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On May 03 2020 07:00 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 06:48 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 06:27 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 06:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 04:24 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 04:05 Introvert wrote:
Edit: to JC and CS
I'm not going to relitigate this, but apparently both of you have quite short memories. It was clear from the start of the Kavanaugh matter that the truth was irrelevent, which is why the Democrats acted the way they did and the GOP didn't want to reward their scumbaggery.
[...] Yeah, if you’re gonna try to start from this premise, then you’re right, re-litigating probably won’t be very productive. Something I never understood in that episode was how Republicans kept going on about “[the Democrats] scumbaggery” when it wasn’t the Democrats who levied the allegation. Ford did. I understand why it’s electorally beneficial to appear sympathetic to Ford while blaming the whole thing on Democrats, I just don’t know how anybody reconciles it. Before Biden's interview on Morning Joe they ran about 5 minutes of compilation footage of talking about how Democrat pundits and journalists had basically convicted Kavanaugh. The "her story should be considered real and she should be given the benefit of the doubt" are Joe Biden's own words. The most obvious is the NYT story taking out the end of the sentence of what has become Biden's campaign go to exculpatory phrase. + Show Spoiler +Obviously many Republicans are hypocrites on this as well. I mean, I don’t know what pundits said at the time, but I think the position “we should presume guilt” sucked then and sucks now. Certainly I think quite a few people on the left went wide-eyed at the slim chance of getting a Supreme Court seat out of it, and that’s unprincipled and opportunistic. But at some point people are gonna have to figure out how we actually think these allegations should be handled. I think taking them seriously and investigating thoroughly, but with a presumption of innocence in ambiguous cases, is a reasonable standard. Or maybe it’s not even that I think it’s reasonable so much as that I’m not even sure what the alternative is. Lots of people (including Morning Joe) do remember. The unprincipled and opportunistic treatment of Kavanaugh and the cynical exploitation of Ford is made more stark by their notably different reaction to Reade's allegations against Biden. "presumption of innocence" is a legal threshold, not a social one. Suppose I'd get followed less in the store if it was a social one lol. The bar for putting Biden in prison isn't the same for not hiring him for president Presumption of innocence isn’t a threshold at all, “beyond reasonable doubt” is. I agree that “beyond reasonable doubt” is too high a threshold for non-criminal judgments about these types of cases though. I really wish this allegation had come out before the nomination was basically clinched. Ideally early enough that there had been plenty of time to investigate before Iowa. Then voters could decide for themselves whether the evidence was strong enough. As it is it’s basically the DNC’s job to decide whether the allegations are strong enough to warrant overturning the democratic process. Voters only get to decide whether the allegations are strong enough to warrant giving Trump 4 more years without having to endure a real democratic contest for reelection.
She was looking for help with coming forward from the "Time's Up" organization in January. They declined saying they couldn't help because it would jeopardize their tax status.
As to the "democratic process" part, that's already been scrapped, People in New York have had their presidential primary canceled.
My assessment is Democrats pushed pandemic in-person voting in Illinois specifically because they know "basically clinched" isn't "he already has the majority of delegates" and the argument that him not being the nominee is undemocratic is weak.
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Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description.
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On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description.
He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic.
Moreover, New York cancelling their presidential primary (but holding other primaries) demonstrates how easily they can disregard "the democratic process" anyway.
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On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic.
If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...”
To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing.
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On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing.
Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention.
The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections).
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On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections).
Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!”
New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise.
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On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise.
I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered.
As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally preventing them from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. Probably suppress progressive turnout for the other primaries as well, coincidentally.
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On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes.
But his opponents have surrendered. They’ve literally conceded and endorsed him. If that’s not gg, I don’t know what is. And if New York is still holding the other contests, how does this help protect from the pandemic? Would you feel differently about their decision if Biden had a majority of delegates already?
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On May 03 2020 08:37 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. But his opponents have surrendered. They’ve literally conceded and endorsed him. If that’s not gg, I don’t know what is. And if New York is still holding the other contests, how does this help protect from the pandemic? Would you feel differently about their decision if Biden had a majority of delegates already?
Suspended and endorsed is close to throwing in the towel, but suspended is not ended for lots of reasons.
On New York, they aren't protecting from the pandemic, that hasn't stopped them as using that as the justification, as inexplicable as that is. If Biden had already won the nomination it would certainly strengthen the argument, but it would still have other problems, like delegates, party platform votes, etc.
New York holding elections and just striking the presidential primary from the ballot and disenfranchising people while still holding the primary (without adequate protections/ballot access) anyway is irresponsible, undemocratic, and will perpetuate NY being cited by Republican disenfranchisement efforts as an example of hypocrisy/legitimacy.
It also demonstrates Democrats could have postponed the presidential primary in Illinois for safety if they wanted.
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On May 03 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:37 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. But his opponents have surrendered. They’ve literally conceded and endorsed him. If that’s not gg, I don’t know what is. And if New York is still holding the other contests, how does this help protect from the pandemic? Would you feel differently about their decision if Biden had a majority of delegates already? Suspended and endorsed is close to throwing in the towel, but suspended is not ended for lots of reasons. On New York, they aren't protecting from the pandemic, that hasn't stopped them as using that as the justification, as inexplicable as that is. If Biden had already won the nomination it would certainly strengthen the argument, but it would still have other problems, like delegates, party platform votes, etc. New York holding elections and just striking the presidential primary from the ballot and disenfranchising people while still holding the primary (without adequate protections/ballot access) anyway is irresponsible, undemocratic, and will perpetuate NY being cited by Republican disenfranchisement efforts as an example of hypocrisy/legitimacy. It also demonstrates Democrats could have postponed the presidential primary in Illinois for safety if they wanted.
Okay. I only just heard about the New York primary thing from you. Googling briefly it sounds like several districts don’t have anything else on the ballot so they’ll be fully cancelled. My initial impression is that yeah, they should have just held it or postponed the whole thing.
Suspending and endorsing literally is conceding. Bernie literally told Biden “we need you in the White House.” This seems really straightforward. If they just held all remaining primaries as planned, do you actually think Biden wouldn’t win?
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On May 03 2020 08:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 06:53 Nouar wrote:On May 03 2020 04:05 Introvert wrote:
Edit: to JC and CS
I'm not going to relitigate this, but apparently both of you have quite short memories. It was clear from the start of the Kavanaugh matter that the truth was irrelevent, which is why the Democrats acted the way they did and the GOP didn't want to reward their scumbaggery. A story about an anonymous person with an allegation from over 30 years ago with no corroboration AND they wanted to keep her identity a secret the whole time, so that we'd never even hear from her. Compare with Biden who isn't even asked a direct question on it for 3+ weeks and is being selectively open while the media more or less runs cover. That Larry King phone call, if it is Reade's mom, has more evidence than all the Kavanaugh stories combined. Meanwhile Ford's friend who was supposedly there said there was no such gathering (her friends tried to pressure her into "remembering" btw). So given how shaky it was from the beginning, and the shocking amount of gamesmanship being played by people like Feinstein, I find the GOP's behavior in that matter not strong enough.
Perhaps it's understandable for non-Americans (although not for anyone in this thread) but the Democrats had a president they defended for decades until simply could not anymore, you may know him as William Jefferson Clinton. They have no high ground. Nevermind that by Biden's own standard he should be treated as guilty.
The idea that there is more evidence for what happened to Ford than Reade is clearly wrong, even if you don't find Reade's story airtight. For my own part I haven't really commented on it because I want more evidence. That phone call is something along those lines that doesn't seem to get the play it deserves. The phone call doesn't say anything about a sexual assault, it is extremely vague, and now that Biden gave the go to publicize immediately any complaint made against him, Reade says that the complaint doesn't say anything about a sexual assault either. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tara-reade-harassment-assault-absent-biden-complaintHer brother and one neighbor corroborate somewhat. A few others on condition of anonymity. It's pretty light. There's about the same amount of "proof" than with Kavanaugh. What was unacceptable/disqualifying with Kavanaugh was his behaviour. This seems to be the biggest point that Intro keeps glazing over. And why so many judge's of both parties signed that petition. He showed, on the record, on live TV that he was in fact not impartial.
Because we've already had the debate over his behavior. I have absolutely no problem with it, and moreover the anger was totally justified. This discussion would be quite unrelated to the reason I responded to the initial post.
The fact multiple posters responded to me by bringing up his testimony before the Senate is far more telling IMO.
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On May 03 2020 09:13 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:58 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 08:37 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. But his opponents have surrendered. They’ve literally conceded and endorsed him. If that’s not gg, I don’t know what is. And if New York is still holding the other contests, how does this help protect from the pandemic? Would you feel differently about their decision if Biden had a majority of delegates already? Suspended and endorsed is close to throwing in the towel, but suspended is not ended for lots of reasons. On New York, they aren't protecting from the pandemic, that hasn't stopped them as using that as the justification, as inexplicable as that is. If Biden had already won the nomination it would certainly strengthen the argument, but it would still have other problems, like delegates, party platform votes, etc. New York holding elections and just striking the presidential primary from the ballot and disenfranchising people while still holding the primary (without adequate protections/ballot access) anyway is irresponsible, undemocratic, and will perpetuate NY being cited by Republican disenfranchisement efforts as an example of hypocrisy/legitimacy. It also demonstrates Democrats could have postponed the presidential primary in Illinois for safety if they wanted. Okay. I only just heard about the New York primary thing from you. Googling briefly it sounds like several districts don’t have anything else on the ballot so they’ll be fully cancelled. My initial impression is that yeah, they should have just held it or postponed the whole thing. Suspending and endorsing literally is conceding. Bernie literally told Biden “we need you in the White House.” This seems really straightforward. If they just held all remaining primaries as planned, do you actually think Biden wouldn’t win?
Bernie endorsed because when he held out for delegates Democrats tried to pin ongoing elections on him instead of Democrats holding them whether he dropped out and conceded or not. Bernie should have known better imo but it's obvious he should have held out if we all knew Democrats would completely abandon the democratic process of selecting delegates while still holding elections anyway.
To be clear the nomination process isn't exclusively about selecting a nominee, there's more to the process of delegates and their role at the convention.
I don't think Bernie is any savior though, so backing down like he did is what I expected.
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On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally preventing them from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. Probably suppress progressive turnout for the other primaries as well, coincidentally.
Terrible analogy because Bernie already forfeited the game.
I also think a discussion needs to be had about how much you were hyping these up as "credible" allegations when they are looking less credible with more media scrutiny. A lot of news outlets need to be shit on for the lack of coverage they had of this story (e.g. major TV networks), but her story continues to change and the allegation itself looks more and more suspicious as we are going.
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On May 03 2020 11:59 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally preventing them from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. Probably suppress progressive turnout for the other primaries as well, coincidentally. Terrible analogy because Bernie already forfeited the game. I also think a discussion needs to be had about how much you were hyping these up as "credible" allegations when they are looking less credible with more media scrutiny. A lot of news outlets need to be shit on for the lack of coverage they had of this story (e.g. major TV networks), but her story continues to change and the allegation itself looks more and more suspicious as we are going.
I think the game analogy can go. Biden hasn't won (presumptive nominee would be a fair description). Reade's allegations are credible from what I've seen.
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To use the situation right now as some "we can't be sure who would've won folks, this isn't a normal primary!" to cast doubt on the fact that Biden would have won is pretty bad faith. He bombed hard in pretty much every state that wasn't California, IIRC even in Vermont he lost a ton of votes.
It's obviously regrettable that COVID disrupts the entire process but Sanders had virtually zero chances of winning this thing, that's not really debatable
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On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally preventing them from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. Probably suppress progressive turnout for the other primaries as well, coincidentally.
Bernie endorsed Biden. Any primary anything after that is just silly. And especially with Reade completely falling apart at this point, I'm so done trying to pretend this is even somewhat dramatic.
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On May 03 2020 14:33 Nyxisto wrote:
To use the situation right now as some "we can't be sure who would've won folks, this isn't a normal primary!" to cast doubt on the fact that Biden would have won is pretty bad faith. He bombed hard in pretty much every state that wasn't California, IIRC even in Vermont he lost a ton of votes.
It's obviously regrettable that COVID disrupts the entire process but Sanders had virtually zero chances of winning this thing, that's not really debatable
Put another way, if Biden died from Covid next week they wouldn't have to change the rules to have a winner that wasn't him, since he never won.
On May 03 2020 14:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 08:15 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 08:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:55 ChristianS wrote:On May 03 2020 07:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 03 2020 07:43 ChristianS wrote:
Joe Biden won the democratic contest for the nomination, so any way of removing him as nominee would be undemocratic. I don’t know why that’s a controversial description. He doesn't have a majority of delegates so he didn't win and him not being the nominee would not be undemocratic. If we just play the rest of the primary like normal I’m absolutely confident he would still win and his critics would quite reasonably point out that he’d won it by the time the allegations were well-known so it wouldn’t mean the “voters had decided” they thought he was innocent. All his competitors have dropped out and endorsed him. That’s what winning looks like. The alternative viewpoint feels like a Terran floating his CC in the corner and saying “well the win condition of the game is...” To be clear: if Biden confessed tomorrow, or if incontrovertible evidence came out, I think the DNC *should* overturn the democratic contest’s result. But nobody should pretend that’s not what they would be doing. Biden himself agreed that without the majority of delegates it would be fair to make someone with less delegates the nominee at the convention. The rest of the primary isn't playing out like normal, New York literally disenfranchised their people from even participating in the Democratic presidential primary (even in the perfunctory way many states have in previous presumptive nominee elections). Come on, this is silly. “Dark didn’t really win the GSL, the win condition is killing all your opponent’s buildings and he didn’t do that once!” New York should reschedule their primary/figure out how to do it by mail. The presidential nomination is locked up but there are other issues on primary ballots that matter. But if they rescheduled it Biden would still win it, and it’s silly to pretend otherwise. I'd say this is more the 4th quarter and Biden's got a lead and the ball but they still play the downs even if the opponents have all but surrendered. As to New York, they are carrying out a primary, they just took the presidential primary off the ballot disenfranchising those voters and coincidentally preventing them from netting Bernie delegates for the other things decided at the convention by delegate votes. Probably suppress progressive turnout for the other primaries as well, coincidentally. Bernie endorsed Biden. Any primary anything after that is just silly. And especially with Reade completely falling apart at this point, I'm so done trying to pretend this is even somewhat dramatic.
How is Reade "completely falling apart"?
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/cJRkGNN.jpg)
