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On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now.
You could put some pressure onto Biden, so that you don't feel so resigned into voting for him and instead feel some excitement about the future. If he wants your vote he's supposed to earn it, he could earn it by having better policies. If he won't even have any discussion then it doesn't seem like he wants your vote at all.
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On April 19 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 04:18 micronesia wrote:On April 19 2020 04:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 21:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2020 20:35 Simberto wrote:
So, the US is at about a 9/11 in deaths every day due to covid 19 now. This will only keep on increasing as you haven't hit a plateau on the concurrent infected yet.
Considering how you reacted to a single 9/11 due to terrorism, has it hit yet just how much your administration in combination with your broken healthcare system has fucked this up?
Is there going to be a "war on disease" now?
How can there be any chance of Trump being reelected after this disaster, and his disastrous handling of this situation? Because American elections aren't about truth. Trump supporters will go to literally any length to excuse his failures during the pandemic. I see it across social media constantly. Republicans don't want to lose. Plain and simple. They sold their integrity years ago and their votes are set in stone. Trump could literally start throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live and they wouldn't change their vote. Democrats would vote for someone "throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live" as long as he threw them in slower than the other guy. Not exactly a level of integrity Republicans should be jealous of. What is the evidence which leads you to this conclusion? I imagine if things got that bad, the democrats would replace the candidate with someone less bad. Extrapolation has limits. The Democratic party's support for Biden despite his role in putting kids in concentration camps and denying them basic hygiene is one piece. The several times we've done the "so you'd vote for ____ if ____ was the Republican nominee" another. My point about them voting for Biden even if he shot someone on 5th ave. Also the bit about how even if they believe Biden is a rapist, it's too late to replace him. EDIT: Stuff like this: Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now.
We've also reached the point, here in this thread, where everyone has heard this same message from you about 100 times over, and by now you should be prepared to answer the follow-up question that's been hanging around since the beginning: What then? You're pointing out ad infinitum that the Democrats are legitimately shitty as well. And I don't seem to recall the last time anyone sincerely disagreed with you on that point. But what are we supposed to do with that information? We can't work miracles, we can just vote.
On April 19 2020 05:07 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. You could put some pressure onto Biden, so that you don't feel so resigned into voting for him and instead feel some excitement about the future. If he wants your vote he's supposed to earn it, he could earn it by having better policies. If he won't even have any discussion then it doesn't seem like he wants your vote at all.
Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it.
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On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:
Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it.
Okay...? But you aren't doing that.
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On April 19 2020 05:12 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:
Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it. Okay...? But you aren't doing that.
Here? No. But I'm also not holding out hope that pressuring Biden to veer to the left is gonna bring him particularly close to Bernie in 6 months time. I'm also bearing in mind that while Biden is far from ideal, far even from Bernie who still isn't perfect, there is still a world of difference between Biden and Trump. One is testing and breaking institutions that limit his power everywhere he can, inciting violence, and fomenting the spread of dangerous propaganda because it suits him. The other isn't great, but he wouldn't be going around and setting even more shit on fire. That's slightly important.
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On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 19 2020 04:18 micronesia wrote:On April 19 2020 04:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 21:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2020 20:35 Simberto wrote:
So, the US is at about a 9/11 in deaths every day due to covid 19 now. This will only keep on increasing as you haven't hit a plateau on the concurrent infected yet.
Considering how you reacted to a single 9/11 due to terrorism, has it hit yet just how much your administration in combination with your broken healthcare system has fucked this up?
Is there going to be a "war on disease" now?
How can there be any chance of Trump being reelected after this disaster, and his disastrous handling of this situation? Because American elections aren't about truth. Trump supporters will go to literally any length to excuse his failures during the pandemic. I see it across social media constantly. Republicans don't want to lose. Plain and simple. They sold their integrity years ago and their votes are set in stone. Trump could literally start throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live and they wouldn't change their vote. Democrats would vote for someone "throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live" as long as he threw them in slower than the other guy. Not exactly a level of integrity Republicans should be jealous of. What is the evidence which leads you to this conclusion? I imagine if things got that bad, the democrats would replace the candidate with someone less bad. Extrapolation has limits. The Democratic party's support for Biden despite his role in putting kids in concentration camps and denying them basic hygiene is one piece. The several times we've done the "so you'd vote for ____ if ____ was the Republican nominee" another. My point about them voting for Biden even if he shot someone on 5th ave. Also the bit about how even if they believe Biden is a rapist, it's too late to replace him. EDIT: Stuff like this: On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. We've also reached the point, here in this thread, where everyone has heard this same message from you about 100 times over, and by now you should be prepared to answer the follow-up question that's been hanging around since the beginning: What then? You're pointing out ad infinitum that the Democrats are legitimately shitty as well. And I don't seem to recall the last time anyone sincerely disagreed with you on that point. But what are we supposed to do with that information? We can't work miracles, we can just vote. Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:07 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. You could put some pressure onto Biden, so that you don't feel so resigned into voting for him and instead feel some excitement about the future. If he wants your vote he's supposed to earn it, he could earn it by having better policies. If he won't even have any discussion then it doesn't seem like he wants your vote at all. Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it.
I've said organizing, mass direct action, and Freireian education to start. Then it's Democrats who start in with the "well that doesn't fix everything immediately so why not just stick to voting for the lesser of two evils indefinitely you childish purist? There's no other choice right now"
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On April 19 2020 05:14 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:12 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:
Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it. Okay...? But you aren't doing that. Here? No. But I'm also not holding out hope that pressuring Biden to veer to the left is gonna bring him particularly close to Bernie in 6 months time.
Well no of course he's not going to be close to Bernie, but that's unrealistic expectations. It's not like Trump is obviously better for the left than Biden, it's kind of close, so a few concessions from Biden would be enough to make him clearly the best choice over not voting.
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On April 19 2020 05:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:On April 19 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 19 2020 04:18 micronesia wrote:On April 19 2020 04:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 21:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2020 20:35 Simberto wrote:
So, the US is at about a 9/11 in deaths every day due to covid 19 now. This will only keep on increasing as you haven't hit a plateau on the concurrent infected yet.
Considering how you reacted to a single 9/11 due to terrorism, has it hit yet just how much your administration in combination with your broken healthcare system has fucked this up?
Is there going to be a "war on disease" now?
How can there be any chance of Trump being reelected after this disaster, and his disastrous handling of this situation? Because American elections aren't about truth. Trump supporters will go to literally any length to excuse his failures during the pandemic. I see it across social media constantly. Republicans don't want to lose. Plain and simple. They sold their integrity years ago and their votes are set in stone. Trump could literally start throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live and they wouldn't change their vote. Democrats would vote for someone "throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live" as long as he threw them in slower than the other guy. Not exactly a level of integrity Republicans should be jealous of. What is the evidence which leads you to this conclusion? I imagine if things got that bad, the democrats would replace the candidate with someone less bad. Extrapolation has limits. The Democratic party's support for Biden despite his role in putting kids in concentration camps and denying them basic hygiene is one piece. The several times we've done the "so you'd vote for ____ if ____ was the Republican nominee" another. My point about them voting for Biden even if he shot someone on 5th ave. Also the bit about how even if they believe Biden is a rapist, it's too late to replace him. EDIT: Stuff like this: On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. We've also reached the point, here in this thread, where everyone has heard this same message from you about 100 times over, and by now you should be prepared to answer the follow-up question that's been hanging around since the beginning: What then? You're pointing out ad infinitum that the Democrats are legitimately shitty as well. And I don't seem to recall the last time anyone sincerely disagreed with you on that point. But what are we supposed to do with that information? We can't work miracles, we can just vote. On April 19 2020 05:07 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. You could put some pressure onto Biden, so that you don't feel so resigned into voting for him and instead feel some excitement about the future. If he wants your vote he's supposed to earn it, he could earn it by having better policies. If he won't even have any discussion then it doesn't seem like he wants your vote at all. Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it. I've said organizing, mass direct action, and Freireian education to start. Then it's Democrats who start in with the "well that doesn't fix everything immediately so why not just stick to voting for the lesser of two evils indefinitely you childish purist?"
Those things are all well and good, but what organizing and mass direct action are you going to achieve in 6 months, before we have the chance to upend Trump? It would be hard enough before you start talking about the Coronavirus disrupting every facet of modern life. Those things are great things to start encouraging and practicing going forward, but I don't see any chance of it happening in a matter of weeks.
To wit, my point is yeah, we need to develop better methods for helping to put out our massive house fire, but maybe we use the shitty method we still have to buy us that time. If we want to effect massive direct action and re-educate folks to have a better set of expectations and demands of their democracy, surviving until you can get there is the important middle bit.
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On April 19 2020 05:20 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:On April 19 2020 04:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 19 2020 04:18 micronesia wrote:On April 19 2020 04:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 21:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2020 20:35 Simberto wrote:
So, the US is at about a 9/11 in deaths every day due to covid 19 now. This will only keep on increasing as you haven't hit a plateau on the concurrent infected yet.
Considering how you reacted to a single 9/11 due to terrorism, has it hit yet just how much your administration in combination with your broken healthcare system has fucked this up?
Is there going to be a "war on disease" now?
How can there be any chance of Trump being reelected after this disaster, and his disastrous handling of this situation? Because American elections aren't about truth. Trump supporters will go to literally any length to excuse his failures during the pandemic. I see it across social media constantly. Republicans don't want to lose. Plain and simple. They sold their integrity years ago and their votes are set in stone. Trump could literally start throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live and they wouldn't change their vote. Democrats would vote for someone "throwing immigrants in concentration camps with active gas chambers televised live" as long as he threw them in slower than the other guy. Not exactly a level of integrity Republicans should be jealous of. What is the evidence which leads you to this conclusion? I imagine if things got that bad, the democrats would replace the candidate with someone less bad. Extrapolation has limits. The Democratic party's support for Biden despite his role in putting kids in concentration camps and denying them basic hygiene is one piece. The several times we've done the "so you'd vote for ____ if ____ was the Republican nominee" another. My point about them voting for Biden even if he shot someone on 5th ave. Also the bit about how even if they believe Biden is a rapist, it's too late to replace him. EDIT: Stuff like this: On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. We've also reached the point, here in this thread, where everyone has heard this same message from you about 100 times over, and by now you should be prepared to answer the follow-up question that's been hanging around since the beginning: What then? You're pointing out ad infinitum that the Democrats are legitimately shitty as well. And I don't seem to recall the last time anyone sincerely disagreed with you on that point. But what are we supposed to do with that information? We can't work miracles, we can just vote. On April 19 2020 05:07 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2020 05:01 NewSunshine wrote:
We're rapidly reaching a point where the whole house is on fire, but rather than put out half the house and buy time to find a way to put out the other half, folks are throwing their hands in the air in resignation because we don't have a way to put it out all at once. I'm not going to start blaming folks for feeling resigned to vote for Biden. Our system is genuinely fucked that there's no other choice right now, but also there's no other choice right now. You could put some pressure onto Biden, so that you don't feel so resigned into voting for him and instead feel some excitement about the future. If he wants your vote he's supposed to earn it, he could earn it by having better policies. If he won't even have any discussion then it doesn't seem like he wants your vote at all. Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it. I've said organizing, mass direct action, and Freireian education to start. Then it's Democrats who start in with the "well that doesn't fix everything immediately so why not just stick to voting for the lesser of two evils indefinitely you childish purist?" Those things are all well and good, but what organizing and mass direct action are you going to achieve in 6 months, before we have the chance to upend Trump? It would be hard enough before you start talking about the Coronavirus disrupting every facet of modern life. Those things are great things to start encouraging and practicing going forward, but I don't see any chance of it happening in a matter of weeks.
It's been an ongoing project of folks for decades. That Democrats (and Republicans) have typically fought against them or ignored their existence altogether until now isn't informative of what they could achieve in the coming weeks and months if the people that said they ostensibly supported them actually did join them.
I've mentioned elsewhere that covid has actually (albeit social distancing isn't particularly helpful) made some aspects of my organizing work easier. Getting tenants to unionize and call for a rent strike for example is much easier when something like half of them cant pay rent anyway and the (typically delinquent) landlord sends out threatening correspondence (despite having federal assurance they'll be fine).
If you think they're great and should be encouraged, I think you should do that instead of what you're doing personally.
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On April 18 2020 20:35 Simberto wrote:
So, the US is at about a 9/11 in deaths every day due to covid 19 now. This will only keep on increasing as you haven't hit a plateau on the concurrent infected yet.
Considering how you reacted to a single 9/11 due to terrorism, has it hit yet just how much your administration in combination with your broken healthcare system has fucked this up?
Is there going to be a "war on disease" now?
How can there be any chance of Trump being reelected after this disaster, and his disastrous handling of this situation?
There was a short item today on cnn with the usa ambasador to the united nations under obama.
Amongst other things they did compare the money spend on combatting terrorism to the money spend on preparing for pandemics over a a certain timeframe (which did extend far beyond the trump presidency)
It was something like 180 billion vs 2 billion if i remember correctly.
In hindsight everything is easy though,we didnt have a major pandemic for a very long time while the world did suffer from quiet a few terror attacks. In the future more money will be spend on pandemic prepardness,i am reasonably sure of that.
Trump getting re-elected i am still inclined to think not,but this pandemic is difficult to predict.
It could still more or less disapear out of nowhere,similar to how it did apear. There are such large differences in the impact of the virus between different countries all over the world and also between different states in the usa.
It doesnt seem very likely right now that it will somehow disapear but i also dont think its close to impossible. What if it somehow disapears in may/june and not return before the election even after fully opening up the economy ?
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On April 19 2020 05:14 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 05:12 Nebuchad wrote:On April 19 2020 05:09 NewSunshine wrote:
Sure, sounds great. I'm all for it. Okay...? But you aren't doing that. Here? No. But I'm also not holding out hope that pressuring Biden to veer to the left is gonna bring him particularly close to Bernie in 6 months time. I'm also bearing in mind that while Biden is far from ideal, far even from Bernie who still isn't perfect, there is still a world of difference between Biden and Trump. One is testing and breaking institutions that limit his power everywhere he can, inciting violence, and fomenting the spread of dangerous propaganda because it suits him. The other isn't great, but he wouldn't be going around and setting even more shit on fire. That's slightly important.
Biden is a moderate's moderate he campaigned on being the middle ground. That being said if Bernie delegate count is high enough it might push him to acknowledge there is a sizable amount of progressive Democrats and that platform might be worth something. Might be renewed interest in something more than the ACA but I doubt it. ACA was Obama's project and Biden was set to deal with overseeing the stimulus packages which he did well. Even after all that Republican oversight there was barely any money that could have been said was flat out wasted. There was investments that did not pan out but wasteful spending, corruption or ethically questionable spending was tamped down. The only critism is due to how slowly the stimulus money was awarded, which did cut down on waste but was not a quick response people were looking for.
Bernie lost to Biden because the turn out to vote worked, more people in general showed up to vote, but who showed up more the +45 crowd biden's main supporters. That's the same reliable group that shows up on election night as well. I don't see biden's platform changing much.
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The US protests are spreading to other states. Specifically Texas. I've picked the below tweet both as evidence and also because I found the sign hilarious. The protests are being spearheaded by Infowars members and have Alex Jones in attendance
(Fauci, Pompeo, George Soros, and Steve Mnuchin (misspelled) all in the same group of people?)
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These protests still seem like parody. But I guess that's what happens. Republican politicians and donors actively want you to die for their profit, and a sizable portion of them are willing to say so openly. If you trust them, you're going to end up in these death cults.
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Never realized the depths of stupid in this country.
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On April 19 2020 10:59 Starlightsun wrote:
Never realized the depths of stupid in this country.
The stupidity isn't limited to the US. People around Europe have been vandalizing 5G antennas, because of the conspiracy theory that Covid isn't caused by a virus at all, but is due to 5G technology.
Peop are scared and there's a lot of questions that official sources have to answer with "don't know". Alex Jones and worse full in the blanks. Gullible people gobble it up.
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On April 19 2020 16:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2020 10:59 Starlightsun wrote:
Never realized the depths of stupid in this country. The stupidity isn't limited to the US. People around Europe have been vandalizing 5G antennas, because of the conspiracy theory that Covid isn't caused by a virus at all, but is due to 5G technology. Peop are scared and there's a lot of questions that official sources have to answer with "don't know". Alex Jones and worse full in the blanks. Gullible people gobble it up.
There is a French one that I really like personally : hexachloroquine (antipaludic) was put under stricter sell conditions in january 2020 following a procedure which started in 2018. Later this drug showed promising results against covid. Our minister of Health was fired in March (officially she resigned but she was garbage) and her husband works for the national research in the medical field, which is partially funded by big pharma. Of course labs have partnerships all over the world, including one from Lyon with the one in Wuhan and you could vaguely link the husband to the Wuhan lab. Somehow it became a scheme about releasing the virus on purpose while knowing the treatment and making said treatment hard to buy in order to make big money, our former minister having resigned to avoid collusion accusations.
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On April 19 2020 09:31 Nebuchad wrote:
These protests still seem like parody. But I guess that's what happens. Republican politicians and donors actively want you to die for their profit, and a sizable portion of them are willing to say so openly. If you trust them, you're going to end up in these death cults.
How does their conspiracy work, anyways? Do the 40000 dead in the US so far (we just passed a Korean war of deaths, we will soon reach a Vietnam war) just not exist?
I mean, there is some irony in people purposefully doing the most dangerous think that can spread the virus because they don't believe it exists, but it is still not the fun kind of irony, because it means that a lot more people will die, many of which don't have anything to do with the crazies in their protests.
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If people protest, let them protest. What other options do you have to check if you're still living in a democracy? Nobody's forcing you out of your home to do something if you think the situation is still dangerous.
Arguably, most new infections at this point should derive from new testing, not actual new infections.
Still seems like something between premature and too late considering countries start reopening in May, though it is yet to be seen how much of that is genuine and not just mere appeasement.
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On April 19 2020 20:46 Vivax wrote:
If people protest, let them protest. What other options do you have to check if you're still living in a democracy? Nobody's forcing you out of your home to do something if you think the situation is still dangerous.
That misses the point though, similar to how a sufficient number of anti-vaxxers can mess up herd immunity for everyone else. If these idiots get sick, hospitals will still need to take them, which means that our healthcare professionals can't spend as much time on those who got sick from various diseases through more legitimate reasons. We've already seen horror stories of doctors needing to choose which patients to save and which to let die, due to having too few resources. If conspiracy theorists are displacing the time and care of our essential workers, then it hurts many more people. These essential workers still need to come in contact with the now-sick conspiracy theorists, and can get unnecessarily sick from them too. No one actually gets sick alone without any future interaction, especially when there's an asymptomatic period of up to two weeks.
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EPT
