part of the (real) trafficking is training people on what to say when they encounter the authorities. Word has gotten around that if you can make it to the border, you have a very real shot at actually making it inside. I think it's still true that the single largest demographic encountered at the border are young men. From what I recall DHS doesn't publish its estimates of how many people make it across the border illegally without being caught but it's reported to be in the hundreds of thousands a year. That's what drives people, and that's why this administration bears so much responsibility for the crisis. Not to re-tread old ground on this topic, because I know that the motivation to believe that almost everyone crossing is a legitimate asylum seeker is very strong, but most people, conservatives included, are not for turning away those with legitimate fears of violence at home. The problem is it's almost impossible to screen especially when the system is under the stress it is. And it's....implausible that over a hundred thousand people a month have a legitimate asylum claim. Obviously not everyone encountered makes a claim, true. Also recidivism has increased in the past two years. But that doesn't change the calculus much, because if they aren't seeking asylum and are simply migrants hoping to get in then they aren't nearly as sympathetic figures and the discussion around those individuals obviously veers away from what we've been discussing. And that too ignores the huge drug trafficking problem. No, what's happening at the border is not simply a story of people fleeing oppression in central America. It's a more sad tale enabled by terrible leadership and policies. Biden ended remain in Mexico and wants to end Title 42 enforcement, although that's been tied up in court. and we still have to think about the communities strained already. + Show Spoiler +
So presumably you support taking money away from vanity projects, from virtue signaling bussing, and from vindictive programs like rounding up non threatening long term illegals and want that money to be used for adequately equipping the border states to properly process and rule on immigration cases in a timely manner. More immigration judges, more immigration lawyers, more translators, less time in limbo between claiming asylum and having your case heard.
No more pissing away money on owning the libs when they could be working on the actual problem.
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United States42656 Posts
On September 19 2022 11:37 Taelshin wrote:
Its a sad human interest story but the story never happens if she's never allowed into the country in the first place. I'm not sure what level of legal immigration is sustainable but illegal immigration should be looked on by the left and the right as a bad thing. Change the system if you can, but don't ignore the law because you don't like it. I think I pretty much agree with everything else roughly. I would lean into the neo-cons and neo-libs more. I think you said it in another page but the people who are most affected by this is the working class on both the left and right and obviously the souls who undertake the perilous journey.
She wasn't allowed in, she got in, stayed under the radar, got married, and had a kid. The question was never whether she should be allowed to illegally enter the country, nobody wanted that. The question was whether depriving a US citizen of their mother was a good use of finite government immigration enforcement resources. No party invited her in. One party marked her low priority, flagged her for deportation if she broke the law, and told her to check in once per year. The other devoted resources to deporting someone who provided a net benefit to US society as a wife and a mother.
Just like nobody would oppose the wall if it were a workable cost effective way of solving the problem, people oppose it because it's ruinously expensive, does nothing to solve the problem (if anything makes it easier to get in due to all the extra roads you'd need to build along the border), and would take resources from programs that do work. Nobody supports open borders, one party supports solutions, one party supports virtue signaling to a base composed entirely of people without virtue.
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On September 19 2022 11:46 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 11:26 Introvert wrote:The numbers alone ought to give one pause in claiming these are mostly legitimate asylum seekers. Part of the (real) trafficking is training people on what to say when they encounter the authorities. Word has gotten around that if you can make it to the border, you have a very real shot at actually making it inside. I think it's still true that the single largest demographic encountered at the border are young men. From what I recall DHS doesn't publish its estimates of how many people make it across the border illegally without being caught but it's reported to be in the hundreds of thousands a year. That's what drives people, and that's why this administration bears so much responsibility for the crisis. Not to re-tread old ground on this topic, because I know that the motivation to believe that almost everyone crossing is a legitimate asylum seeker is very strong, but most people, conservatives included, are not for turning away those with legitimate fears of violence at home. The problem is it's almost impossible to screen especially when the system is under the stress it is. And it's....implausible that over a hundred thousand people a month have a legitimate asylum claim. Obviously not everyone encountered makes a claim, true. Also recidivism has increased in the past two years. But that doesn't change the calculus much, because if they aren't seeking asylum and are simply migrants hoping to get in then they aren't nearly as sympathetic figures and the discussion around those individuals obviously veers away from what we've been discussing. And that too ignores the huge drug trafficking problem. No, what's happening at the border is not simply a story of people fleeing oppression in central America. It's a more sad tale enabled by terrible leadership and policies. Biden ended remain in Mexico and wants to end Title 42 enforcement, although that's been tied up in court. and we still have to think about the communities strained already. + Show Spoiler + So presumably you support taking money away from vanity projects, from virtue signaling bussing, and from vindictive programs like rounding up non threatening long term illegals and want that money to be used for adequately equipping the border states to properly process and rule on immigration cases in a timely manner. More immigration judges, more immigration lawyers, more translators, less time in limbo between claiming asylum and having your case heard. No more pissing away money on owning the libs when they could be working on the actual problem.
Like I said a few pages ago, the stunt had a purpose, because for the past two years this problem has been basically ignored. It's not a matter of money at the border, it's a matter of policy and incentives.
But in terms of resources yes, I want more. Without looking to refresh my memory, I'm fairly certain even the Trump admin requested congress to give them more for all the things you listed. Just like in criminals justice, we know or are coming to know that timeliness may be just as important as severity. I'm not a "drop all legal immigration to zero" type of nationalist, though I think deciding who we let in could use an update.
So yes, I agree that the backlog we have is unacceptable, but I don't the publicity play was some great evil (and apparently the migrants involved knew exactly where they were going), so I think they have purpose. Like I said, far more people die or are abused before or while entering the US, and that's a policy problem that needs attention.
edit: to be clear I wouldn't use the label nationalist at all, I'm making a point
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That all sounds good lets go with that. Dem's could do that right now. I said it in another post but at least this has gotten people talking about the real issues even if it seems a little distasteful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the order of things. Person shows up at border, claims asylum, A huge % of those people are actually economic refugee's rather then actually escaping civil war or persecution. Then they are given a date to appear in front of an asylum judge, then a huge % of those people don't show up for that hearing right? I mean unless I had a legit claim I don't think id show up either so I'm not throwing shade at those people.
Enough border agents, judges, lawyers, translators on the border so that when you show up you get your hearing that day, lets go.
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United States42656 Posts
On September 19 2022 11:54 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 11:46 KwarK wrote:On September 19 2022 11:26 Introvert wrote:The numbers alone ought to give one pause in claiming these are mostly legitimate asylum seekers. Part of the (real) trafficking is training people on what to say when they encounter the authorities. Word has gotten around that if you can make it to the border, you have a very real shot at actually making it inside. I think it's still true that the single largest demographic encountered at the border are young men. From what I recall DHS doesn't publish its estimates of how many people make it across the border illegally without being caught but it's reported to be in the hundreds of thousands a year. That's what drives people, and that's why this administration bears so much responsibility for the crisis. Not to re-tread old ground on this topic, because I know that the motivation to believe that almost everyone crossing is a legitimate asylum seeker is very strong, but most people, conservatives included, are not for turning away those with legitimate fears of violence at home. The problem is it's almost impossible to screen especially when the system is under the stress it is. And it's....implausible that over a hundred thousand people a month have a legitimate asylum claim. Obviously not everyone encountered makes a claim, true. Also recidivism has increased in the past two years. But that doesn't change the calculus much, because if they aren't seeking asylum and are simply migrants hoping to get in then they aren't nearly as sympathetic figures and the discussion around those individuals obviously veers away from what we've been discussing. And that too ignores the huge drug trafficking problem. No, what's happening at the border is not simply a story of people fleeing oppression in central America. It's a more sad tale enabled by terrible leadership and policies. Biden ended remain in Mexico and wants to end Title 42 enforcement, although that's been tied up in court. and we still have to think about the communities strained already. + Show Spoiler + So presumably you support taking money away from vanity projects, from virtue signaling bussing, and from vindictive programs like rounding up non threatening long term illegals and want that money to be used for adequately equipping the border states to properly process and rule on immigration cases in a timely manner. More immigration judges, more immigration lawyers, more translators, less time in limbo between claiming asylum and having your case heard. No more pissing away money on owning the libs when they could be working on the actual problem. Like I said a few pages ago, the stunt had a purpose, because for the past two years this problem has been basically ignored. It's not a matter of money at the border, it's a matter of policy and incentives. But in terms of resources yes, I want more. Without looking to refresh my memory, I'm fairly certain even the Trump admin requested congress to give them more for all the things you listed. Just like in criminals justice, we know or are coming to know that timeliness may be just as important as severity. I'm not a "drop all legal immigration to zero" type of nationalist, though I think deciding who we let in could use an update. So yes, I agree that the backlog we have is unacceptable, but I don't the publicity play was some great evil (and apparently the migrants involved knew exactly where they were going), so I think they have purpose. Like I said, far more people die or are abused before or while entering the US, and that's a policy problem that needs attention. edit: to be clear I wouldn't use the label nationalist at all, I'm making a point
These places were selected because they're sanctuary cities which means places which don't comply with senselessly cruel treatment of immigrants. They were chosen to punish the people of those cities for daring to think they're above cruelty. It's part of the absurd culture war where you score points with the sick conservative base by harming whatever the enemy of the day is.
Conservative media rhetoric around the issue is clear and unapologetic. This was never about raising awareness or securing funding, it was about sending a message.
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United States42656 Posts
On September 19 2022 11:59 Taelshin wrote:
That all sounds good lets go with that. Dem's could do that right now. I said it in another post but at least this has gotten people talking about the real issues even if it seems a little distasteful.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the order of things. Person shows up at border, claims asylum, A huge % of those people are actually economic refugee's rather then actually escaping civil war or persecution. Then they are given a date to appear in front of an asylum judge, then a huge % of those people don't show up for that hearing right? I mean unless I had a legit claim I don't think id show up either so I'm not throwing shade at those people.
Enough border agents, judges, lawyers, translators on the border so that when you show up you get your hearing that day, lets go.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/04/factchecking-claims-about-asylum-grants-and-immigration-court-attendance/
As of fiscal year 2019, asylum applicants overall were reported to have waited an average of 1,030 days — nearly three years — for their cases to be decided, according to Syracuse University’s Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse, which collects and analyzes immigration data. A quarter of applicants waited even longer — 1,421 days, or nearly four years.
A study published last year in the University of Pennsylvania Law Review found that “88% of all immigrants in immigration court with completed or pending removal cases over the past eleven years attended all of their court hearings.” The analysis of government data also revealed that 95% of nondetained individuals who filed for asylum or other forms of relief from removal attended all of their court hearings over the same time period from 2008 to 2018, the authors said.
But the total for 2019 was <60,000 applicants, even including the 23,000 who didn't formally apply for asylum after their intake interview. Asylum seeking is just not how illegal immigrants get in. Study after study has shown that illegal immigrants are largely composed of legal immigrants who overstay visas. They get a plane here and just don't go home when they're meant to. That's the border they cross.
Asylum seekers is to illegal immigration what incest rape is to abortion. It's morally and logically simple, there's a clear right and wrong way to resolve it. It's also a tiny minority of cases that is given far too much attention in the national political argument. It's also an area where the Republicans continue to insist on being as depraved as possible because the depravity has always been the point.
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On September 19 2022 08:39 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2022 06:52 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 05:26 BlackJack wrote:You can speculate all you want but if you actually want to provide some evidence that people are being coerced or forced onto buses then I'm all ears. So far every news source says the migrants have been grateful and happy for the free rides. https://time.com/6211993/greg-abbott-migrants-buses-texas-dc-new-york/Fifteen migrants who spoke to TIME in Del Rio and Washington said they were thrilled for the option of free transportation, and were surprised to learn that Abbott’s intentions were less about accommodating them than inconveniencing his political opponents. “It’s great that he helped us,” says Oliver, a 26-year-old migrant, in an interview conducted at his arrival in Washington on July 26. https://us.cnn.com/2022/08/19/us/texas-migrants-bus-washington-dc-new-york/index.htmlMany, like Figueroa, are happy to leave Texas. The buses stop at several cities along the way to the Northeast, allowing migrants to disembark to reunite with friends and family in other locations. In Washington DC, Figueroa and her husband will meet with their friends.
"They want to go on the buses," said Valeria Wheeler, the executive director of Mission: Border Hope, a non-profit organization which serves the border community in Eagle Pass. "No one has been forced." The migrants themselves don't seem to be complaining. As is typical these days, it's others getting offended on their behalf over the horrors of having to endure such an arduous journey as a free air-conditioned bus ride which I'm sure makes the trek through Central America to get here in the first place seem like a cake walk. Nobody should be surprised here. Of course these mayors and governors can't just come out and say "stop sending migrants here, we don't want them and we don't have room for them." That's completely against their brand. So they have to try to channel their whining through invented narratives that migrants are being kidnapped/trafficked without any evidence. Seems like we’ve switched from the Desantis stunt to Abbott’s bus thing. So on that: If LA started a program where they’d give homeless people free bus tickets to San Diego, San Diego would be understandably peeved. The entire premise of the program is that programs to take care of homeless people are expensive, but if you pay a little for bus tickets you can shift that off your own ledger onto someone else’s. It’s a negative sum policy, obviously not universalizable, and I see no reason to praise the politician who came up with it. Nor would it expose some hypocrisy if San Diego’s mayor has made a bunch of public statements about how we should be compassionate and take good care of the homeless. But the homeless people who got the free ticket to San Diego might be happy enough about it. But also, they’re not just drains on public monies, they’re human beings with lives. How many people are there really that are going to happily climb on a bus to a completely new city with nothing but what they can carry on, and the only thing that was stopping them before was the price of the bus ticket? Without any form of coercion how many takers is LA actually gonna get? Just because you’re homeless doesn’t mean you don’t have any attachments. If they’re not giving you *any* way to survive on the other side of that trip, what’s in it for you? You’re still homeless, but now you don’t know anybody, you don’t know your way around, you don’t know where you can and can’t go without getting harassed by cops. The people who *do* take the free ticket might know somebody in San Diego, or be really eager to leave LA for some reason, but selfishness aside this policy probably won’t really solve LA’s homeless problem, either. By analogy the Desantis thing is closer to if I kidnapped a homeless person and dumped them on Leonardo DiCaprio’s front lawn with a bunch of cameras watching the whole thing. Leo certainly might feel obligated to take good care of the homeless person dumped on his lawn. Maybe this will wind up being the best thing that ever happened to him. This plan still makes me look like a piece of shit, especially if my whole purpose is to please my fans with antipathy for both homeless people and Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah maybe not many would want to get on the bus voluntary. Which is exactly how many have gotten on the bus. 2 million border encounters in the last year, how many as a percent have taken up the offer of free bus rides? maybe 1%? Less than that? I'm not sure why we need the homeless analogy. Is it negative-sum when you zoom out? Yes. But why should LA care about that? If they are successful at shifting them on to San Diego's ledger then good for them. If San Diego's mayor wants to pretend there isn't a homelessness problem in SoCal and dismiss the LA Mayor's concerns as uncompassionate whining then it absolutely makes them a hypocrite if they start whining when the homeless people show up in their town. We disagree on that one. Will it solve the larger problem? Probably not, but at least we see some action of Biden's officials meeting to address the issue and leaders declaring federal emergencies. Which seems to be more than what was happening when the immigration crisis was only affecting the red states. I don’t think finding negative sum ways to shift your problems onto others is praiseworthy. Even less so if you’re barely even addressing your own problem and mostly just making a publicity stunt out of it. And without knowing what specifically the smug liberals said it’s hard to know what you’re saying they’re hypocrites about. In the Martha’s Vineyard case the MV residents might have said a week ago “you should take care of the needy in your community.” Then the governor of Florida went and found a bunch of needy in Texas and flew them to Martha’s Vineyard, and their response was to… take care of them? While saying Florida and Texas are being assholes? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy. I don’t think you have to look that hard for evidence rich liberals talking about compassion don’t put their money where their mouth is, but for the present discussion maybe it would be more valuable to ask why exactly you’ve got an ax to grind on immigration. What problems is it causing, exactly? Are immigrants using public resources without paying taxes because they’re undocumented? Are they “taking our jobs”? We’re getting these vague references to “overwhelmed border communities” but overwhelmed by… what? Trump would probably say “crime” or “drugs” but those claims are frequently poorly substantiated. Not to say those communities don’t have crime or drug problems, but when the proposition is “let’s have Border Patrol brutalize asylum seekers more and maybe my kids won’t have drug problems” it’s both shameless and unlikely to achieve the desired effect. But maybe there are a bunch of asylum seekers who have good cases, but they wind up languishing in border towns for years before getting approved. And maybe it would be better if we dedicated some resources to processing their cases, approving them, and setting them up with assistance in different towns across the country instead of languishing in border towns waiting for their cases to be heard. Something tells me that’s not the outcome you’re hoping for, but if not then what?
They are overwhelmed with people. Washington DC declared a state of emergency over the migrants that were bussed in to them. The Governor of Massachusetts called in the National Guard to help with the 50 migrants sent to Martha's Vineyard. Meanwhile in El Paso 1,166 migrants were released onto the streets by the U.S. border control in the last 8 days.
After spending several days on the streets of Downtown El Paso, some migrants are finding it difficult to take care of basic human necessities like using the bathroom and taking showers.
With local shelters at capacity, many migrants are now forced to live on the street enduring heavy rains, high temperatures and little access to public restrooms.
Some El Paso residents tell ABC-7 the smell of human waste is overwhelming in the area.
https://kvia.com/top-stories/2022/09/13/migrants-released-on-the-streets-of-downtown-el-paso-struggle-to-find-bathrooms-and-showers/
If only people cared about the hundreds of migrants that are sleeping and shitting on the streets as much as they care about the 50 sent to Martha's vineyard that are receiving warm meals, hot showers and shelter.
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On September 19 2022 18:37 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 08:39 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2022 06:52 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 05:26 BlackJack wrote:You can speculate all you want but if you actually want to provide some evidence that people are being coerced or forced onto buses then I'm all ears. So far every news source says the migrants have been grateful and happy for the free rides. https://time.com/6211993/greg-abbott-migrants-buses-texas-dc-new-york/Fifteen migrants who spoke to TIME in Del Rio and Washington said they were thrilled for the option of free transportation, and were surprised to learn that Abbott’s intentions were less about accommodating them than inconveniencing his political opponents. “It’s great that he helped us,” says Oliver, a 26-year-old migrant, in an interview conducted at his arrival in Washington on July 26. https://us.cnn.com/2022/08/19/us/texas-migrants-bus-washington-dc-new-york/index.htmlMany, like Figueroa, are happy to leave Texas. The buses stop at several cities along the way to the Northeast, allowing migrants to disembark to reunite with friends and family in other locations. In Washington DC, Figueroa and her husband will meet with their friends.
"They want to go on the buses," said Valeria Wheeler, the executive director of Mission: Border Hope, a non-profit organization which serves the border community in Eagle Pass. "No one has been forced." The migrants themselves don't seem to be complaining. As is typical these days, it's others getting offended on their behalf over the horrors of having to endure such an arduous journey as a free air-conditioned bus ride which I'm sure makes the trek through Central America to get here in the first place seem like a cake walk. Nobody should be surprised here. Of course these mayors and governors can't just come out and say "stop sending migrants here, we don't want them and we don't have room for them." That's completely against their brand. So they have to try to channel their whining through invented narratives that migrants are being kidnapped/trafficked without any evidence. Seems like we’ve switched from the Desantis stunt to Abbott’s bus thing. So on that: If LA started a program where they’d give homeless people free bus tickets to San Diego, San Diego would be understandably peeved. The entire premise of the program is that programs to take care of homeless people are expensive, but if you pay a little for bus tickets you can shift that off your own ledger onto someone else’s. It’s a negative sum policy, obviously not universalizable, and I see no reason to praise the politician who came up with it. Nor would it expose some hypocrisy if San Diego’s mayor has made a bunch of public statements about how we should be compassionate and take good care of the homeless. But the homeless people who got the free ticket to San Diego might be happy enough about it. But also, they’re not just drains on public monies, they’re human beings with lives. How many people are there really that are going to happily climb on a bus to a completely new city with nothing but what they can carry on, and the only thing that was stopping them before was the price of the bus ticket? Without any form of coercion how many takers is LA actually gonna get? Just because you’re homeless doesn’t mean you don’t have any attachments. If they’re not giving you *any* way to survive on the other side of that trip, what’s in it for you? You’re still homeless, but now you don’t know anybody, you don’t know your way around, you don’t know where you can and can’t go without getting harassed by cops. The people who *do* take the free ticket might know somebody in San Diego, or be really eager to leave LA for some reason, but selfishness aside this policy probably won’t really solve LA’s homeless problem, either. By analogy the Desantis thing is closer to if I kidnapped a homeless person and dumped them on Leonardo DiCaprio’s front lawn with a bunch of cameras watching the whole thing. Leo certainly might feel obligated to take good care of the homeless person dumped on his lawn. Maybe this will wind up being the best thing that ever happened to him. This plan still makes me look like a piece of shit, especially if my whole purpose is to please my fans with antipathy for both homeless people and Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah maybe not many would want to get on the bus voluntary. Which is exactly how many have gotten on the bus. 2 million border encounters in the last year, how many as a percent have taken up the offer of free bus rides? maybe 1%? Less than that? I'm not sure why we need the homeless analogy. Is it negative-sum when you zoom out? Yes. But why should LA care about that? If they are successful at shifting them on to San Diego's ledger then good for them. If San Diego's mayor wants to pretend there isn't a homelessness problem in SoCal and dismiss the LA Mayor's concerns as uncompassionate whining then it absolutely makes them a hypocrite if they start whining when the homeless people show up in their town. We disagree on that one. Will it solve the larger problem? Probably not, but at least we see some action of Biden's officials meeting to address the issue and leaders declaring federal emergencies. Which seems to be more than what was happening when the immigration crisis was only affecting the red states. I don’t think finding negative sum ways to shift your problems onto others is praiseworthy. Even less so if you’re barely even addressing your own problem and mostly just making a publicity stunt out of it. And without knowing what specifically the smug liberals said it’s hard to know what you’re saying they’re hypocrites about. In the Martha’s Vineyard case the MV residents might have said a week ago “you should take care of the needy in your community.” Then the governor of Florida went and found a bunch of needy in Texas and flew them to Martha’s Vineyard, and their response was to… take care of them? While saying Florida and Texas are being assholes? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy. I don’t think you have to look that hard for evidence rich liberals talking about compassion don’t put their money where their mouth is, but for the present discussion maybe it would be more valuable to ask why exactly you’ve got an ax to grind on immigration. What problems is it causing, exactly? Are immigrants using public resources without paying taxes because they’re undocumented? Are they “taking our jobs”? We’re getting these vague references to “overwhelmed border communities” but overwhelmed by… what? Trump would probably say “crime” or “drugs” but those claims are frequently poorly substantiated. Not to say those communities don’t have crime or drug problems, but when the proposition is “let’s have Border Patrol brutalize asylum seekers more and maybe my kids won’t have drug problems” it’s both shameless and unlikely to achieve the desired effect. But maybe there are a bunch of asylum seekers who have good cases, but they wind up languishing in border towns for years before getting approved. And maybe it would be better if we dedicated some resources to processing their cases, approving them, and setting them up with assistance in different towns across the country instead of languishing in border towns waiting for their cases to be heard. Something tells me that’s not the outcome you’re hoping for, but if not then what? They are overwhelmed with people. Washington DC declared a state of emergency over the migrants that were bussed in to them. The Governor of Massachusetts called in the National Guard to help with the 50 migrants sent to Martha's Vineyard. Meanwhile in El Paso 1,166 migrants were released onto the streets by the U.S. border control in the last 8 days.Show nested quote +After spending several days on the streets of Downtown El Paso, some migrants are finding it difficult to take care of basic human necessities like using the bathroom and taking showers.
With local shelters at capacity, many migrants are now forced to live on the street enduring heavy rains, high temperatures and little access to public restrooms.
Some El Paso residents tell ABC-7 the smell of human waste is overwhelming in the area. https://kvia.com/top-stories/2022/09/13/migrants-released-on-the-streets-of-downtown-el-paso-struggle-to-find-bathrooms-and-showers/If only people cared about the hundreds of migrants that are sleeping and shitting on the streets as much as they care about the 50 sent to Martha's vineyard that are receiving warm meals, hot showers and shelter.
I don't think that this an argument that you want to make. People care about these people. People on this forum have complained about the inhuman way republican states handle immigrants for ages. And this is an extension of that same complaint. Once again, republicans are using immigrants as pawns in some stupid attempt to pwn the libs.
Your argument is basically: Why are you complaining when we treat these people shittily in one way? We have been treating them shittily in a different way for ages and you didn't complain! (Even though the last part is a bold-face lie)
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On September 19 2022 19:18 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 18:37 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2022 08:39 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2022 06:52 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 05:26 BlackJack wrote:You can speculate all you want but if you actually want to provide some evidence that people are being coerced or forced onto buses then I'm all ears. So far every news source says the migrants have been grateful and happy for the free rides. https://time.com/6211993/greg-abbott-migrants-buses-texas-dc-new-york/Fifteen migrants who spoke to TIME in Del Rio and Washington said they were thrilled for the option of free transportation, and were surprised to learn that Abbott’s intentions were less about accommodating them than inconveniencing his political opponents. “It’s great that he helped us,” says Oliver, a 26-year-old migrant, in an interview conducted at his arrival in Washington on July 26. https://us.cnn.com/2022/08/19/us/texas-migrants-bus-washington-dc-new-york/index.htmlMany, like Figueroa, are happy to leave Texas. The buses stop at several cities along the way to the Northeast, allowing migrants to disembark to reunite with friends and family in other locations. In Washington DC, Figueroa and her husband will meet with their friends.
"They want to go on the buses," said Valeria Wheeler, the executive director of Mission: Border Hope, a non-profit organization which serves the border community in Eagle Pass. "No one has been forced." The migrants themselves don't seem to be complaining. As is typical these days, it's others getting offended on their behalf over the horrors of having to endure such an arduous journey as a free air-conditioned bus ride which I'm sure makes the trek through Central America to get here in the first place seem like a cake walk. Nobody should be surprised here. Of course these mayors and governors can't just come out and say "stop sending migrants here, we don't want them and we don't have room for them." That's completely against their brand. So they have to try to channel their whining through invented narratives that migrants are being kidnapped/trafficked without any evidence. Seems like we’ve switched from the Desantis stunt to Abbott’s bus thing. So on that: If LA started a program where they’d give homeless people free bus tickets to San Diego, San Diego would be understandably peeved. The entire premise of the program is that programs to take care of homeless people are expensive, but if you pay a little for bus tickets you can shift that off your own ledger onto someone else’s. It’s a negative sum policy, obviously not universalizable, and I see no reason to praise the politician who came up with it. Nor would it expose some hypocrisy if San Diego’s mayor has made a bunch of public statements about how we should be compassionate and take good care of the homeless. But the homeless people who got the free ticket to San Diego might be happy enough about it. But also, they’re not just drains on public monies, they’re human beings with lives. How many people are there really that are going to happily climb on a bus to a completely new city with nothing but what they can carry on, and the only thing that was stopping them before was the price of the bus ticket? Without any form of coercion how many takers is LA actually gonna get? Just because you’re homeless doesn’t mean you don’t have any attachments. If they’re not giving you *any* way to survive on the other side of that trip, what’s in it for you? You’re still homeless, but now you don’t know anybody, you don’t know your way around, you don’t know where you can and can’t go without getting harassed by cops. The people who *do* take the free ticket might know somebody in San Diego, or be really eager to leave LA for some reason, but selfishness aside this policy probably won’t really solve LA’s homeless problem, either. By analogy the Desantis thing is closer to if I kidnapped a homeless person and dumped them on Leonardo DiCaprio’s front lawn with a bunch of cameras watching the whole thing. Leo certainly might feel obligated to take good care of the homeless person dumped on his lawn. Maybe this will wind up being the best thing that ever happened to him. This plan still makes me look like a piece of shit, especially if my whole purpose is to please my fans with antipathy for both homeless people and Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah maybe not many would want to get on the bus voluntary. Which is exactly how many have gotten on the bus. 2 million border encounters in the last year, how many as a percent have taken up the offer of free bus rides? maybe 1%? Less than that? I'm not sure why we need the homeless analogy. Is it negative-sum when you zoom out? Yes. But why should LA care about that? If they are successful at shifting them on to San Diego's ledger then good for them. If San Diego's mayor wants to pretend there isn't a homelessness problem in SoCal and dismiss the LA Mayor's concerns as uncompassionate whining then it absolutely makes them a hypocrite if they start whining when the homeless people show up in their town. We disagree on that one. Will it solve the larger problem? Probably not, but at least we see some action of Biden's officials meeting to address the issue and leaders declaring federal emergencies. Which seems to be more than what was happening when the immigration crisis was only affecting the red states. I don’t think finding negative sum ways to shift your problems onto others is praiseworthy. Even less so if you’re barely even addressing your own problem and mostly just making a publicity stunt out of it. And without knowing what specifically the smug liberals said it’s hard to know what you’re saying they’re hypocrites about. In the Martha’s Vineyard case the MV residents might have said a week ago “you should take care of the needy in your community.” Then the governor of Florida went and found a bunch of needy in Texas and flew them to Martha’s Vineyard, and their response was to… take care of them? While saying Florida and Texas are being assholes? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy. I don’t think you have to look that hard for evidence rich liberals talking about compassion don’t put their money where their mouth is, but for the present discussion maybe it would be more valuable to ask why exactly you’ve got an ax to grind on immigration. What problems is it causing, exactly? Are immigrants using public resources without paying taxes because they’re undocumented? Are they “taking our jobs”? We’re getting these vague references to “overwhelmed border communities” but overwhelmed by… what? Trump would probably say “crime” or “drugs” but those claims are frequently poorly substantiated. Not to say those communities don’t have crime or drug problems, but when the proposition is “let’s have Border Patrol brutalize asylum seekers more and maybe my kids won’t have drug problems” it’s both shameless and unlikely to achieve the desired effect. But maybe there are a bunch of asylum seekers who have good cases, but they wind up languishing in border towns for years before getting approved. And maybe it would be better if we dedicated some resources to processing their cases, approving them, and setting them up with assistance in different towns across the country instead of languishing in border towns waiting for their cases to be heard. Something tells me that’s not the outcome you’re hoping for, but if not then what? They are overwhelmed with people. Washington DC declared a state of emergency over the migrants that were bussed in to them. The Governor of Massachusetts called in the National Guard to help with the 50 migrants sent to Martha's Vineyard. Meanwhile in El Paso 1,166 migrants were released onto the streets by the U.S. border control in the last 8 days.After spending several days on the streets of Downtown El Paso, some migrants are finding it difficult to take care of basic human necessities like using the bathroom and taking showers.
With local shelters at capacity, many migrants are now forced to live on the street enduring heavy rains, high temperatures and little access to public restrooms.
Some El Paso residents tell ABC-7 the smell of human waste is overwhelming in the area. https://kvia.com/top-stories/2022/09/13/migrants-released-on-the-streets-of-downtown-el-paso-struggle-to-find-bathrooms-and-showers/If only people cared about the hundreds of migrants that are sleeping and shitting on the streets as much as they care about the 50 sent to Martha's vineyard that are receiving warm meals, hot showers and shelter. I don't think that this an argument that you want to make. People care about these people. People on this forum have complained about the inhuman way republican states handle immigrants for ages. And this is an extension of that same complaint. Once again, republicans are using immigrants as pawns in some stupid attempt to pwn the libs. Your argument is basically: Why are you complaining when we treat these people shittily in one way? We have been treating them shittily in a different way for ages and you didn't complain! (Even though the last part is a bold-face lie)
If any city wants to share the love I'm sure El Paso can re-route the buses. I'm guessing they've had zero offers so far. But I bet it feels good to criticize the red states for not doing more while offering to do fuck all yourself. Just endless pats on the back for the fine folks of Massachusetts because they all came together to take care of 50 people. El Paso got 2,000 migrants in one day last week.
Btw, El Paso votes overwhelmingly Democrat and it's run by Democrats. It's also 81% Hispanic. But don't let facts get in the way of blaming everything on the old racist white Republicans.
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Northern Ireland25258 Posts
On September 19 2022 18:37 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 08:39 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2022 06:52 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 05:26 BlackJack wrote:You can speculate all you want but if you actually want to provide some evidence that people are being coerced or forced onto buses then I'm all ears. So far every news source says the migrants have been grateful and happy for the free rides. https://time.com/6211993/greg-abbott-migrants-buses-texas-dc-new-york/Fifteen migrants who spoke to TIME in Del Rio and Washington said they were thrilled for the option of free transportation, and were surprised to learn that Abbott’s intentions were less about accommodating them than inconveniencing his political opponents. “It’s great that he helped us,” says Oliver, a 26-year-old migrant, in an interview conducted at his arrival in Washington on July 26. https://us.cnn.com/2022/08/19/us/texas-migrants-bus-washington-dc-new-york/index.htmlMany, like Figueroa, are happy to leave Texas. The buses stop at several cities along the way to the Northeast, allowing migrants to disembark to reunite with friends and family in other locations. In Washington DC, Figueroa and her husband will meet with their friends.
"They want to go on the buses," said Valeria Wheeler, the executive director of Mission: Border Hope, a non-profit organization which serves the border community in Eagle Pass. "No one has been forced." The migrants themselves don't seem to be complaining. As is typical these days, it's others getting offended on their behalf over the horrors of having to endure such an arduous journey as a free air-conditioned bus ride which I'm sure makes the trek through Central America to get here in the first place seem like a cake walk. Nobody should be surprised here. Of course these mayors and governors can't just come out and say "stop sending migrants here, we don't want them and we don't have room for them." That's completely against their brand. So they have to try to channel their whining through invented narratives that migrants are being kidnapped/trafficked without any evidence. Seems like we’ve switched from the Desantis stunt to Abbott’s bus thing. So on that: If LA started a program where they’d give homeless people free bus tickets to San Diego, San Diego would be understandably peeved. The entire premise of the program is that programs to take care of homeless people are expensive, but if you pay a little for bus tickets you can shift that off your own ledger onto someone else’s. It’s a negative sum policy, obviously not universalizable, and I see no reason to praise the politician who came up with it. Nor would it expose some hypocrisy if San Diego’s mayor has made a bunch of public statements about how we should be compassionate and take good care of the homeless. But the homeless people who got the free ticket to San Diego might be happy enough about it. But also, they’re not just drains on public monies, they’re human beings with lives. How many people are there really that are going to happily climb on a bus to a completely new city with nothing but what they can carry on, and the only thing that was stopping them before was the price of the bus ticket? Without any form of coercion how many takers is LA actually gonna get? Just because you’re homeless doesn’t mean you don’t have any attachments. If they’re not giving you *any* way to survive on the other side of that trip, what’s in it for you? You’re still homeless, but now you don’t know anybody, you don’t know your way around, you don’t know where you can and can’t go without getting harassed by cops. The people who *do* take the free ticket might know somebody in San Diego, or be really eager to leave LA for some reason, but selfishness aside this policy probably won’t really solve LA’s homeless problem, either. By analogy the Desantis thing is closer to if I kidnapped a homeless person and dumped them on Leonardo DiCaprio’s front lawn with a bunch of cameras watching the whole thing. Leo certainly might feel obligated to take good care of the homeless person dumped on his lawn. Maybe this will wind up being the best thing that ever happened to him. This plan still makes me look like a piece of shit, especially if my whole purpose is to please my fans with antipathy for both homeless people and Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah maybe not many would want to get on the bus voluntary. Which is exactly how many have gotten on the bus. 2 million border encounters in the last year, how many as a percent have taken up the offer of free bus rides? maybe 1%? Less than that? I'm not sure why we need the homeless analogy. Is it negative-sum when you zoom out? Yes. But why should LA care about that? If they are successful at shifting them on to San Diego's ledger then good for them. If San Diego's mayor wants to pretend there isn't a homelessness problem in SoCal and dismiss the LA Mayor's concerns as uncompassionate whining then it absolutely makes them a hypocrite if they start whining when the homeless people show up in their town. We disagree on that one. Will it solve the larger problem? Probably not, but at least we see some action of Biden's officials meeting to address the issue and leaders declaring federal emergencies. Which seems to be more than what was happening when the immigration crisis was only affecting the red states. I don’t think finding negative sum ways to shift your problems onto others is praiseworthy. Even less so if you’re barely even addressing your own problem and mostly just making a publicity stunt out of it. And without knowing what specifically the smug liberals said it’s hard to know what you’re saying they’re hypocrites about. In the Martha’s Vineyard case the MV residents might have said a week ago “you should take care of the needy in your community.” Then the governor of Florida went and found a bunch of needy in Texas and flew them to Martha’s Vineyard, and their response was to… take care of them? While saying Florida and Texas are being assholes? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy. I don’t think you have to look that hard for evidence rich liberals talking about compassion don’t put their money where their mouth is, but for the present discussion maybe it would be more valuable to ask why exactly you’ve got an ax to grind on immigration. What problems is it causing, exactly? Are immigrants using public resources without paying taxes because they’re undocumented? Are they “taking our jobs”? We’re getting these vague references to “overwhelmed border communities” but overwhelmed by… what? Trump would probably say “crime” or “drugs” but those claims are frequently poorly substantiated. Not to say those communities don’t have crime or drug problems, but when the proposition is “let’s have Border Patrol brutalize asylum seekers more and maybe my kids won’t have drug problems” it’s both shameless and unlikely to achieve the desired effect. But maybe there are a bunch of asylum seekers who have good cases, but they wind up languishing in border towns for years before getting approved. And maybe it would be better if we dedicated some resources to processing their cases, approving them, and setting them up with assistance in different towns across the country instead of languishing in border towns waiting for their cases to be heard. Something tells me that’s not the outcome you’re hoping for, but if not then what? They are overwhelmed with people. Washington DC declared a state of emergency over the migrants that were bussed in to them. The Governor of Massachusetts called in the National Guard to help with the 50 migrants sent to Martha's Vineyard. Meanwhile in El Paso 1,166 migrants were released onto the streets by the U.S. border control in the last 8 days.Show nested quote +After spending several days on the streets of Downtown El Paso, some migrants are finding it difficult to take care of basic human necessities like using the bathroom and taking showers.
With local shelters at capacity, many migrants are now forced to live on the street enduring heavy rains, high temperatures and little access to public restrooms.
Some El Paso residents tell ABC-7 the smell of human waste is overwhelming in the area. https://kvia.com/top-stories/2022/09/13/migrants-released-on-the-streets-of-downtown-el-paso-struggle-to-find-bathrooms-and-showers/If only people cared about the hundreds of migrants that are sleeping and shitting on the streets as much as they care about the 50 sent to Martha's vineyard that are receiving warm meals, hot showers and shelter.
Who is advocating dumping migrants with no integration resources and access to basic needs?
These are complex logistical problems that require some vision, cooperation and dare I say some compassion to solve.
False dichotomies abound. Yes I’m generally an open borders guy, it doesn’t immediately follow that I advocate for migrants to be dumped in pseudo-ethnic conclaves with no access to resources to get them acclimated and contributing in their new surroundings.
Certainly NIMBYism is a very real phenomenon, but not all objections come from that place.
My native Belfast has a growing homeless/mental health and drug abuse problem, COVID and the associated economic downturn have all driven this, we have relatively little migration so it’s mostly natives.
I advocate strongly for further intervention in those areas, but am very against some provisioning of hostels. Not because it’s unseemly or (god forbid) dropping the house prices, but because it’s awful, counter-productive policy.
It shouldn’t take a genius, or someone like me who did come out of long term psychiatric care to tell people why it is a terrible, terrible idea to temporarily house recovering drug addicts, and those transitioning from mental hospitals in the same place.
It’s very much not a case (as has been levied at me in the past) ‘haha, see you really don’t care about x issue’, the proposed solution is just awful, indeed it’s maybe actually making the problem actively worse.
Just a tangentially related example, but yeah the issue is nobody should be wandering around having to shit on the streets. I wouldn’t be wanting to live there.
But the issue is well, not migrants necessarily but anyone wandering around and having to do that. I wouldn’t feel any better if I lived in a neighbourhood and go ‘oh phew that’s ok that bloke is taking a dump but he looks native and patriotic’.
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And again the only one who was for open borders was Ronald Reagan and the Republicans when they thought pro life Catholics would improve their voting prospects.
Ronald Reagan told everyone what to say at the border to get legal status and told everyone else that amnesty was an option the government could and would extend when it wished.
We have not been able to reform immigration because of Republicans and never will be able to. The status quo now as then benefits Republicans. Immigration is good for the economy and Trump was for building a wall first and foremost.
Republicans are for open borders because they're a culture war party now without any attempt to justify their positions other than the greviences they invent.
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On September 19 2022 18:37 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2022 08:39 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 07:45 BlackJack wrote:On September 19 2022 06:52 ChristianS wrote:On September 19 2022 05:26 BlackJack wrote:You can speculate all you want but if you actually want to provide some evidence that people are being coerced or forced onto buses then I'm all ears. So far every news source says the migrants have been grateful and happy for the free rides. https://time.com/6211993/greg-abbott-migrants-buses-texas-dc-new-york/Fifteen migrants who spoke to TIME in Del Rio and Washington said they were thrilled for the option of free transportation, and were surprised to learn that Abbott’s intentions were less about accommodating them than inconveniencing his political opponents. “It’s great that he helped us,” says Oliver, a 26-year-old migrant, in an interview conducted at his arrival in Washington on July 26. https://us.cnn.com/2022/08/19/us/texas-migrants-bus-washington-dc-new-york/index.htmlMany, like Figueroa, are happy to leave Texas. The buses stop at several cities along the way to the Northeast, allowing migrants to disembark to reunite with friends and family in other locations. In Washington DC, Figueroa and her husband will meet with their friends.
"They want to go on the buses," said Valeria Wheeler, the executive director of Mission: Border Hope, a non-profit organization which serves the border community in Eagle Pass. "No one has been forced." The migrants themselves don't seem to be complaining. As is typical these days, it's others getting offended on their behalf over the horrors of having to endure such an arduous journey as a free air-conditioned bus ride which I'm sure makes the trek through Central America to get here in the first place seem like a cake walk. Nobody should be surprised here. Of course these mayors and governors can't just come out and say "stop sending migrants here, we don't want them and we don't have room for them." That's completely against their brand. So they have to try to channel their whining through invented narratives that migrants are being kidnapped/trafficked without any evidence. Seems like we’ve switched from the Desantis stunt to Abbott’s bus thing. So on that: If LA started a program where they’d give homeless people free bus tickets to San Diego, San Diego would be understandably peeved. The entire premise of the program is that programs to take care of homeless people are expensive, but if you pay a little for bus tickets you can shift that off your own ledger onto someone else’s. It’s a negative sum policy, obviously not universalizable, and I see no reason to praise the politician who came up with it. Nor would it expose some hypocrisy if San Diego’s mayor has made a bunch of public statements about how we should be compassionate and take good care of the homeless. But the homeless people who got the free ticket to San Diego might be happy enough about it. But also, they’re not just drains on public monies, they’re human beings with lives. How many people are there really that are going to happily climb on a bus to a completely new city with nothing but what they can carry on, and the only thing that was stopping them before was the price of the bus ticket? Without any form of coercion how many takers is LA actually gonna get? Just because you’re homeless doesn’t mean you don’t have any attachments. If they’re not giving you *any* way to survive on the other side of that trip, what’s in it for you? You’re still homeless, but now you don’t know anybody, you don’t know your way around, you don’t know where you can and can’t go without getting harassed by cops. The people who *do* take the free ticket might know somebody in San Diego, or be really eager to leave LA for some reason, but selfishness aside this policy probably won’t really solve LA’s homeless problem, either. By analogy the Desantis thing is closer to if I kidnapped a homeless person and dumped them on Leonardo DiCaprio’s front lawn with a bunch of cameras watching the whole thing. Leo certainly might feel obligated to take good care of the homeless person dumped on his lawn. Maybe this will wind up being the best thing that ever happened to him. This plan still makes me look like a piece of shit, especially if my whole purpose is to please my fans with antipathy for both homeless people and Leonardo DiCaprio. Yeah maybe not many would want to get on the bus voluntary. Which is exactly how many have gotten on the bus. 2 million border encounters in the last year, how many as a percent have taken up the offer of free bus rides? maybe 1%? Less than that? I'm not sure why we need the homeless analogy. Is it negative-sum when you zoom out? Yes. But why should LA care about that? If they are successful at shifting them on to San Diego's ledger then good for them. If San Diego's mayor wants to pretend there isn't a homelessness problem in SoCal and dismiss the LA Mayor's concerns as uncompassionate whining then it absolutely makes them a hypocrite if they start whining when the homeless people show up in their town. We disagree on that one. Will it solve the larger problem? Probably not, but at least we see some action of Biden's officials meeting to address the issue and leaders declaring federal emergencies. Which seems to be more than what was happening when the immigration crisis was only affecting the red states. I don’t think finding negative sum ways to shift your problems onto others is praiseworthy. Even less so if you’re barely even addressing your own problem and mostly just making a publicity stunt out of it. And without knowing what specifically the smug liberals said it’s hard to know what you’re saying they’re hypocrites about. In the Martha’s Vineyard case the MV residents might have said a week ago “you should take care of the needy in your community.” Then the governor of Florida went and found a bunch of needy in Texas and flew them to Martha’s Vineyard, and their response was to… take care of them? While saying Florida and Texas are being assholes? I’m not seeing the hypocrisy. I don’t think you have to look that hard for evidence rich liberals talking about compassion don’t put their money where their mouth is, but for the present discussion maybe it would be more valuable to ask why exactly you’ve got an ax to grind on immigration. What problems is it causing, exactly? Are immigrants using public resources without paying taxes because they’re undocumented? Are they “taking our jobs”? We’re getting these vague references to “overwhelmed border communities” but overwhelmed by… what? Trump would probably say “crime” or “drugs” but those claims are frequently poorly substantiated. Not to say those communities don’t have crime or drug problems, but when the proposition is “let’s have Border Patrol brutalize asylum seekers more and maybe my kids won’t have drug problems” it’s both shameless and unlikely to achieve the desired effect. But maybe there are a bunch of asylum seekers who have good cases, but they wind up languishing in border towns for years before getting approved. And maybe it would be better if we dedicated some resources to processing their cases, approving them, and setting them up with assistance in different towns across the country instead of languishing in border towns waiting for their cases to be heard. Something tells me that’s not the outcome you’re hoping for, but if not then what? They are overwhelmed with people. Washington DC declared a state of emergency over the migrants that were bussed in to them. The Governor of Massachusetts called in the National Guard to help with the 50 migrants sent to Martha's Vineyard. Meanwhile in El Paso 1,166 migrants were released onto the streets by the U.S. border control in the last 8 days.Show nested quote +After spending several days on the streets of Downtown El Paso, some migrants are finding it difficult to take care of basic human necessities like using the bathroom and taking showers.
With local shelters at capacity, many migrants are now forced to live on the street enduring heavy rains, high temperatures and little access to public restrooms.
Some El Paso residents tell ABC-7 the smell of human waste is overwhelming in the area. https://kvia.com/top-stories/2022/09/13/migrants-released-on-the-streets-of-downtown-el-paso-struggle-to-find-bathrooms-and-showers/If only people cared about the hundreds of migrants that are sleeping and shitting on the streets as much as they care about the 50 sent to Martha's vineyard that are receiving warm meals, hot showers and shelter.
So places that have no infrastructure to deal with refugees have no infrastructure to deal with refugees, and resort to emergency procedures to deal with them. Whereas well-known border crossings have more refugees enter on a daily basis and somehow cope (very shittily, I might add).
This is a truly astounding finding. I wish we had known this sooner, but it took the sheer genius of deSantis to discover that Martha's Vineyard is NOT in fact properly equipped to deal with refugees. Thank god for his astute help in pointing this out!
Or... maybe... we should be asking ourselves why El Paso is struggling so badly to find money to give the refugees the absolute minimum of human rights? Perhaps it's because they prefer to spend that money on stunts like flying those refugees to Martha's Vineyard?
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I mean, in a way this all illustrates how cunning the Republican's move was (in the same way that planting a bomb requires cunning). They set up an unsuspecting group of immigrants to get deported despite being legal, lie to them that they're going to get housing and work, and on the way out use them to ambush the Democrats, who had no idea any of this was happening, having cameras ready to go so they can proclaim: "see?!? Democrats don't really care about taking care of immigrants like they claim, they're the hypocrites".
They planned this out start to finish. This is what we mean when we say Democrats don't really fight back. They rarely show this level of commitment to just fucking with their opponents. Mind you, I draw comparisons to setting up a bomb, because this was fucking vile. If Republicans gave a shit about actually dealing with an issue they would've opened a dialogue, or drafted a law, instead they resort to the political equivalent of a terrorist bombing. Because it's not about solving a problem. Why would they want to solve the problem they created?
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EPT
