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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Let's say it one more time for those who are bit slow.
Jewish population 1948, Present (all numbers grabbed from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries)
Morocco 250000, 2000 = ethnic cleansing
Algeria 140000, <50 = ethnic cleansing
Tunisia 50000, 1500 = ethnic cleansing
Libya 35000, 0 = ethnic cleansing
Iraq 135000, 5-7 = ethnic cleansing
Egypt 75000, 40 = ethnic cleansing
Yemen and Aden 53000, 50 = ethnic cleansing
Syria 15000, 17 = ethnic cleansing
Lebanon 5000, 100 = ethnic cleansing
Bahrain 550, 37 = ethnic cleansing
Sudan 350, 0 = ethnic cleansing
Afghanistan 5000, 1 = ethnic cleansing
Iran 65232 (in 1956), 8756 = ethnic cleansing
Turkey 80000, 17300 = ethnic cleansing
Palestinian Population 1948, Present
Palestinian Territories 1292000, 4543126 = not an ethnic cleansing
In the supposed ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people since the start of Israel, the Arab population has almost quadrupled. In that same time period, the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people from all over the middle east and nearby regions is damn near complete. Yet, for some reason, people look at the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people and decry it. Those same people seem awfully quiet on the ethnic cleansing that happened everywhere else, leaving Jewish people only one safe haven in the region. And now, those same people want to disempower the Jewish people in Israel while their neighbors (and many of the Palestinian) do not recognize Israel as a valid country. Some of those neighbors have stated goals to eliminate it completely.
If you look at what has happened in the middle east and still want to point to Israel being the problem, then you are pro-genocide. So, before you criticize Israel more, at least look at what has actually happened in the region. Look at the cold hard facts. Don't just believe the bullshit the media tells you because Israel is the country preventing genocide, not the one doing it.
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On July 03 2020 05:57 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 05:43 Danglars wrote:![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/WWJkc3P.png) Do you have news if Pelosi is "creepy" too? "Completely nuts?" "Weird?" Yes, it's common. This is a symbol of a position. Not a person. Nice try though.
Oh, you want to make a distinction about the position. So whoever made that the emblem did so knowingly, huh? Wow, this conspiracy runs deeeeeeep.
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On July 03 2020 06:00 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 05:57 Artisreal wrote:On July 03 2020 05:43 Danglars wrote:Do you have news if Pelosi is "creepy" too? "Completely nuts?" "Weird?" Yes, it's common. This is a symbol of a position. Not a person. Nice try though. Oh, you want to make a distinction about the position. So whoever made that the emblem did so knowingly, huh? Wow, this conspiracy runs deeeeeeep.
What do you mean by that? Did what knowingly? And what conspiracy?
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Northern Ireland26068 Posts
Fucking hell I thought you guys were joking about the baseball...
Sigh. Wonder if there’s an atypical number of things costing 14 dollars then we can complete a nice dog whistling set.
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I mean, they're pretty close. It's clearly the case that the eagle-and-globe motif is used as a symbol of US power. Its also the case that this is a bit problematic.
I don't doubt the Trump usage is leaning more heavily and intentionally on the Nazi background, but if you show those three symbols to a random Martian, the speaker's is not significantly different.
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On July 03 2020 05:57 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 05:43 Danglars wrote:Do you have news if Pelosi is "creepy" too? "Completely nuts?" "Weird?" Yes, it's common. This is a symbol of a position. Not a person. Nice try though.
I mean I feel like the whole point is whether or not the bird thing is just Nazi or widely used for other stuff. Since it appears to be used for other stuff (though I kinda think maybe we should just not use that lol), I see it as benign. But I do agree with GH that Trump's campaign loves to get super close to bad. And then every now and then just be straight up terrible like RT'ing white power.
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On July 03 2020 06:45 Belisarius wrote:
I mean, they're pretty close. It's clearly the case that the eagle-and-globe motif is used as a symbol of US power. Its also the case that this is a bit problematic.
I don't doubt the Trump usage is leaning more heavily and intentionally on the Nazi background, but if you show those three symbols to a random Martian, the speaker's is not significantly different.
I've talked about it before but it's also important to note that Nazis drew a lot of inspiration and material support from the US (before Pearl Harbor specifically). It's really more likely that the Nazi symbology was inspired by ours and then reintegrated here by the type of Trump supporters that show up to his rallies and such with SS bolts and other neonazi symbols/signals mixed with US iconography.
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It needs repeating that Nazi eagles always face right (that is our right ->). The eagle in Trump’s t-shirt does that. Pelosi’s eagle does not, Paul Ryan’s eagle does not, Germany’s eagle does not.
The thing is that if you actually met a Neo-Nazi, they’d know exactly what that symbol is. That’s the point of iconography.
The problem is when you have so much Nazi iconography that the plausible deniability goes away. It’s sort of like wearing red Doc Martens, maybe you might just like the colour but that being the only reason becomes far less believable if you also really like the number 14 and 88.
Funnily enough, wearing red Doc Martens in Russia will probably get you bashed by Neo-Nazis unless you are able to convince them that you’re one of them.
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On July 03 2020 06:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 06:45 Belisarius wrote:
I mean, they're pretty close. It's clearly the case that the eagle-and-globe motif is used as a symbol of US power. Its also the case that this is a bit problematic.
I don't doubt the Trump usage is leaning more heavily and intentionally on the Nazi background, but if you show those three symbols to a random Martian, the speaker's is not significantly different. I've talked about it before but it's also important to note that Nazis drew a lot of inspiration and material support from the US (before Pearl Harbor specifically). It's really more likely that the Nazi symbology was inspired by ours and then reintegrated here by the type of Trump supporters that show up to his rallies and such with SS bolts and other neonazi symbols/signals mixed with US iconography.
Fascistic symbology like the noble eagle and the sharp, yet plain weapon(s) have strong definite roots that can be traced to the origin of empire as understood in the Western historical canon. The first step is usually placed at Rome, but I think it goes back further than that given that the Romans were expert cultural thieves just like we are.
Edit: and to add to Stalker's point, the "you'll know it when you see it" small detail differentiation among the symbols used by contemporary neo-nazis has become another feature of the feedback loop that feeds the group's growth. It's a way to hide in plain sight and encourage the game playing that justifies the individual fascist's project.
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On July 03 2020 07:12 StalkerTL wrote:
It needs repeating that Nazi eagles always face right (that is our right ->). The eagle in Trump’s t-shirt does that. Pelosi’s eagle does not, Paul Ryan’s eagle does not, Germany’s eagle does not.
The thing is that if you actually met a Neo-Nazi, they’d know exactly what that symbol is. That’s the point of iconography.
The problem is when you have so much Nazi iconography that the plausible deniability goes away. It’s sort of like wearing red Doc Martens, maybe you might just like the colour but that being the only reason becomes far less believable if you also really like the number 14 and 88.
Funnily enough, wearing red Doc Martens in Russia will probably get you bashed by Neo-Nazis unless you are able to convince them that you’re one of them.
I shouldn't be able to find a counterexample by just going to wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_symbolism
I wish people would stop exaggerating, especially when it's so easy to disconfirm your own statements.
Such incredible meaning hidden in that left or right.
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Yeah I dont think the eagle is the best example, but its important to note that whether hidden meaning is there is less important than the game that is played over that question as it travels among conversations and interactions. 88 and the a-okay come to mind as more fitting, these little expressions become ways that lost people can feel found by belonging to a group of people like them who all have to say the password to make it in the door.
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On July 03 2020 07:37 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 07:12 StalkerTL wrote:
It needs repeating that Nazi eagles always face right (that is our right ->). The eagle in Trump’s t-shirt does that. Pelosi’s eagle does not, Paul Ryan’s eagle does not, Germany’s eagle does not.
The thing is that if you actually met a Neo-Nazi, they’d know exactly what that symbol is. That’s the point of iconography.
The problem is when you have so much Nazi iconography that the plausible deniability goes away. It’s sort of like wearing red Doc Martens, maybe you might just like the colour but that being the only reason becomes far less believable if you also really like the number 14 and 88.
Funnily enough, wearing red Doc Martens in Russia will probably get you bashed by Neo-Nazis unless you are able to convince them that you’re one of them. I shouldn't be able to find a counterexample by just going to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_symbolismI wish people would stop exaggerating, especially when it's so easy to disconfirm your own statements. Such incredible meaning hidden in that left or right.
Yeah that’s the symbol of the Reich when it existed. The actual Nazi Party symbol faces right.
So yes there is incredible meaning in the symbology when you add two and two together. These things aren’t seen in a vacuum.
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On July 03 2020 07:43 farvacola wrote:
Yeah I dont think the eagle is the best example, but its important to note that whether hidden meaning is there is less important than the game that is played over that question as it travels among conversations and interactions. 88 and the a-okay come to mind as more fitting, these little expressions become ways that lost people can feel found by belonging to a group of people like them who all have to say the password to make it in the door.
Well the eagle has at least a two thousand year history of empire as you said. What are we really talking about here? It looks like we are seeing Nazis in the dark. Unless having any sense of national unity and belonging is deep down pretty a pretty Nazi sentiment. This constant "media who cried Nazi" schtick is counterproductive and we've got people uncritically reproducing it here. So some neo-Nazis somewhere take solace in generic imperial symbols, including symbols with a long history in America. So what? What does this change?
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On July 03 2020 07:52 StalkerTL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 07:37 IgnE wrote:On July 03 2020 07:12 StalkerTL wrote:
It needs repeating that Nazi eagles always face right (that is our right ->). The eagle in Trump’s t-shirt does that. Pelosi’s eagle does not, Paul Ryan’s eagle does not, Germany’s eagle does not.
The thing is that if you actually met a Neo-Nazi, they’d know exactly what that symbol is. That’s the point of iconography.
The problem is when you have so much Nazi iconography that the plausible deniability goes away. It’s sort of like wearing red Doc Martens, maybe you might just like the colour but that being the only reason becomes far less believable if you also really like the number 14 and 88.
Funnily enough, wearing red Doc Martens in Russia will probably get you bashed by Neo-Nazis unless you are able to convince them that you’re one of them. I shouldn't be able to find a counterexample by just going to wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_symbolismI wish people would stop exaggerating, especially when it's so easy to disconfirm your own statements. Such incredible meaning hidden in that left or right. Yeah that’s the symbol of the Reich when it existed. The actual Nazi Party symbol faces right. So yes there is incredible meaning in the symbology.
You are really reaching dude. The eagle points left or right on a bunch of Nazi era symbols ranging from the Navy to the Army to the party to whatever.
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Well that can go in a number of different directions, a topical and timely one might be the extent to which the symbols used to define and coordinate the police (and the military to a lesser extent, oddly enough) could be understood as too deeply embedded in the structures that empower them to efficiently carry out the wrong kinds of violence such that “defund the police” takes on a new kind of emergent necessity. There’s hot fascism involved in how this nation regards the police and I agree with you to the extent you’re saying the focus should not be on overtly Nazi gestures or symbols.
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On July 03 2020 07:53 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 07:43 farvacola wrote:
Yeah I dont think the eagle is the best example, but its important to note that whether hidden meaning is there is less important than the game that is played over that question as it travels among conversations and interactions. 88 and the a-okay come to mind as more fitting, these little expressions become ways that lost people can feel found by belonging to a group of people like them who all have to say the password to make it in the door. Well the eagle has at least a two thousand year history of empire as you said. What are we really talking about here? It looks like we are seeing Nazis in the dark. Unless having any sense of national unity and belonging is deep down pretty a pretty Nazi sentiment. This constant "media who cried Nazi" schtick is counterproductive and we've got people uncritically reproducing it here. So some neo-Nazis somewhere take solace in generic imperial symbols, including symbols with a long history in America. So what? What does this change?
Remember when xDaunt would go on his spiels about the ancient west and western culture? How colonization was good for Africa?
It's very much related to the importance of identity regarding cultural appropriation vs appreciation discussion you and ChristianS were having prompted by wegandi's description of cultural (and other) impacts of colonizing North America.
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I personally detest American symbols and actively avoid wearing American-themed shit. All I am saying is that that doesn't mean people who do wear it are Nazis.
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On July 03 2020 04:49 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 02:21 farvacola wrote:
Haha, that coming from the executive editor of the Washington Times is rich as fuck, where’s his tweets about swastika bearing neo nazis praising Trump? Oh yeah, folks like Mandel find Black people and Palestinians far scarier, forgot that.
And the correct term isn’t radical, Danglars, it’s reactionary. Ideally, you can criticize both. In many cases, you can just say "what about these neo nazis over here" and move on. (and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've said exactly zero about these kinds of chants, doing the whataboutism routine instead) And for your information, he's been relentlessly critical of Trump for not doing enough about the alt right/neo nazis, and the far right in general. He's assigned blame on right-wing figures for more liberally than I would. But y'know narrative and all. Show nested quote +On July 03 2020 04:16 Nouar wrote:On July 03 2020 02:11 Danglars wrote:On July 03 2020 01:11 maybenexttime wrote:On July 02 2020 18:00 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:On July 01 2020 23:31 stilt wrote:
Weird, Israel and the USA are currently occupying, dismantling and displacing the inhabitants of a nation which is borderline a genocide like the indians and no one bats an eye.
That's pretty ironic considering how everyone was super eager of doing "justice" one month ago. There's plenty of ironies in the BLM movement. Electronics companies putting out words of support for the black community on social media whilst using battery components mined in Africa by children as young as six? https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/oct/12/phone-misery-children-congo-cobalt-mines-drcBut any sane person would agree what is going on in Palestine is a genocide.It's just posting/saying things negative about Israel may get you in trouble.Oddly enough several corporations in the UK and the BBC itself have been distancing themselves from BLM after 'anti-semitic' remarks.I don't know if this has spread elsewhere yet. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/01/bbc-tells-staff-not-wear-black-lives-matters-badges-on-air/ What is happening in Palestine does not meet the definition of a genocide in any way. Worst genocide ever, considering the population growth rate identifying as "palestinian refugees." But I'm pretty radical on this subject. BLM protests have stoked anti-semitism under the guise of attacking Israel state policy, and it's seen in what happens in these protests: + Show Spoiler + To be fair, how are you exactly expecting palestinians to behave when they see Israel breaking the law at every corner with annexions, illegal settlements etc etc. It has been going on for dozens of years with support from the state and the US, you can't seriously expect them to just ask peacefully for "please can we just start the peace process again ? Doesn't matter if we have been shafted for the last 50y, we will still stick our asses front and trust in the process !" Annexations have occured after wars and war crimes directed against Israel, and the "illegal settlements" are a gray area of bad state policy meets bending the rules unfairly. I wouldn't expect Israel to have behaved in such a good manner, such as the balance shows, when Palestinians rain down missiles and dig tunnels to kill Israeli citizens. I have long since given up hoping to persuade the center-left and far-left here, such that I expect no change in their opinions until it's their houses targeted with rockets and the families of their children's murderers rewarded with cash prizes. Period. Given that it's unlikely to happen, I expect them to hold Israel to unrealistic standards and ignore or whitewash Palestinian aggressive acts until the next century. And next time Middle Eastern nations make surprise war upon Israel, and take land cessations to be juicy new missile launch sites, stop complaining about Israel building settlements on the new land. If the international community demanded anything similar to what they've done with Israel as Palestine, we might have had peace rolling for thirty years now.
Both positions are known, so there is no need to start the whole discussion again, I'll just point out that in a conflict, it is the duty of the stronger party to deal with the lesser one to bring peace (Israel is clearly the stronger party in the region as all the previous wars have shown). Israel has done no such thing, and has not given even a minor incentive to the other party to lessen their aggression in decades. When it tried to do so, its leader was assassinated. On the contrary, at every step they try to infuriate the palestinians by trampling on agreements and leading to intifadas. There's no need to go down the rabbit hole of the reasons for OLP failures and Hamas prevalence.
It's too useful as a political tool to keep the country on its toes so it stays under your grasp and have it be united against a common threat (and getting help from abroad as well. US aid is their lifeline, if Israel is not threatened constantly, it might actually lower aid and thus, safety level/international leverage).
Israel's survival is not on the line. Playing victims is beneficial to them. It is a smart but heartless policy, thus earning my disgust, as a soldier myself. The end goal should be peace, not oppression. Clearly not the case here.
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There's better examples of Trump's nazi coding than the eagle, like his recent 14 words tweet, which had two words starting with h h directly in the middle of it, or the facebook ads. The eagle is a reach.
On July 03 2020 01:11 maybenexttime wrote:What is happening in Palestine does not meet the definition of a genocide in any way.
Genocide has some really broad definitions, so I wouldn't be this certain about that. I think the US is technically still committing it against certain native tribes, due to how it can refer to cultural elimination as well (by adoption of children outside of the tribe).
Does forced relocation count? I'm honestly not sure, it's a long list. There's also dozens of different definitions.
Here's the 1948 UN definition :
Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Israel isn't committing a holocaust against Palestinians (ie physical mass murder), but genocide has a lower threshold to meet, and some consider the above definition too strict (as it requires intent, which I highly doubt Israel has).
It's totally possible to be against Israel's policy with regards to Palestinians without being anti-Semitic. Or Netanyahu in general, as he has had conservative policies in his time in government. It shouldn't be surprising that leftist movements don't like Israel's current government. That said, some people are clearly against those things due to antisemitism.
Chanting stupid things is bad, but not exactly something either side is solely complicit for. I don't see the point in debating random people chanting dumb shit, unless they have a notable platform of influence or are attempting to expand their influence. We can debate whether Farrakhan is sufficiently cast out of the left, the same as we can debate whether the proud boys or milo are sufficiently cast out of influence on the right.
Also, the focus on Israel has always struck me as a little weird, as there are other countries out there unequivocally guilty of genocide that no one in power gives a shit about.
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