US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2476

On July 03 2020 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote:

Remember when xDaunt would go on his spiels about the ancient west and western culture? How colonization was good for Africa?

It's very much related to the importance of identity regarding cultural appropriation vs appreciation discussion you and ChristianS were having prompted by wegandi's description of cultural (and other) impacts of colonizing North America.

On July 03 2020 08:20 IgnE wrote:
Have any of you done or seen a statistical analysis of how unlikely it would have to be for Trump not to have some item on his website selling for $88? How many items does he sell? What's the price range? How freely does the last digit vary? Without more evidence it looks very much like you guys are engaging in some Beautiful Mind numerology.

On July 03 2020 08:31 Wombat_NI wrote:
If you’re some person on Etsy with zero knowledge of such things selling cute handmade Dragoon plushies that cost 88 dollar, I’m not reading that as a dog whistle.

If you’re the PotUS store, who’ve been accused of white supremacy would you at least avoid the most well-known of dog whistles studiously as a matter of course

On July 03 2020 08:12 IgnE wrote:


So is Trump appropriating Nazi culture? Are the neo-nazis mad at him for this? You need to do a bit more than gesture here, because everything is connected to everything, the question is what are you specifically driving at with this.

On July 03 2020 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote:


Both. Trump's campaign loves to "troll" with plausibly deniable nazi references. The $88 baseball, the white power RT, the antifa symbol on FB, etc. It's a brilliant 'troll' in that the advice is usually to ignore it and let it proliferate unchecked else risk falling into the trap of being called overly sensitive or 'feeding the troll'.

So the result is increasingly overt references with decreasing opposition. Then it gets normalized and people start acting on their beliefs.

On July 03 2020 08:30 Nevuk wrote:
Why would he even hear about the prices of stuff on his store? To me the only offensive thing about the price is that the baseball is probably only worth 2$

On July 03 2020 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:


I was pointing out how the line that runs through xDaunt's appeals to ancient/western culture, US/Nazi/Roman symbols of empire, colonization, and cultural appropriation is very much drawn in the ink of identity.

I agree with your ultimate reasoning for why the identity enjoying hegemonic domination is white by a confluence of happenstance (as well as methodical efforts) and could be another identity under different circumstances.

We disagree (afaik) on how that should be confronted and reconciled with our material conditions. I'd argue in large part due to the differences in our material conditions highlighted by the exchange on truncheons and plans.

Every time I talk about that I have to deal with a slew of posts questioning the foundation instead of the structure on top of it (where we disagree). So that's why I encouraged you and ChristianS to continue pouring and solidifying the foundation and suggested Falling could help with that. So that whether people agree with the foundation or not the discussion could continue with everyone understanding the foundation (or not opining directly).

I'll also just reiterate it, since it's happening.

On July 03 2020 08:45 Nevuk wrote:
If we are going to talk dog whistles to Nazis, let's use the latest one that is really hard not to see and HAD to have been approved by Trump, rather than his merch store.

(Just a screenshot of trump's tweet, as I don't want to link directly to it)
https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/1278151799648784384

Also has HH in the middle and is still up.

On July 03 2020 08:45 Nevuk wrote:
If we are going to talk dog whistles to Nazis, let's use the latest one that is really hard not to see and HAD to have been approved by Trump, rather than his merch store.

(Just a screenshot of trump's tweet, as I don't want to link directly to it)
https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/1278151799648784384

Also has HH in the middle and is still up.

On July 03 2020 08:53 Mohdoo wrote:


Can you explain the significance?

On July 03 2020 08:57 IgnE wrote:


This is a serious question: how are you distinguishing this from coincidence? Have you looked at data on what percentage of all tweets are 14 words? How many tweets has Trump ever written and what % of those are 14 words? You can’t stop deranged people from looking for meaning in chance, but it’s madness to try and combat them on their turf. You don’t need to do this shit to make a case that Trump is bad for America, and I really doubt it convinces anyone who is not already in the choir.

On July 03 2020 08:53 IgnE wrote:


Actually what’s been happening is that the symbols are increasingly covert, buried, and barely distinguishable from chance, with constant outrage and opposition from the media. The trolls win when the constant exaggeration erodes trust. We need to stop exaggerating (in effect, lying) because people stop listening to you when they identify that you are lying.

I am not sure what you mean by “foundations” and all that, but I’d love for you to just lay out what you think.

On July 03 2020 09:04 GreenHorizons wrote:


I'd agree regarding the bastardization of identity politics in liberal circles which I characterized as the "capitalism unfairly excluded us/them, we/they want in" argument group generally.

My issue is that class reductionism politics (which I'd argue you often articulate) irresponsibly conflates the two and points to the blurriness between them for justification.

The foundation I'm talking about is basically class consciousness in a Marxist sense (and the framing that comes with it), which I think you'd agree has been all but obliterated in the US (and much of the west generally). I'm saying I'm tired of trying to explain it the best ways I know how and urging you (someone who knows this stuff extremely well) and ChristianS (someone genuinely learning it/showing familiarity) to continue to flush it out alongside his recognition of the importance of identity which he also perceives your argument is somewhat lacking. Falling recognized this dynamic (while disagreeing with the marxist framing itself) and I was hoping Falling could help facilitate the discussion in such a way we could move forward with that in mind.