EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2300
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PhoenixVoid
Canada32740 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23233 Posts
If I have to pick a liar between the two, I'm going with the well documented liar with a history of inappropriate behavior with women lying about not behaving inappropriately with a woman. But since his inappropriate behavior with women we've all seen on camera is unacceptable to me, I don't have to. Generally though, I give her the benefit of the doubt. | ||
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Vivax
21978 Posts
Makes you feel like the dems don't care about what their base wants. Or if Trump gets reelected. Biden feels like the typical dude who probably moved himself in front of others in the party because of experience, past merits instead of actual viability. And on top of it he looks like a legitimate creep in those pictures circulating of him and if he got elected he'd probably get dismounted in a month and replaced by someone else you have no way of predicting. If I were a voter in America I'd probably request they add a cross for NEITHER to the voting cards. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On May 02 2020 16:17 Vivax wrote: It's a pretty sad state of politics when to vote NOT Trump you have to swallow a pill as bitter as that. Makes you feel like the dems don't care about what their base wants. Or if Trump gets reelected. Biden feels like the typical dude who probably moved himself in front of others in the party because of experience, past merits instead of actual viability. And on top of it he looks like a legitimate creep in those pictures circulating of him and if he got elected he'd probably get dismounted in a month and replaced by someone else you have no way of predicting. If I were a voter in America I'd probably request they add a cross for NEITHER to the voting cards. It's the dems base that elected him through the primaries but ok. | ||
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Vivax
21978 Posts
On May 02 2020 16:51 Biff The Understudy wrote: It's the dems base that elected him through the primaries but ok. Okay. Still feels to me like he isn't the candidate most want. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17992 Posts
On May 02 2020 16:59 Vivax wrote: Okay. Still feels to me like he isn't the candidate most want. That's mostly because you talk to people your age. And probably mostly to white college educated people. That is the demographic that overwhelmingly voted against Biden. You need to talk to more boomers. Regarding the box "neither", it exists: you vote for a write-in, one of the independent candidates, or write "FUCK OFF" in large letters across the ballot. | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
Still, I don't reflexively conclude him guilty of rape. There's some evidence that imo is hard to explain away unless something happened, but atm short of preponderance of evidence and far short of proof. What scares me is seeing and hearing Democrats (who are supposedly more rational) resort to ugly Republican style fallacies rather than admitting the obvious hypocrisy between this and the Kavanaugh nomination. There's: whataboutism ("Look how many allegations Trump has!"), ad hominem ("She wrote an article supporting Putin!"), innuendo ("Isn't the TIMING suspicious?"), appeals to authority ("NYTimes said he didn't do it, that settles it"), leaps in logic ("We haven't caught him raping left and right his whole life, so impossible he did it once") When I had doubts about the justice in the news media dogpiling Kavanaugh, I ultimately bought the argument that it's a job interview, and if there's some credible evidence, better safe than sorry. Now I'm finding out it's all a sham, and a plurality if not majority of the Dems in this country have similar thought patterns as the "deplorables" on the other side. So you'd vote Biden over Trump, even if there's a real possibility Biden raped a woman. That's understandable (sort of), but ADMIT it, dammit, and stop trying to sugarcoat the blatant hypocrisy. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On May 02 2020 16:59 Vivax wrote: Okay. Still feels to me like he isn't the candidate most want. On the one hand, what it feels to you, on the other, arithmetic of an election he won overwhelmingly. Let me think about it. The reason we have elections is precisely to reflect what people want. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On May 02 2020 17:25 Savant wrote: Full disclosure, I think Biden's some combination of corrupt, senile, and/or a creep, and an unprincipled and untalented politician to boot, all based on public information about his career. Still, I don't reflexively conclude him guilty of rape. There's some evidence that imo is hard to explain away unless something happened, but atm short of preponderance of evidence and far short of proof. What scares me is seeing and hearing Democrats (who are supposedly more rational) resort to ugly Republican style fallacies rather than admitting the obvious hypocrisy between this and the Kavanaugh nomination. There's: whataboutism ("Look how many allegations Trump has!"), ad hominem ("She wrote an article supporting Putin!"), innuendo ("Isn't the TIMING suspicious?"), appeals to authority ("NYTimes said he didn't do it, that settles it"), leaps in logic ("We haven't caught him raping left and right his whole life, so impossible he did it once") When I had doubts about the justice in the news media dogpiling Kavanaugh, I ultimately bought the argument that it's a job interview, and if there's some credible evidence, better safe than sorry. Now I'm finding out it's all a sham, and a plurality if not majority of the Dems in this country have similar thought patterns as the "deplorables" on the other side. So you'd vote Biden over Trump, even if there's a real possibility Biden raped a woman. That's understandable (sort of), but ADMIT it, dammit, and stop trying to sugarcoat the blatant hypocrisy. I don't see much evidence that he is corrupt at all, he seems quite articulate for someone senile, and frankly I am yet to see a footage of him that would make me qualify him as a creep. Granted, I don't come from a culture nearly as puritan as the american one, but the whole creepy thing is Trump level of argumentation. And yes, we do have to chose between him and Trump. So who is better - or worse is supremely relevant. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23233 Posts
On May 02 2020 16:59 Vivax wrote: Okay. Still feels to me like he isn't the candidate most want. He isn't for most people. He's who some Democrats wanted, and more settled on imo as the only person that could beat Bernie/Trump because none of the other candidates had more PoC support than Bernie. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:19 GreenHorizons wrote: He isn't for most people. He's who some Democrats wanted, and more settled on imo as the only person that could beat Bernie/Trump because none of the other candidates had more PoC support than Bernie. There are multiple reasons one someone choses a candidate. Being seen as the best placed for beating someone like Trump is one of them, being associated with the guy you served as VP is another one, being a moderate is also one. Biden beat Sanders. In a way, even though I have huge doubt about Sanders tactics, I regret it, but that's the way it is. Saying democrat leaning people didn't want Biden is just a falsehood. I read today in 538 that polls suggest that 18% of people in the US have a good opinion of socialism. I just don't get how Sanders thought putting such a target on his forehead was a great idea. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23233 Posts
On May 02 2020 18:32 Biff The Understudy wrote: There are multiple reasons one someone choses a candidate. Being seen as the best placed for beating someone like Trump is one of them, being associated with the guy you served as VP is another one, being a moderate is also one. Biden beat Sanders. In a way, even though I have huge doubt about Sanders tactics, I regret it, but that's the way it is. Saying democrat leaning people didn't want Biden is just a falsehood. I read today in 538 that polls suggest that 18% of people in the US have a good opinion of socialism. I just don't get how Sanders thought putting such a target on his forehead was a great idea. Most of the country doesn't and won't support Biden. The same can be said of Trump. Biden lost the first 3 contests because Democrats didn't want him to be the nominee. When all the other candidates bombed in SC it was clear the only Democrat with a path to beat Sanders (and presumably they think Trump) was Biden. So they all dropped out almost immediately after that and consolidated around Biden. Except Bloomberg who was expressly running to stop Sanders and dropped out shortly after, and Warren who was implicitly running to weaken Bernie's chances (at that point). | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6230 Posts
On May 02 2020 17:25 Savant wrote: Full disclosure, I think Biden's some combination of corrupt, senile, and/or a creep, and an unprincipled and untalented politician to boot, all based on public information about his career. Still, I don't reflexively conclude him guilty of rape. There's some evidence that imo is hard to explain away unless something happened, but atm short of preponderance of evidence and far short of proof. What scares me is seeing and hearing Democrats (who are supposedly more rational) resort to ugly Republican style fallacies rather than admitting the obvious hypocrisy between this and the Kavanaugh nomination. There's: whataboutism ("Look how many allegations Trump has!"), ad hominem ("She wrote an article supporting Putin!"), innuendo ("Isn't the TIMING suspicious?"), appeals to authority ("NYTimes said he didn't do it, that settles it"), leaps in logic ("We haven't caught him raping left and right his whole life, so impossible he did it once") An ad hom is a fallacy that dodges evidence to focus on the speaker. In this case, the reliability of the speaker is itself evidence, and is perfectly open to challenge. Likewise, whataboutism tries to leverage a false dichotomy to deflect blame. Here, we have a real dichotomy. One of these two men will be president, because America has the worst electoral system in the developed world. Whether or not it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, they eventually need to be compared. Personally, I found Biden's statement surprisingly well balanced, and far better than I expected from him. We have time to investigate, and he appears to be cooperating. There is enough else going on that it might even be done properly. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Savant
United States379 Posts
On May 02 2020 19:12 Belisarius wrote: An ad hom is a fallacy that dodges evidence to focus on the speaker. In this case, the reliability of the speaker is itself evidence, and is perfectly open to challenge. Likewise, whataboutism tries to leverage a false dichotomy to deflect blame. Here, we have a real dichotomy. One of these two men will be president, because America has the worst electoral system in the developed world. Whether or not it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, they eventually need to be compared. Personally, I found Biden's statement surprisingly well balanced, and far better than I expected from him. We have time to investigate, and he appears to be cooperating. There is enough else going on that it might even be done properly. I'm confident her foreign policy musings from years ago would be inadmissible evidence in court if her case against Biden was tried. Yes, this isn't a trial, but the reason it wouldn't be admissible is valid: short of arguing she's a Russian stooge or agent, her past opinion on Putin is highly prejudicial nowadays (it's a bit of an anachronism to see it as deviant before the past few years), but irrelevant: Claiming "She's lying about being raped because she wrote admiring things about Putin" is ridiculous, which is why the topic is always brought up obliquely to cast doubt on her character. Likewise, whataboutism tries to leverage a false dichotomy to deflect blame. Where are you getting this? Whataboutism is a variant of tu quoque ("you too") fallacy. From Cambridge Dictionary: "answering a criticism or difficult question by attacking someone with a similar criticism or question directed at them". Again, irrelevant. My original assertion is that people are using the election and Trump to engage in motivated reasoning and double standards. This does huge damage to the credibility of the only sane party left in America. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12179 Posts
On May 02 2020 17:25 Savant wrote: When I had doubts about the justice in the news media dogpiling Kavanaugh, I ultimately bought the argument that it's a job interview, and if there's some credible evidence, better safe than sorry. Now I'm finding out it's all a sham, and a plurality if not majority of the Dems in this country have similar thought patterns as the "deplorables" on the other side. So you'd vote Biden over Trump, even if there's a real possibility Biden raped a woman. That's understandable (sort of), but ADMIT it, dammit, and stop trying to sugarcoat the blatant hypocrisy. Especially if you spend time on Twitter you come into contact with amazing posts to that regard. I already had the knowledge that you discovered beforehand, but I fully agree with the sentiment. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Introvert
United States4756 Posts
On May 03 2020 01:46 JimmiC wrote: People who keep saying this is equal to Kavanuagh hearings need to really stop, take a breath and think about it. If there is a hearing and it goes as bad for Biden as it did for Kavanuagh sure. But as of right now there is a allegation, with no supporting evidence and in fact the evidence from many many people interviewed is looking like it may of infact not happened. With Kavanaugh he should have been disqualified, not only because the assault was likely and brought up at the first major step into the spotlight, but because of his behavior during the hearing. The stories also need to be thought about, is it realistic that a Drunk "beers" sexually assaulted a young woman in her teens, and then never repeated it? Yes it is plausible. Is it plausible that a man in his 50's sober did an overt act of rape and confidently brushed it off, only once ever? Not really, if he did what he is accused of it is very likely he would have done it a ton. This is a Cosby level accusation, not a drunkin mistake (no taking away from the damage caused merely pointing out that one is very likely to have been repeated and one could happen once. If Biden did this, they will find others, if he was this type of man who abused his power in this way than he almost certainly did it multiple times. That the Dem haters and Bernie bros are so convinced, and were moments after the accusation where they couldn't wait to get to mud slinging and disingenuously tried to get up on a soap box and shame people who only wanted to wait for the investigation shows both their motives as well their inability to be remotely impartial. There have been multiple investigations into Biden, he was a public senator forever, he was vice president for 8 years, there was campaign after campaign of his rivals looking for any dirt, and they found some, but never anything like this. Hell there was the entire run up for the democratic party where he was named favorite from the start. It is highly likely he didn't do it. And it was smart of the democratic party to take a wait and see approach rather then throw out the person that MOST OF THEIR MEMBERS VOTED FOR. Bernie lost because he didn't have enough support, he was not low on cash, he only had one progressive to rival him while Biden had a ton of moderates. I get you don't like Biden and want Bernie, so do I. But this is getting just plain stupid at this point. And the most ridiculous part is no matter what happens, even if she says under oath she made it up, you still won't change your minds. You are losing all reason and credibility. Being a zealot is not a good thing. There still isn't even evidence Ford ever met Kavanaugh, saying the Kavanaugh story has more evidence is simply astonishing and is very clearly the result of motivated reasoning. Also, recall that the incident was NOT brought up at the first opportunity, Kavanaugh had been through two previous hearings for judgeships and this allegation was leaked by someone in Congress right before the Senate was set to start voting. It was the opposite of transparent. As for Biden, I think when you combine his low enthusiasm (based on polling) and the fact that most Democrats said their number one issue was beating Trump, not voting for someone who shares their positions, the case that Biden wasn't really who Dems "wanted" is at least plausible. Though again I point out that, in recent history, Democrats actually have a better track record nominating young, likable candidates with less known policy positions. Biden is almost the exact opposite. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
On May 03 2020 02:19 Introvert wrote: There still isn't even evidence Ford ever met Kavanaugh, saying the Kavanaugh story has more evidence is simply astonishing and is very clearly the result of motivated reasoning. Also, recall that the incident was NOT brought up at the first opportunity, Kavanaugh had been through two previous hearings for judgeships and this allegation was leaked by someone in Congress right before the Senate was set to start voting. It was the opposite of transparent. As for Biden, I think when you combine his low enthusiasm (based on polling) and the fact that most Democrats said their number one issue was beating Trump, not voting for someone who shares their positions, the case that Biden wasn't really who Dems "wanted" is at least plausible. Though again I point out that, in recent history, Democrats actually have a better track record nominating young, likable candidates with less known policy positions. Biden is almost the exact opposite. But the question on the table at the time was “should we pursue more evidence,” and the Republican party line was “no.” Only the much-maligned Jeff Flake (something tells me you won’t speak fondly of him for this decision) was able to get even a modest federal investigation into credible assault allegations against a Supreme Court nominee. I’ve said before, I would have been sympathetic to a Republican who said “we should investigate this fully, but if no more evidence comes out, presumption of innocence should hold.” In the whole Senate, there was basically half of one Republican who took that position. Everybody else wanted to ram the vote through as fast as possible, and definitely NOT investigate anything. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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