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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it?
You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that?
Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades.
And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway.
Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness.
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On July 28 2020 06:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it? You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that? Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades. And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway. Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness.
I suppose the remnants of our long gone civilization will comfort themselves that it was really hard for us to get the point of not doing enough.
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On July 28 2020 06:42 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 06:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it? You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that? Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades. And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway. Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness. I suppose the remnants of our long gone civilization will comfort themselves that it was really hard for us to get the point of not doing enough. Look at a real and immediate threat, that is not clearly visible, like Covid and look at how people respond to it, especially in the US.
Then ask yourself if it really is any wonder that no one gives a fuck about Climate Change ending the world at some point in the future.
At this point you can wonder if humanity even deserves to survive.
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Notre Dame university just withdrew as the first host site of the 2020 presidential debates.
Will we ever see Biden debate Trump?
https://news.nd.edu/news/notre-dame-withdraws-as-presidential-debate-host-site/
After consultation with Dr. Mark Fox, St. Joseph County deputy health officer, and with the unanimous support of the Executive Committee of the University’s Board of Trustees, Father Jenkins made what he called “this difficult decision because the necessary health precautions would have greatly diminished the educational value of hosting the debate on our campus.”
In a letter earlier today to the Notre Dame community, Father Jenkins said that “the inevitable reduction in student attendance in the debate hall, volunteer opportunities and ancillary educational events undermined the primary benefit of hosting — to provide our students with a meaningful opportunity to engage in the American political process.”
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Norway28866 Posts
On July 28 2020 06:42 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 06:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it? You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that? Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades. And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway. Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness. I suppose the remnants of our long gone civilization will comfort themselves that it was really hard for us to get the point of not doing enough.
Climate change isn't a binary destroys civilization if we don't do enough or doesn't destroy civilization if we do enough, how quickly we end up at what temperature increase makes a big difference in how severe the damages end up being. I certainly feel pessimistic about the whole ordeal, but 'displaces/kills 50 million in 30 years' is different from 'displaces/kills 150 mill in 30 years', etc.
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On July 28 2020 07:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 06:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 06:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it? You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that? Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades. And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway. Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness. I suppose the remnants of our long gone civilization will comfort themselves that it was really hard for us to get the point of not doing enough. Climate change isn't a binary destroys civilization if we don't do enough or doesn't destroy civilization if we do enough, how quickly we end up at what temperature increase makes a big difference in how severe the damages end up being. I certainly feel pessimistic about the whole ordeal, but 'displaces/kills 50 million in 30 years' is different from 'displaces/kills 150 mill in 30 years', etc.
"Different" might not matter that much if society can't handle either and it disrupts the food supply chain and/or the mass immigration triggers a global war over scarce and disparate resources.
The latter increasingly seems like the rationale behind US military spending frankly.
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On July 28 2020 07:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 06:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 06:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it? You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that? Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades. And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway. Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness. I suppose the remnants of our long gone civilization will comfort themselves that it was really hard for us to get the point of not doing enough. Climate change isn't a binary destroys civilization if we don't do enough or doesn't destroy civilization if we do enough, how quickly we end up at what temperature increase makes a big difference in how severe the damages end up being. I certainly feel pessimistic about the whole ordeal, but 'displaces/kills 50 million in 30 years' is different from 'displaces/kills 150 mill in 30 years', etc.
I was being way overdramatic and a little bit tongue in cheek.
The point is that climate change works in terms of tipping points, so not quite doing enough is pretty much equal to not coming close when it comes to pulling back from the brink.
On a related note, agreeing to sort out one aspect of climate change ina much longer time frame than scientists recommend is actually equal to a bunch of backward steps, not a forward step as was previously suggested. To make forward steps we need to accelerate the timetable so we aren't going way slower than we should. (really we are looking at the difference between 5 backward steps and 15 backward steps - or more accurately for every forward step we make our climate takes 5 steps towards catastrophe)
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On July 28 2020 07:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 07:14 Liquid`Drone wrote:On July 28 2020 06:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 06:26 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 06:05 Jockmcplop wrote:On July 28 2020 05:16 Biff The Understudy wrote:On July 28 2020 04:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 28 2020 03:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:
It's also quite ironic considering the absolute mountains of environmental regulations from the Obama administration Trump is scrapping down right now. Part of the problem with middling centrism is that it was so easy for Trump to undo decades of their progress with a stroke of his pen, because he's not so timid. EDIT: Also, as everyone agrees, this middling centrism is conservative as hell compared to other developed nations. You can easily be labeled an unrealistic radical for suggesting the primary obstacle between us and things like healthcare, child care, sick leave, parental leave, etc is our masochistic relationship with capitalism that even other primarily capitalist countries have recognized has to be mitigated with robust social nets the US is no where near implementing. Why don't you read that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administrationAnd let us be clear - I agree that it's not enough; no one on the planet is doing enough. But I can make the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward. What is the difference between a step forward and ten steps backward when we're on a timer and the stakes are the survival of the human race as we know it? You ask what the difference is between a step towards solving the problem and ten steps towards making it worse? Do you also approach your life like that? Obama regulations were years of extremely hard work, convincing, navigating through extremely difficult legislative processes against people who fought him tooth and nail at every step. It's been totally ruined and the US has lost crucial years if not decades. And you guys answer is that it doesn't matter because it's not enough anyway. Now, that's constructive. And the funniest part is that GH calls me an enabler after that. Talk of self awareness. I suppose the remnants of our long gone civilization will comfort themselves that it was really hard for us to get the point of not doing enough. Climate change isn't a binary destroys civilization if we don't do enough or doesn't destroy civilization if we do enough, how quickly we end up at what temperature increase makes a big difference in how severe the damages end up being. I certainly feel pessimistic about the whole ordeal, but 'displaces/kills 50 million in 30 years' is different from 'displaces/kills 150 mill in 30 years', etc. I was being way overdramatic and a little bit tongue in cheek. The point is that climate change works in terms of tipping points, so not quite doing enough is pretty much equal to not coming close when it comes to pulling back from the brink. On a related note, agreeing to sort out one aspect of climate change ina much longer time frame than scientists recommend is actually equal to a bunch of backward steps, not a forward step as was previously suggested. To make forward steps we need to accelerate the timetable so we aren't going way slower than we should. (really we are looking at the difference between 5 backward steps and 15 backward steps)
It's exactly the kind of placating of the liberal conscience that enables oligarchs to accelerate us towards unmitigated climate collapse while they are all patting themselves and each other on the back. This is the feeling I get every time I read about some billionaire "donating" couch change for a vanity project and it does the rounds in corporate media and the timelines on social media.
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Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL.
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On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL.
You know TL is a very international site, right?
If you live in Mumbai (or similar..) right now there is definitely 'doom' coming in <50y. And these people are going to be clamouring for American shores long before then.
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Has anyone seen anything to cooberate that some of the federal troops deployed on protestors are mercenaries from Blackwater legacy companies? That group was run by Betsy Devos's brother until convicted of war crimes in Iraq.
https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-responding-to-protesters-in-portland-employs-thousands-of-private-db137349f8b0
What has not been reported widely in the media, however, is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) unit that is coordinating the “crowd control” effort — an agency called the Federal Protective Service (FPS) — is composed largely of contract security personnel. Those contractors are being furnished to FPS by major private-sector security companies like Blackwater corporate descendant Triple Canopy as well as dozens of other private security firms.
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On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL.
Putting your fingers in your ears screaming lalala doesn't make reality go away.
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On July 28 2020 14:31 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL. You know TL is a very international site, right? If you live in Mumbai (or similar..) right now there is definitely 'doom' coming in <50y. And these people are going to be clamouring for American shores long before then.
Some parts of the world are going to be worse, some better, but people espousing that we're going to extinct the human race if we don't enact draconian measures to mitigate CO2 are insane. There's no other descriptor. That's par for the course though. There's always some doom du jour with every generation. Last generation was overpopulation. People love them their doom theology whether it's scientific, pseudo-scientific, or religious in nature. Some weird ass quirk of human nature or something.
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On July 28 2020 15:12 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL. Putting your fingers in your ears screaming lalala doesn't make reality go away.
Yeah, the human race going extinct or the world ending is the realist position here....lol.
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On July 28 2020 15:13 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 15:12 Amui wrote:On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL. Putting your fingers in your ears screaming lalala doesn't make reality go away. Yeah, the human race going extinct or the world ending is the realist position here....lol.
Not extinct most likely, just ecological collapse based on the best available data and scientific understanding of the world around us, vs I dunno, your gut?
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On July 28 2020 14:56 Starlightsun wrote:Has anyone seen anything to cooberate that some of the federal troops deployed on protestors are mercenaries from Blackwater legacy companies? That group was run by Betsy Devos's brother until convicted of war crimes in Iraq. https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-responding-to-protesters-in-portland-employs-thousands-of-private-db137349f8b0Show nested quote +What has not been reported widely in the media, however, is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) unit that is coordinating the “crowd control” effort — an agency called the Federal Protective Service (FPS) — is composed largely of contract security personnel. Those contractors are being furnished to FPS by major private-sector security companies like Blackwater corporate descendant Triple Canopy as well as dozens of other private security firms.
If true, that's some next level dystopian cyberpunk shit right there.
On July 28 2020 15:13 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 15:12 Amui wrote:On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL. Putting your fingers in your ears screaming lalala doesn't make reality go away. Yeah, the human race going extinct or the world ending is the realist position here....lol.
Cute strawmen aside, im not worried about the human race going extinct. What i worry about, is the global famine and refugee situation as greater regions of agriculture and livable land along the equator and coastal regions become unlivable due to increased temperatures and rising sea levels.
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On July 28 2020 15:50 plated.rawr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 14:56 Starlightsun wrote:Has anyone seen anything to cooberate that some of the federal troops deployed on protestors are mercenaries from Blackwater legacy companies? That group was run by Betsy Devos's brother until convicted of war crimes in Iraq. https://medium.com/@wkc6428/the-lead-federal-agency-responding-to-protesters-in-portland-employs-thousands-of-private-db137349f8b0What has not been reported widely in the media, however, is the fact that the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) unit that is coordinating the “crowd control” effort — an agency called the Federal Protective Service (FPS) — is composed largely of contract security personnel. Those contractors are being furnished to FPS by major private-sector security companies like Blackwater corporate descendant Triple Canopy as well as dozens of other private security firms.
If true, that's some next level dystopian cyberpunk shit right there. Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 15:13 Wegandi wrote:On July 28 2020 15:12 Amui wrote:On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL. Putting your fingers in your ears screaming lalala doesn't make reality go away. Yeah, the human race going extinct or the world ending is the realist position here....lol. Cute strawmen aside, im not worried about the human race going extinct. What i worry about, is the global famine and refugee situation as greater regions of agriculture and livable land along the equator and coastal regions become unlivable due to increased temperatures and rising sea levels.
Strawman eh? I'm literally using the words by a good few posters here. Don't be daft. I'm not worried about food supplies as that isn't even part of the fuss about it (likely a wash of arable land, but with better soil nutrition leading to higher yields). Come on folks. Do your research if you're going to come with that non-sense. The worst case effects are coastal land-loss / flooding. That's bad, but that's not end of the world or an ELE. The people peddling doom theology only do your own cause a disservice by being so blatantly wrong and turning huge parts of the population away from that side of the argument.
Not even the worst-case scientific models come close to such a hypothesis. Can we just call the people peddling that shit crackpots and move on? What dubious reckoning are the socialists next going to try and use to peddle their wares? Last generation was overpopulation mythos. I wonder what the next generation will use when "climate catastrophe" comes and goes with a blip.
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On July 28 2020 15:38 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2020 15:13 Wegandi wrote:On July 28 2020 15:12 Amui wrote:On July 28 2020 14:17 Wegandi wrote:
Are we back to climate doom theology again? No one respectable holds that insane position. At times I feel like I'm reading the lefts version of R/TheDonald when I come to TL. Putting your fingers in your ears screaming lalala doesn't make reality go away. Yeah, the human race going extinct or the world ending is the realist position here....lol. Not extinct most likely, just ecological collapse based on the best available data and scientific understanding of the world around us, vs I dunno, your gut?
You can stop pretending that your position of ecological disaster and doom is science-based.
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EPT
