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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On June 26 2018 01:04 xDaunt wrote: Of course I can. No one with any intellectual integrity conflates what happened in Charlottesville with Republicans and Trump supporters in general. haha thanks for the joke. ill just consider this as a thinly veiled insult. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 26 2018 01:29 Nebuchad wrote: At least we can say that Danglars is consistent on this issue, cause I remember that when entire crowds of people chanted "lock her up" about their political opposition and his preferred candidate encouraged this, he was really upset about this egregious lack of civility. More importantly, as the Democratic leaders are calling for the civility he wants. Saying that denying goverment employee's service won't have a real impact on anything, so better to spend the time volunteering. So there are calls for civility out there that he chooses to ignore or his news feed isn't bringing him. On the topic of democrats calling for civility, they are still saying that the current state of the discourse is a response to Trump. They are doing what leaders are supposed to do, which is try to create outlets for the public frustration with goverment, rather than leave us our self defeating creative impulses. They know that other people are going to feed that fire and goverment officials should not fill that role. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22664 Posts
On June 26 2018 00:21 Doodsmack wrote: Just because Trump isn't able to turn the US into a fascist dictatorship doesn't mean he shouldn't be called out for wanting it. And he has made it very clear he would love to be a dictator in comments regarding Putin, Erdogan, Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-Un.I will say that the Nazi comparisons being bandied about in the liberal sphere since the families were separated seem a bit nutty. While Trumps use of dehumanizing language certainly correlates with some step on the scale leading to genocide, and if there were no laws there would probably be genocide in America, the thing is that our democracy is actually really solid and the executive is checked. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote: Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead. Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This, this, this. It's so easy for conservatives to "both sides" now. It may have been dumb, but perhaps in the grand scheme of things it's good for the country. The issue is still so partisan nobody seems to understand the implications...if you do it politely, you can discriminate against anyone for any reason and as long as you don't reveal that reason you're a-ok. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:24 mierin wrote: This, this, this. It's so easy for conservatives to "both sides" now. It may have been dumb, but perhaps in the grand scheme of things it's good for the country. The issue is still so partisan nobody seems to understand the implications...if you do it politely, you can discriminate against anyone for any reason and as long as you don't reveal that reason you're a-ok. This is also basically a re-embracing of "deplorables". It is easy for republicans to point out "see? they are still demonizing white conservatism and trying to wipe out your ability to be anything less than entirely politically correct. This is thought policing and I just want to preserve people's right to free speech" It is a complete slam dunk for conservative messaging. Toxic for democrats. Pelosi is being smart by trying to erase this insanely stupid bullshit from democrats. I imagine she had a very firm talk with a few people to drop this idea like a bag of bricks. Bullshit like this could be what energizes the right for midterms. We need to ABANDON that god awful ship. Things I would like democrats to focus on as we go into November: - Child separation and children who have been separated - NOT immigration as a whole - Legalization of marijuana federally - NOT legalization of ANYTHING else - Expansion of medicaid - Defense of social security - People associated with Trump who have either been prosecuted, arrested and whatnot. I'd like to see messages about how so and so many people have been indicted. Scott Pruitt waste, general corruption. We need to go back to being the opposition party and focus on every little bit of corruption and stuff. - BE THE OPPOSITION PARTY | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote: Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead. Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. | ||
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IgnE
United States7684 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote: Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead. Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. a couple people in this thread thought it was a great idea | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote: This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Something being a natural response is a stupid fucking cop out. Killing someone for banging your wife is also a natural response, but we should be above that. It is just so fucking petty. And it won't change policy. Do we really think Sanders will be like "well shit, now that I can't eat at this restaurant, I am going to lobby hard for immigration reform and permanent protection for dreamers"??? Of course not. This isn't effective. This is just a feel good release for negative emotions. It feels good to strike back at people who you feel weakened and ineffective against. But that doesn't mean it is good policy or a way to win over people. At the end of the day, the important thing is votes, not patting yourself on the back. This is just a desperate attempt to feel empowered. I think some democrats I know see this as good, but they aren't thinking right. This isn't the kind of opposition stuff that wins people over. People cheer for it because want to finally feel like bad people are getting what they deserve. It is a bullshit way to feel empowered. But they aren't actually empowered. But a lot of people also think this is stupid. But the brainless people who retweet George Takei will probably love it. Gay cakes were a good rallying tower for conservatives because it was defending someone small (cake shop) vs someone big ("the liberal government"). This is taking the opposite, bullying approach. This is attacking someone when they are weak from a position of numbers. It doesn't pull sympathy from people. Well, it DOES. But it pulls from conservative sympathy, which is just so stupid from a democrat strategy perspective. Kids in cages has been a wonderful rallying cry for democrats because it is protecting children from the government. Protect damn near anything from the government and it is a win no matter what side you are on. People want to fight for the little guy. I am not inspired by bullying, even if I think the person being bullied is a shitbag. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote: Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead. Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. If they are that easily triggered then they were never really gone from the Trump camp in the first place. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:48 Gahlo wrote: If they are that easily triggered then they were never really gone from the Trump camp in the first place. I completely disagree. I think "kids in cages" was having a similar effect as Clinton's wall st stuff. There is a difference between preferring someone and being willing to vote for them. My instinct tells me that kids in cages would manage to make some people pause. They don't like democrats, but they can't support throwing kids in cages. But once they are reminded that "half the country thinks I'm deplorable", they will protect themselves by voting for Trump. The only goal is vote totals. Nothing else matters. Kids in cages is a great way to reduce the number of hesitant Trump voters actually voting. Terrorizing Sanders is a great way to get those same people off the couch. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote: This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Knowing quite a few Democrats, they are not comfortable with it. They will admit to some schadenfreude of a powerful individual experiencing the other end of power for once. But when put to it, they know this is a toxic form of protest that is both not effective and only increases tension. Edit: That being said, civility has not yielded much for left leaning folks of late. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 26 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote: Edit: That being said, civility has not yielded much for left leaning folks of late. We don't control any branch of the government. The only thing we can yield is more representation and that doesn't happen until November. Part of the issue is that people get frustrated and impatient when we have no mechanism for actually changing much. But on the other hand, if we look at kids in cages, that was a huge success. We didn't need to pass legislation because we could apply pressure other ways. Activism works, but it works in certain ways and for certain things. The stuff with harassing Sanders is a great example of the kind of shit that doesn't work. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On June 26 2018 03:35 Mohdoo wrote: We don't control any branch of the government. The only thing we can yield is more representation and that doesn't happen until November. Part of the issue is that people get frustrated and impatient when we have no mechanism for actually changing much. But on the other hand, if we look at kids in cages, that was a huge success. We didn't need to pass legislation because we could apply pressure other ways. Activism works, but it works in certain ways and for certain things. The stuff with harassing Sanders is a great example of the kind of shit that doesn't work. No, this kind of shit is exactly how the Democrat lost a billions seats to the Republicans. Civility has gotten the "left" nothing. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14211 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Pelosi’s on the Mohdoo side of things rather than Gahlo. Now that she’s pushing out in front of the issue, expect some backlash from the more #Resisty types, but a collective sigh of relief from Democrats and Democrat voters trying to win back seats in red and purple states. I don’t think she stays on as Dem head honcho in the House unless Democrats tie or retake the House in 2018. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On June 26 2018 03:40 Gahlo wrote: No, this kind of shit is exactly how the Democrat lost a billions seats to the Republicans. Civility has gotten the "left" nothing. I agree that we need a more tea-party'ish tint to our messaging that emphasizes a lack of willingness to compromise on core values. But the tea party did a great job at picking their battles. Conservatives have almost entirely abandoned any sort of anti-gay stuff from their messaging. It is all about abortion and immigration now. Good topics for them. We should similarly be focused on treating immigration children as humans and legalizing marijuana. At least IMO. But yelling at people in the Trump administration is not the ticket. Are you saying you think stuff like harassing Sanders is a good approach to rallying support? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 26 2018 03:44 Sermokala wrote: The left in american and democrats have failed for a verity of reasons but civility is the dead last reason for it. I’ve been hearing about toothless Democrats for 2 decades now, there is an argument that the party is to quick tamp down a fight over something. To eager to cede ground they think they cannot win on, rather than fight on a topic. You see it on immigration to banking reform. I don’t think a lack of civility is the problem, but it does seem to manifest that way. I don’t think food service is a good venue for a renewed effort to oppose the most odious policies of the GOP. But people are so tired of being told to be civil and seek compromise when that has failed for 20 years. Maybe a true complete breakdown of civil discourse is what is necessary to remind people why it is necessary to govern? After all, if civility was critical to getting elected, Trump wouldn’t be president. On June 26 2018 03:44 Danglars wrote: https://twitter.com/nancypelosi/status/1011264189850161152 Pelosi’s on the Mohdoo side of things rather than Gahlo. Now that she’s pushing out in front of the issue, expect some backlash from the more #Resisty types, but a collective sigh of relief from Democrats and Democrat voters trying to win back seats in red and purple states. I don’t think she stays on as Dem head honcho in the House unless Democrats tie or retake the House in 2018. I don’t think she stays either way. Especially if they take the House. That being said, the Speaker also calls for support of bipartisan legislation and the rank and file ignore it. I expect a bit of the same here as well. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On June 26 2018 01:15 Danglars wrote: Exact opposite. You should be able to treat the opposing side with civility in daily interactions. Yes, that’s just for existing. Otherwise, society falls apart. Adults should be able to separate respect (more or less earned) from basic civility (we disagree, but don’t have to ruin each other’s lives over it). If that’s a bridge too far, you just weren’t cut out for democracy, and should look towards more authoritarian systems of government to settle into. Don’t ruin the democracies that exist through the destruction of the underlying civil society. But the administration you are defending are acting opposite to what you are proposing. They don't agree with you. They didn't show basic civility to the major of san juan when they attacked her for asking for aid for her dieing people. They didn't show basic civility to Trudeau, no there is a special place in hell for him. Every day they don't show basic civility to the investigators of the special council, who have done nothing but their duty. There is no civility towards journalists who are doing their job correctly. No basic civility for Kaepernick hes just a son of bitch that should be fired. Pelosi and Schumer get insulted daily. Where is the conservative outcry against all this destruction of civil society? Why is ms sanders lunch more important? | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
I think this is more harass the nazi's, fascist, and racists. The media easily can change the perspective, and what is being said depending on "Which side you're on". On June 26 2018 03:51 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: But the administration you are defending are acting opposite to what you are proposing. They don't agree with you. They didn't show basic civility to the major of san juan when they attacked her for asking for aid for her dieing people. They didn't show basic civility to Trudeau, no there is a special place in hell for him. Every day they don't show basic civility to the investigators of the special council, who have done nothing but their duty. There is no civility towards journalists who are doing their job correctly. No basic civility for Kaepernick hes just a son of bitch that should be fired. Pelosi and Schumer get insulted daily. Where is the conservative outcry against all this destruction of civil society? Why is ms sanders lunch more important? To add my two cents, we already know they lied about the true numbers of deaths in Puerto Rico, and they don't seek to correct this. If you don't call that gross neglect, then you're part of the problem. | ||
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