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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Lmui
Canada6215 Posts
Reddit found it was a stock image. As much as there's resemblance I dont think it was too intentional. I hope anyways. Could they have picked a better image? Maybe. As far as nazi symbolism, that's probably because of the high prevalence of racism already in the administration | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:02 GreenHorizons wrote: Remember when xDaunt would go on his spiels about the ancient west and western culture? How colonization was good for Africa? It's very much related to the importance of identity regarding cultural appropriation vs appreciation discussion you and ChristianS were having prompted by wegandi's description of cultural (and other) impacts of colonizing North America. So is Trump appropriating Nazi culture? Are the neo-nazis mad at him for this? You need to do a bit more than gesture here, because everything is connected to everything, the question is what are you specifically driving at with this. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26070 Posts
Not that it appeared at that price, that it’s still there at that price. Also all that other stuff. I used to spend quite a lot of time in online spaces talking to overt fascists. One being a guy called Mike Enoch who is like a semi-prominent figure in that YouTube sphere now. Anyway without going too far down that particular rabbit hole it’s not just the lefties pointing out dogwhistling, if a fascist thinks you’re ripe for conversion they’ll tell you it too. To paraphrase ‘we’ll throw 88s and the 14 words and if the left point it out we’ll make them out to be hysterical and overreacting to a few deniable incidents of coincidence. But we’ll know what the message means.’ | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26070 Posts
The more virulent sorts now don’t like him for not being fascist enough and his stance on Israel, but I can’t really comment on how the wider far right feel about him currently. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26070 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:20 IgnE wrote: Have any of you done or seen a statistical analysis of how unlikely it would have to be for Trump not to have some item on his website selling for $88? How many items does he sell? What's the price range? How freely does the last digit vary? Without more evidence it looks very much like you guys are engaging in some Beautiful Mind numerology. It’s not that he has items selling for that in his store. Presumably somebody has pointed out that symbolism and it’s not gone down to 87 or up to 89 dollars. Must be a really accurately priced baseball. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26070 Posts
If you’re the PotUS store, who’ve been accused of white supremacy would you at least avoid the most well-known of dog whistles studiously as a matter of course | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:31 Wombat_NI wrote: If you’re some person on Etsy with zero knowledge of such things selling cute handmade Dragoon plushies that cost 88 dollar, I’m not reading that as a dog whistle. If you’re the PotUS store, who’ve been accused of white supremacy would you at least avoid the most well-known of dog whistles studiously as a matter of course Ah yes. Trump the hyper-competent. So does the order to keep the baseball at $88 but nothing else come directly from Trump? from his handlers? or did some e-store jagoff manager take Nazi initiative? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23484 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:12 IgnE wrote: So is Trump appropriating Nazi culture? Are the neo-nazis mad at him for this? You need to do a bit more than gesture here, because everything is connected to everything, the question is what are you specifically driving at with this. I was pointing out how the line that runs through xDaunt's appeals to ancient/western culture, US/Nazi/Roman symbols of empire, colonization, and cultural appropriation is very much drawn in the ink of identity. I agree with your ultimate reasoning for why the identity enjoying hegemonic domination is white by a confluence of happenstance (as well as methodical efforts) and could be another identity under different circumstances. We disagree (afaik) on how that should be confronted and reconciled with our material conditions. I'd argue in large part due to the differences in our material conditions highlighted by the exchange on truncheons and plans. Every time I talk about that I have to deal with a slew of posts questioning the foundation instead of the structure on top of it (where we disagree). So that's why I encouraged you and ChristianS to continue pouring and solidifying the foundation and suggested Falling could help with that. So that whether people agree with the foundation or not the discussion could continue with everyone understanding the foundation (or not opining directly). I'll also just reiterate it, since it's happening. On July 03 2020 05:52 GreenHorizons wrote: Both. Trump's campaign loves to "troll" with plausibly deniable nazi references. The $88 baseball, the white power RT, the antifa symbol on FB, etc. It's a brilliant 'troll' in that the advice is usually to ignore it and let it proliferate unchecked else risk falling into the trap of being called overly sensitive or 'feeding the troll'. So the result is increasingly overt references with decreasing opposition. Then it gets normalized and people start acting on their beliefs. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26070 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:30 Nevuk wrote: Why would he even hear about the prices of stuff on his store? To me the only offensive thing about the price is that the baseball is probably only worth 2$ Why wouldn’t the most thin-skinned and vain man on the planet not be at least somewhat aware of these things? But yes he’s probably not micromanaging his store, absolutely. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23484 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
(Just a screenshot of trump's tweet, as I don't want to link directly to it) Also has HH in the middle and is still up. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote: I was pointing out how the line that runs through xDaunt's appeals to ancient/western culture, US/Nazi/Roman symbols of empire, colonization, and cultural appropriation is very much drawn in the ink of identity. I agree with your ultimate reasoning for why the identity enjoying hegemonic domination is white by a confluence of happenstance (as well as methodical efforts) and could be another identity under different circumstances. We disagree (afaik) on how that should be confronted and reconciled with our material conditions. I'd argue in large part due to the differences in our material conditions highlighted by the exchange on truncheons and plans. Every time I talk about that I have to deal with a slew of posts questioning the foundation instead of the structure on top of it (where we disagree). So that's why I encouraged you and ChristianS to continue pouring and solidifying the foundation and suggested Falling could help with that. So that whether people agree with the foundation or not the discussion could continue with everyone understanding the foundation (or not opining directly). I'll also just reiterate it, since it's happening. Actually what’s been happening is that the symbols are increasingly covert, buried, and barely distinguishable from chance, with constant outrage and opposition from the media. The trolls win when the constant exaggeration erodes trust. We need to stop exaggerating (in effect, lying) because people stop listening to you when they identify that you are lying. I am not sure what you mean by “foundations” and all that, but I’d love for you to just lay out what you think. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15725 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:45 Nevuk wrote: If we are going to talk dog whistles to Nazis, let's use the latest one that is really hard not to see and HAD to have been approved by Trump, rather than his merch store. (Just a screenshot of trump's tweet, as I don't want to link directly to it) https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/1278151799648784384 Also has HH in the middle and is still up. Can you explain the significance? | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:45 Nevuk wrote: If we are going to talk dog whistles to Nazis, let's use the latest one that is really hard not to see and HAD to have been approved by Trump, rather than his merch store. (Just a screenshot of trump's tweet, as I don't want to link directly to it) https://twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/1278151799648784384 Also has HH in the middle and is still up. This is a serious question: how are you distinguishing this from coincidence? Have you looked at data on what percentage of all tweets are 14 words? How many tweets has Trump ever written and what % of those are 14 words? You can’t stop deranged people from looking for meaning in chance, but it’s madness to try and combat them on their turf. You don’t need to do this shit to make a case that Trump is bad for America, and I really doubt it convinces anyone who is not already in the choir. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
You know the 14/88 Nazi symbology? It comes from the '14' words made by David Lane, and 88 represents the 8th letter of the alphabet twice, "H H", for "Heil Hitler". It's super common among white supremacists. 14, 88 are references to those two things for white supremacists that they can use as dog whistles in public. The 14 words: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." Trump's tweet is 14 words long, expresses a similar message, and has the letters "H H" capitalized in the middle, starting on the 8th word. It's also 88 characters long, including the spaces. On July 03 2020 08:57 IgnE wrote: This is a serious question: how are you distinguishing this from coincidence? Have you looked at data on what percentage of all tweets are 14 words? How many tweets has Trump ever written and what % of those are 14 words? You can’t stop deranged people from looking for meaning in chance, but it’s madness to try and combat them on their turf. You don’t need to do this shit to make a case that Trump is bad for America, and I really doubt it convinces anyone who is not already in the choir. You can't. That's the point of using that coding, to give a fig leaf of plausible deniability. If he tweeted "1488!" it still wouldn't be incontrovertible proof, because it's convoluted to explain and no one besides white supremacists and people educated on their history really knows what it means. The fact it's still up is the more troubling part, not that he (or whoever was on his twitter) initially tweeted it. It's the pattern of this behavior, especially recently (given the Facebook ads that had 88 versions and used nazi symbols), that is the sign, rather than a single incident. His merch store and facebook ads I can see him legitimately not knowing about, but his twitter? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23484 Posts
On July 03 2020 08:53 IgnE wrote: Actually what’s been happening is that the symbols are increasingly covert, buried, and barely distinguishable from chance, with constant outrage and opposition from the media. The trolls win when the constant exaggeration erodes trust. We need to stop exaggerating (in effect, lying) because people stop listening to you when they identify that you are lying. I am not sure what you mean by “foundations” and all that, but I’d love for you to just lay out what you think. I'd agree regarding the bastardization of identity politics in liberal circles which I characterized as the "capitalism unfairly excluded us/them, we/they want in" argument group generally. My issue is that class reductionism politics (which I'd argue you often articulate) irresponsibly conflates the two and points to the blurriness between them for justification. The foundation I'm talking about is basically class consciousness in a Marxist sense (and the framing that comes with it), which I think you'd agree has been all but obliterated in the US (and much of the west generally). I'm saying I'm tired of trying to explain it the best ways I know how and urging you (someone who knows this stuff extremely well) and ChristianS (someone genuinely learning it/showing familiarity) to continue to flush it out alongside his recognition of the importance of identity which he also perceives your argument is somewhat lacking. Falling recognized this dynamic (while disagreeing with the marxist framing itself) and I was hoping Falling could help facilitate the discussion in such a way we could move forward with that in mind. | ||
Falling
Canada11372 Posts
Every time this stuff comes out it's as though its some sort of secret coded message that only particularly nefarious people would know. But it's always reported on and blasted to the stratosphere from the very people that aren't supposed to hear it. So the Enigma Code's been cracked a long time ago and it's still being used despite every evidence that it's being cracked? Can't be a dog whistle- either it's a regular whistle or the code is imagined by uncharitable interpretations. As for the positioning of the eagle. Reminds me more of certain groups analyzing the album art for pagan iconography and the all-seeing eye (any time a photo is taking where one eye is hidden, was evidence of Egyptian paganism). Some milquetoast artist standing on a white chair- trace the shape of the chair legs, it forms a pagan symbol! (no joke). | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 03 2020 09:04 GreenHorizons wrote: I'd agree regarding the bastardization of identity politics in liberal circles which I characterized as the "capitalism unfairly excluded us/them, we/they want in" argument group generally. My issue is that class reductionism politics (which I'd argue you often articulate) irresponsibly conflates the two and points to the blurriness between them for justification. The foundation I'm talking about is basically class consciousness in a Marxist sense (and the framing that comes with it), which I think you'd agree has been all but obliterated in the US (and much of the west generally). I'm saying I'm tired of trying to explain it the best ways I know how and urging you (someone who knows this stuff extremely well) and ChristianS (someone genuinely learning it/showing familiarity) to continue to flush it out alongside his recognition of the importance of identity which he also perceives your argument is somewhat lacking. Falling recognized this dynamic (while disagreeing with the marxist framing itself) and I was hoping Falling could help facilitate the discussion in such a way we could move forward with that in mind. This is all too abstract. I want to know about a concrete statement you agree or disagree with so that the ensuing discussion is tied to something relevant in the thread. Now or later. | ||
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