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On June 28 2018 22:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On June 28 2018 22:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 28 2018 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 22:09 Acrofales wrote:On June 28 2018 22:08 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:
The biggest fear is that the infighting never stops, like the tea party. That the primary season never ends and they fight all the way through their term. The infighting will likely be worse on the left if the democrat version of the tea party takes off. The far left isn’t bound by sufficient civility and decency for it to go any other way. Since when are you a connoisseur of the "far left"? Or are you basing your opinion on... GH? The far left of the US is the political group that thinks it’s okay to riot and relentlessly harass political opponents as a form of civil disobedience. Are you really going to debate this after what we have seen over the past couple years? Donald Trump. Lock her up. Enough said. Oh please. That’s child’s play compared to what the far left does. From occupy Wall Street, to anti-police race demonstrations/riots, to violence over conservative speakers speaking at universities, to Maxine Waters inciting harassment of opposing political figures, the far left is far more feral than the tea party. It’s not even close. The riot police don’t regularly come out and fire tear gas when the tea party has a rally. You don't get to equate the moderate side of the ultraconservative right with the most radical left-wing movements you can find. But even if you do, I'll relate it back to something of a success here in Spain. I don't know about Occupy Wallstreet, but the inspiration (the 15-M protests in Spain) was completely peaceful. They just refused to leave when ordered to do so, which eventually caused the police to forcefully remove them, and that sparked general outrage against the police, and forced police chiefs to resign, despite it being quite clear that some of the 15-M protesters were actually out to get that footage. The 15-M protesters eventually heavily influenced the formation of Podemos, currently a fairly influential party in Spain, and all without violence. Why not? We had ample discussions about those events around here, and my recollection is that the regular leftists tolerated and even defended what was going on.
And I remember right leaning people here defending and justifying Charlottesville, Nazi flags, torches and all.
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On June 28 2018 22:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 22:41 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 22:37 Acrofales wrote:On June 28 2018 22:26 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 22:15 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 28 2018 22:12 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 22:09 Acrofales wrote:On June 28 2018 22:08 xDaunt wrote:On June 28 2018 21:54 Plansix wrote:
The biggest fear is that the infighting never stops, like the tea party. That the primary season never ends and they fight all the way through their term. The infighting will likely be worse on the left if the democrat version of the tea party takes off. The far left isn’t bound by sufficient civility and decency for it to go any other way. Since when are you a connoisseur of the "far left"? Or are you basing your opinion on... GH? The far left of the US is the political group that thinks it’s okay to riot and relentlessly harass political opponents as a form of civil disobedience. Are you really going to debate this after what we have seen over the past couple years? Donald Trump. Lock her up. Enough said. Oh please. That’s child’s play compared to what the far left does. From occupy Wall Street, to anti-police race demonstrations/riots, to violence over conservative speakers speaking at universities, to Maxine Waters inciting harassment of opposing political figures, the far left is far more feral than the tea party. It’s not even close. The riot police don’t regularly come out and fire tear gas when the tea party has a rally. You don't get to equate the moderate side of the ultraconservative right with the most radical left-wing movements you can find. But even if you do, I'll relate it back to something of a success here in Spain. I don't know about Occupy Wallstreet, but the inspiration (the 15-M protests in Spain) was completely peaceful. They just refused to leave when ordered to do so, which eventually caused the police to forcefully remove them, and that sparked general outrage against the police, and forced police chiefs to resign, despite it being quite clear that some of the 15-M protesters were actually out to get that footage. The 15-M protesters eventually heavily influenced the formation of Podemos, currently a fairly influential party in Spain, and all without violence. Why not? We had ample discussions about those events around here, and my recollection is that the regular leftists tolerated and even defended what was going on. And I remember right leaning people here defending and justifying Charlottesville, Nazi flags, torches and all.
To extent that it was a lawful event, of course. First amendment even protects Nazis.
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Meanwhile in the US, we order children to appear in court without their parents for their own separate deportation hearings. Some as young as 3. Because we are a nation that takes kids from their parents and does this to them.
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On June 28 2018 22:53 JimmiC wrote:
This is a dumb argument. Both sides extreme parts are extreme. End of topic. What extreme is more extreme is possibly the worst argument I've ever read on this thread.
Seriously sometimes this thread devolves into "no you" "nuuh" "no you" but with much more impressive vocabulary.
Other times it is pretty good political debate.
The center is moved by what people believe the center is. If you move the center way to the left, it will look extreme to be somewhat rightwing, and if you move the center way to the right, it will look extreme to be somewhat leftwing. It's not quite enough to say that "extremes are extreme", we need a frame of reference.
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Whatever, I don’t really need to prove my point further. Just remember this conversation if a leftist tea party pops up and causes hell for the Democrats.
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On June 28 2018 22:53 JimmiC wrote:
This is a dumb argument. Both sides extreme parts are extreme. End of topic. What extreme is more extreme is possibly the worst argument I've ever read on this thread.
Seriously sometimes this thread devolves into "no you" "nuuh" "no you" but with much more impressive vocabulary.
Other times it is pretty good political debate.
"Both sides" is a pretty silly position to take when comparing extremes here. If people want to bring up far left vs far right violence, the FBI and DHS will shut that discussion down extremely quickly.
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On June 28 2018 22:57 xDaunt wrote:
Whatever, I don’t really need to prove my point further. Just remember this conversation if a leftist tea party pops up and causes hell for the Democrats.
I’m just looking forward to the 20 Benghazi style investigations they will open up once they control all the house committees.
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On June 28 2018 22:53 JimmiC wrote:
This is a dumb argument. Both sides extreme parts are extreme. End of topic. What extreme is more extreme is possibly the worst argument I've ever read on this thread.
Seriously sometimes this thread devolves into "no you" "nuuh" "no you" but with much more impressive vocabulary.
Other times it is pretty good political debate.
I don't think it's good enough to equate all extremists, regardless of the position they're being extreme on. I think it's important to look at the context of what "X extremist" actually means, in the same way that a Christian or Muslim extremist is verrry different than a Jainist extremist in terms of violence and how others are affected. A liberal extremist in the United States and a conservative extremist in the United States are not equivalent in terms of which would be more harmful for society.
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I think it’s safe to say that the far right’s body count is higher than the far left’s. Parkland is the latest example.
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It gets even more preposterous when you consider the mercurial nature of the “sides” and how artificial the left to right political spectrum is.
On June 28 2018 23:24 Doodsmack wrote:
I think it’s safe to say that the far right’s body count is higher than the far left’s. Parkland is the latest example.
Not really. People forget that guy who shot all those members of the House of Representatives.
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The feedback loop has been closed. Now we have a Fox executive literally running comms from inside the white house! I wonder at what point the few decent reporters left at Fox decide they dont want to be part of a state propaganda network and quit.
Also, extra points for Trump picking someone who lost his last job for not taking sexual harassment claims seriously.
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On June 28 2018 23:20 JimmiC wrote:
Every sensible person should be against both sides extremists.
Can't say that in a vacuum, no. Depends where the center is as that's what defines extremism.
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On June 28 2018 23:24 Plansix wrote:It gets even more preposterous when you consider the mercurial nature of the “sides” and how artificial the left to right political spectrum is. Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 23:24 Doodsmack wrote:
I think it’s safe to say that the far right’s body count is higher than the far left’s. Parkland is the latest example. Not really. People forget that guy who shot all those members of the House of Representatives.
It’s about whose body count is higher. I think the answer is clear.
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On June 28 2018 22:57 xDaunt wrote:
Whatever, I don’t really need to prove my point further. Just remember this conversation if a leftist tea party pops up and causes hell for the Democrats.
Maybe the second amendment people will utilize methods enabled by the constitution to stop that from happening.
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On June 28 2018 23:37 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 23:32 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2018 23:20 JimmiC wrote:
Every sensible person should be against both sides extremists. Can't say that in a vacuum, no. Depends where the center is as that's what defines extremism. I mean you can split hairs and argue about anything. I was defining extremism as the points each side was bringing up about the other. The point is people should be trying to get these people out of their own party because it reflects poorly on them and their party instead of justifying their inclusion because the other side worse. It brings both parties down.
I think the point is that “extremist” is a hard term to quantify. MLK and Gandhi were effectively treated as terrorist in their time. Labeling someone outside of the approved norms is a way for the powerful to discredit them. But there are also people of all political leanings that truly malicious and harmful. It is not a simple process of lumping people into baskets.
On June 28 2018 23:42 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 23:24 Plansix wrote:It gets even more preposterous when you consider the mercurial nature of the “sides” and how artificial the left to right political spectrum is. On June 28 2018 23:24 Doodsmack wrote:
I think it’s safe to say that the far right’s body count is higher than the far left’s. Parkland is the latest example. Not really. People forget that guy who shot all those members of the House of Representatives. It’s about whose body count is higher. I think the answer is clear.
Sure, whatever you need to win this one my guy.
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On June 28 2018 23:37 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2018 23:32 Nebuchad wrote:On June 28 2018 23:20 JimmiC wrote:
Every sensible person should be against both sides extremists. Can't say that in a vacuum, no. Depends where the center is as that's what defines extremism. I mean you can split hairs and argue about anything. I was defining extremism as the points each side was bringing up about the other. The point is people should be trying to get these people out of their own party because it reflects poorly on them and their party instead of justifying their inclusion because the other side worse. It brings both parties down.
This isn't splitting hairs, this is quite important. Where the center is is what defines extremism. Bernie Sanders is quite extreme in the US today: he is factually quite far left of where the center of american politics is. MLK was also quite extreme in his time. The only thing you're going to ensure if you dismiss extremism out of hand is that things never change, which isn't a neutral position, it's a conservative one.
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Minor note, but I thought the parkland guy made a video that basically made it seems like fame was his goal. They never did connect him to that Nazi group or whatever it was.
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EPT
