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On June 26 2018 03:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:35 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote:On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead.
Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Edit: That being said, civility has not yielded much for left leaning folks of late. We don't control any branch of the government. The only thing we can yield is more representation and that doesn't happen until November. Part of the issue is that people get frustrated and impatient when we have no mechanism for actually changing much. But on the other hand, if we look at kids in cages, that was a huge success. We didn't need to pass legislation because we could apply pressure other ways. Activism works, but it works in certain ways and for certain things. The stuff with harassing Sanders is a great example of the kind of shit that doesn't work. No, this kind of shit is exactly how the Democrat lost a billions seats to the Republicans. Civility has gotten the "left" nothing. I agree that we need a more tea-party'ish tint to our messaging that emphasizes a lack of willingness to compromise on core values. But the tea party did a great job at picking their battles. Conservatives have almost entirely abandoned any sort of anti-gay stuff from their messaging. It is all about abortion and immigration now. Good topics for them. We should similarly be focused on treating immigration children as humans and legalizing marijuana. At least IMO. But yelling at people in the Trump administration is not the ticket. Are you saying you think stuff like harassing Sanders is a good approach to rallying support?
This isn't about picking battles. Of course they should run on medicare and marijuana and stuff like that rather than harassing Sanders. This isn't a battle, this is just what we're talking about today.
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I think some people confuse civility for decency. You can be the most deplorable person on the planet and still be civil. It's just how you talk. So one can cage children and rip them from their parents and still be 'civil' so long as they do it with a smile.
So fuck civility imo.
Also I saw the "our system will keep him in check" or something to that effect again and I don't remember seeing an example of our system checking Trump.
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On June 26 2018 04:04 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 03:46 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:35 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote:On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead.
Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Edit: That being said, civility has not yielded much for left leaning folks of late. We don't control any branch of the government. The only thing we can yield is more representation and that doesn't happen until November. Part of the issue is that people get frustrated and impatient when we have no mechanism for actually changing much. But on the other hand, if we look at kids in cages, that was a huge success. We didn't need to pass legislation because we could apply pressure other ways. Activism works, but it works in certain ways and for certain things. The stuff with harassing Sanders is a great example of the kind of shit that doesn't work. No, this kind of shit is exactly how the Democrat lost a billions seats to the Republicans. Civility has gotten the "left" nothing. I agree that we need a more tea-party'ish tint to our messaging that emphasizes a lack of willingness to compromise on core values. But the tea party did a great job at picking their battles. Conservatives have almost entirely abandoned any sort of anti-gay stuff from their messaging. It is all about abortion and immigration now. Good topics for them. We should similarly be focused on treating immigration children as humans and legalizing marijuana. At least IMO. But yelling at people in the Trump administration is not the ticket. Are you saying you think stuff like harassing Sanders is a good approach to rallying support? This isn't about picking battles. Of course they should run on medicare and marijuana and stuff like that rather than harassing Sanders. This isn't a battle, this is just what we're talking about today.
Maxine Waters using Twitter to encourage that behavior makes it a part of democrat messaging. I'm not going to try to say people shouldn't find their own form of activism. I don't think harassing Sanders is productive, but I'll shrug it off unless it is being actively supported by elected democrats. My issue comes with Waters joining in. That supports "they think you're deplorable!" thinking.
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On June 26 2018 04:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 04:04 Nebuchad wrote:On June 26 2018 03:46 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:35 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote:On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead.
Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Edit: That being said, civility has not yielded much for left leaning folks of late. We don't control any branch of the government. The only thing we can yield is more representation and that doesn't happen until November. Part of the issue is that people get frustrated and impatient when we have no mechanism for actually changing much. But on the other hand, if we look at kids in cages, that was a huge success. We didn't need to pass legislation because we could apply pressure other ways. Activism works, but it works in certain ways and for certain things. The stuff with harassing Sanders is a great example of the kind of shit that doesn't work. No, this kind of shit is exactly how the Democrat lost a billions seats to the Republicans. Civility has gotten the "left" nothing. I agree that we need a more tea-party'ish tint to our messaging that emphasizes a lack of willingness to compromise on core values. But the tea party did a great job at picking their battles. Conservatives have almost entirely abandoned any sort of anti-gay stuff from their messaging. It is all about abortion and immigration now. Good topics for them. We should similarly be focused on treating immigration children as humans and legalizing marijuana. At least IMO. But yelling at people in the Trump administration is not the ticket. Are you saying you think stuff like harassing Sanders is a good approach to rallying support? This isn't about picking battles. Of course they should run on medicare and marijuana and stuff like that rather than harassing Sanders. This isn't a battle, this is just what we're talking about today. Maxine Waters using Twitter to encourage that behavior makes it a part of democrat messaging. I'm not going to try to say people shouldn't find their own form of activism. I don't think harassing Sanders is productive, but I'll shrug it off unless it is being actively supported by elected democrats. My issue comes with Waters joining in. That supports "they think you're deplorable!" thinking.
I think harassing people like Sarah Sanders is more effective than most everything Democrats have done. It would have been better to spend the last year+ on that than Russia
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I agree. I think it's dangerously easy for the Republicans to attack that kind of activism, and for other Democrats to disown it, but the kind of public protest put on display at the Red Hen, and what Maxine went out and called for, showed our government officials how disliked they are better than 1,000,000 people shouting into the void of Twitter. She has it right, if we're going to try and bring these people a dose of much-needed reality, do it to their face. Show them that people are upset with them. Make them face some form of kickback for their actions. Civility is overrated. Change has to come from somewhere, and it never comes from a place of comfort.
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Kicking Sanders out might fire up the base, but there is no way of knowing how many people it turns off to politics entirely. That should be part of the discussion. There is a clear divide within the Democratic Party about how to act going forward. I think a good number of them agree with GH that they haven’t done enough. But finding the venue to do more with so little power in congress and so Trump chewing up the airwaves is hard.
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On June 26 2018 02:46 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote:On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead.
Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Something being a natural response is a stupid fucking cop out. Killing someone for banging your wife is also a natural response, but we should be above that. It is just so fucking petty. And it won't change policy. Do we really think Sanders will be like "well shit, now that I can't eat at this restaurant, I am going to lobby hard for immigration reform and permanent protection for dreamers"??? Of course not. This isn't effective. This is just a feel good release for negative emotions. It feels good to strike back at people who you feel weakened and ineffective against. But that doesn't mean it is good policy or a way to win over people. At the end of the day, the important thing is votes, not patting yourself on the back. This is just a desperate attempt to feel empowered. I think some democrats I know see this as good, but they aren't thinking right. This isn't the kind of opposition stuff that wins people over. People cheer for it because want to finally feel like bad people are getting what they deserve. It is a bullshit way to feel empowered. But they aren't actually empowered. But a lot of people also think this is stupid. But the brainless people who retweet George Takei will probably love it. Gay cakes were a good rallying tower for conservatives because it was defending someone small (cake shop) vs someone big ("the liberal government"). This is taking the opposite, bullying approach. This is attacking someone when they are weak from a position of numbers. It doesn't pull sympathy from people. Well, it DOES. But it pulls from conservative sympathy, which is just so stupid from a democrat strategy perspective. Kids in cages has been a wonderful rallying cry for democrats because it is protecting children from the government. Protect damn near anything from the government and it is a win no matter what side you are on. People want to fight for the little guy. I am not inspired by bullying, even if I think the person being bullied is a shitbag.
I wasn’t expecting this much brutal on the left-wing Takei-retweeting activist front. It really puts me into your mindset about what’s going on, so many thanks!
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On June 26 2018 04:29 NewSunshine wrote:
I agree. I think it's dangerously easy for the Republicans to attack that kind of activism, and for other Democrats to disown it, but the kind of public protest put on display at the Red Hen, and what Maxine went out and called for, showed our government officials how disliked they are better than 1,000,000 people shouting into the void of Twitter. She has it right, if we're going to try and bring these people a dose of much-needed reality, do it to their face. Show them that people are upset with them. Make them face some form of kickback for their actions. Civility is overrated. Change has to come from somewhere, and it never comes from a place of comfort.
This is why they want it to stop and why people calling for 'civility' or claiming "the middle" are irrefutably helping the oppressors.
It works. ICE has had to temporarily shut down multiple facilities because people just refused to be "civil". Of course I find our immigration policy uncivil and those breaking laws to stop it the civil ones.
BTW I understand why people here are oblivious to this, but if you had any Black friends with family in the south you would know that there has always and still is places where Black people aren't welcome and won't be served or will be intentionally mistreated by service staff.
Hell there's bars within an hour drive in WA where on weekends black people aren't welcome (white supremacist biker gatherings). I was actually given the choice to stand for the national anthem or leave the bar not long ago. White people, especially Republicans live in a fantasy land where what's happening to them isn't a much more gentle reflection of the way they have treated others for the entirety of this country's history.
EDIT: Mohdoo is demonstrating that for us rather well right now.
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Would it be possible for democrats to run on galvanizing ethics rules from suggestions that can be ignored to actual requirements that cannot? It seems like a no brainer. Pruit and Devos anthics, son in law Kushner acting as secretary of state, Ivanka and Donald getting value for their companies. I've stated this before a lot but just the fact that they are using the public job to earn private money should be enough to remove them from their jobs, no matter their political views. Make public servants serve the public.
The current course from Democrats feels quite hopeless and I'm already coming to terms with another four years of Trump
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Predictably, Trump has now responded to Maxine and implied retaliation, once again showing the lack of civility that he embodies and encourages. Republicans chose this man to be president.
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I wonder if Trump talked his way through a few IQ questions if it would reveal a hidden intelligence or that he's even more stupid than we think?
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There is another problem that undercuts the civility argument, which is that the administration is taking advantage of it. Above are government provided photos of the facilities these kids are in. As you can see, they are staged. Reporters and Elected representatives are being denied access. People are growing less comfortable with acting like everything is normal. And it won’t get better any time soon.
Edit: I would note that Mattis just announced that they are building tent camps to house up to 20,000 unaccompanied minors in military bases. That should give anyone chills.
Edit 2: I’m sure everyone remembers all the time Trump advocated beating up protesters.
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Hollow nonsense. What Maxine called for is nonviolent protest. If he's hearing a promise to harm someone, it's because he spent his entire time on the campaign trail threatening to harm people he disagrees with. He's afraid of people actually standing up to him.
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On June 26 2018 04:29 NewSunshine wrote:
I agree. I think it's dangerously easy for the Republicans to attack that kind of activism, and for other Democrats to disown it, but the kind of public protest put on display at the Red Hen, and what Maxine went out and called for, showed our government officials how disliked they are better than 1,000,000 people shouting into the void of Twitter. She has it right, if we're going to try and bring these people a dose of much-needed reality, do it to their face. Show them that people are upset with them. Make them face some form of kickback for their actions. Civility is overrated. Change has to come from somewhere, and it never comes from a place of comfort.
I'd rather the dose of reality come by convicting more of them. might be hard to arrange, but it's a much more satisfying result. not sure what grounds can be found for some of them though.
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And he threw in the IQ jab for good measure, just in case we had forgotten that he has the biggest, bestest, most bigliest hands-- oops I meant IQ.
The sheer consistency with regards to his tweeting idiocy is baffling. That anyone thought someone who behaves like this could ever learn to be a decent president is nuts.
I'd really like the typical ethics we expect of presidents to be law, I'd vote for that above most other things at this point seeing how flagrantly someone can flout basic ethics as one of the most powerful people on the planet...
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On June 26 2018 04:45 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 04:29 NewSunshine wrote:
I agree. I think it's dangerously easy for the Republicans to attack that kind of activism, and for other Democrats to disown it, but the kind of public protest put on display at the Red Hen, and what Maxine went out and called for, showed our government officials how disliked they are better than 1,000,000 people shouting into the void of Twitter. She has it right, if we're going to try and bring these people a dose of much-needed reality, do it to their face. Show them that people are upset with them. Make them face some form of kickback for their actions. Civility is overrated. Change has to come from somewhere, and it never comes from a place of comfort. I'd rather the dose of reality come by convicting more of them. might be hard to arrange, but it's a much more satisfying result. not sure what grounds can be found for some of them though.
That would be nice, but the convictions and indictments that we've already gotten haven't done a thing. See this thread. Trump's defenders are unfazed by the trappings of reality. Everyone but the man Donald could be jailed and they wouldn't give 2 shits. They need to face focused public outrage, they need to face a real protest.
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Focused public outrage is the only check we have left. Congress and the Judicial are failing.
The reason Trump seems so much worse than standard Republicans is that he dispensed of the wisdom that suggested such blatant corruption and oppression would destabilize US society at large so it was imperative to keep it on the DL.
If there aren't signs of society destabilizing then it emboldens even more absurd actions. That's why the calls for civility from 'the left' have to stop.
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On June 26 2018 04:12 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 04:04 Nebuchad wrote:On June 26 2018 03:46 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:35 Mohdoo wrote:On June 26 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2018 02:40 Danglars wrote:On June 26 2018 02:14 Mohdoo wrote:
Democrat leadership embracing this idea of turning people away from restaurants would be among the dumbest things ever. It is really easy to make conservatives think they are being oppressed. Throwing fuel on that fire and bringing those people back to Trump when they may have said "ok, this is too much" about child camps is downright brain dead.
Maxine Water is so, so, so dumb. This thread isn’t very representative, but do you think Democrat voters aren’t ok with this by and large? I think you read more than glance through the thread, so are you in agreement with the excuses offered and that it’s a perfectly natural and perhaps deserved reaction to Trump’s recent actions/past actions? I don’t want to put words in your mouth about would you do//would you not judge those who do since you haven’t spoken out on the issue. Edit: That being said, civility has not yielded much for left leaning folks of late. We don't control any branch of the government. The only thing we can yield is more representation and that doesn't happen until November. Part of the issue is that people get frustrated and impatient when we have no mechanism for actually changing much. But on the other hand, if we look at kids in cages, that was a huge success. We didn't need to pass legislation because we could apply pressure other ways. Activism works, but it works in certain ways and for certain things. The stuff with harassing Sanders is a great example of the kind of shit that doesn't work. No, this kind of shit is exactly how the Democrat lost a billions seats to the Republicans. Civility has gotten the "left" nothing. I agree that we need a more tea-party'ish tint to our messaging that emphasizes a lack of willingness to compromise on core values. But the tea party did a great job at picking their battles. Conservatives have almost entirely abandoned any sort of anti-gay stuff from their messaging. It is all about abortion and immigration now. Good topics for them. We should similarly be focused on treating immigration children as humans and legalizing marijuana. At least IMO. But yelling at people in the Trump administration is not the ticket. Are you saying you think stuff like harassing Sanders is a good approach to rallying support? This isn't about picking battles. Of course they should run on medicare and marijuana and stuff like that rather than harassing Sanders. This isn't a battle, this is just what we're talking about today. Maxine Waters using Twitter to encourage that behavior makes it a part of democrat messaging. I'm not going to try to say people shouldn't find their own form of activism. I don't think harassing Sanders is productive, but I'll shrug it off unless it is being actively supported by elected democrats. My issue comes with Waters joining in. That supports "they think you're deplorable!" thinking.
That really doesn't matter. Whether it's part of the democratic messaging or not, it's still an issue for today and the three or four more days we'll talk about it. There is no question that nobody is going to run on it. It's not a battle.
What's interesting to me is that you've mostly made an argument on optics when it comes to this. The republican dude who might think that putting children in cages is not that cool, but would be reinvigorated by seeing some liberals be mean to Sarah Sanders and would therefore vote based on that.
If that person exists, we have to start from the premise that they're not too interested in politics in the first place, cause otherwise they would be able to see that their reasoning doesn't hold any water. One of the things that resonate the most with people who don't care too much about politics is strength. Now consider the situation with an optic of strength:
Democrats: Hey, republican administration, if you're going to put children in cages at the border, maybe fuck off?
The counterargument: Excuse me, you're not being very civil right now, bow your head.
Your proposition: Yes sir, we apologize and we will be more civil to you next time sir.
How about no? To this uninformed observer that you're concerned about, you project a lot of weakness, and the Danglars placeholder gets to project strength. You also make the position of putting children in cages more legitimate, because the people who are ready to defend this still get to be part of civil society in your opinion, which means their idea can't be that out there, can it, so maybe it's not that bad that they're doing it, so maybe I don't have to be that outraged by it.
We've had a situation recently where Donald Trump had to compromise: precisely the question of those children, on which he was getting demolished even by evangelicals. Here's what he didn't do: "okay, I value civil society and I side with my opponent's view that imprisoning children is bad, when the democrats say something that is right I follow them". Here's what you do instead: "The democrats were the reason why those children were imprisoned, I freed them. Also here are some people who have had a family member die because of illegal aliens, immigration is bad, I'm good."
This reaction is objectively stupid in terms of the factual argument you're making. It's also a strong reaction. It's going to work way better on the mind of the uninformed voter you're trying to reach than your attempt at keeping decorum would have.
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On June 26 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Focused public outrage is the only check we have left. Congress and the Judicial are failing.
The reason Trump seems so much worse than standard Republicans is that he dispensed of the wisdom that suggested such blatant corruption and oppression would destabilize US society at large so it was imperative to keep it on the DL.
If there aren't signs of society destabilizing then it emboldens even more absurd actions. That's why the calls for civility from 'the left' have to stop.
I think the argument is that denying someone service when they ask for dinner with their family is the most “focused” form of public outrage. Not all forms of protest were created equal after all.
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On June 26 2018 05:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2018 04:57 GreenHorizons wrote:
Focused public outrage is the only check we have left. Congress and the Judicial are failing.
The reason Trump seems so much worse than standard Republicans is that he dispensed of the wisdom that suggested such blatant corruption and oppression would destabilize US society at large so it was imperative to keep it on the DL.
If there aren't signs of society destabilizing then it emboldens even more absurd actions. That's why the calls for civility from 'the left' have to stop. I think the argument is that denying someone service when they ask for dinner with their family is the most “focused” form of public outrage. Not all forms of protest were created equal after all.
That was democracy in the workplace. Boss asked her employees what they wanted and they didn't want to serve her. That's not just great focused public outrage but a tiny positive step toward worker directed enterprises.
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EPT
