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On April 18 2020 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party. Yes but then your arguing against the 'party' and 'Americans' in general which are not on this forum.
Looked to me like most people here on TL preferred Bernie or another candidate over Biden. But he didn't win, so now the choice is between Trump or Biden.
I feel like this has gotten a little lost in the discussion.
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Northern Ireland25387 Posts
On April 18 2020 06:03 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all. That was Liz Warren. She's a couple steps to the right of Sanders, in that she's not as anti-capitalistism - but wants very intense regulations. She was friendlier with the establishment and hovered right around 15% support. She pivoted to the right during the primary on m4a for some strange reason and lost basically all progressive support. Sexism (and/or belief in American's being too sexist to elect a female president) was the larger reason for her not prevailing over Biden, though.
Was it really the larger reason? Certainly a factor I would concede.
If you’re caught between Bernie who is offering the whole (or a large chunk) platform that a lot of the left want and the centre who want very little of it you’re not going to do particularly well.
If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available.
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On April 18 2020 06:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party. Yes but then your arguing against the 'party' and 'Americans' in general which are not on this forum. Looked to me like most people here on TL preferred Bernie or another candidate over Biden. But he didn't win, so now the choice is between Trump or Biden. I feel like this has gotten a little lost in the discussion.
Really I'm arguing those people should stop being loyal to that abusive party. The people that prefer Biden to Bernie are as much a lost cause as well-informed Trump supporters imo.
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On April 18 2020 06:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available.
Politics isn't you getting your favourite Chinese takout. It's hundreds of thousands of DACA recipients facing the threat of being separated from their families and people being buried in improvised ditches because the federal government can't manage a pandemic.
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On April 18 2020 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 06:08 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party. Yes but then your arguing against the 'party' and 'Americans' in general which are not on this forum. Looked to me like most people here on TL preferred Bernie or another candidate over Biden. But he didn't win, so now the choice is between Trump or Biden. I feel like this has gotten a little lost in the discussion. Really I'm arguing those people should stop being loyal to that abusive party. The people that prefer Biden to Bernie are as much a lost cause as well-informed Trump supporters imo. So your saying they should consider voting Republican then? Because that is the only option besides Democrat. Going to be a hard sell I fear but good luck with that.
/s
If you think all the people that voted for Biden in the primary a lost cause then there is no cause left. Your part of a minority and consider the entire majority a lot cause.
And no I don't consider a revolution a realistic position, people are not nearly desperate enough for that.
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Northern Ireland25387 Posts
On April 18 2020 06:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 06:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available. Politics isn't you getting your favourite Chinese takout. It's hundreds of thousands of DACA recipients facing the threat of being separated from their families and people being buried in improvised ditches because the federal government can't manage a pandemic.
Well no it’s a crude analogy, and one specifically talking about Elizabeth Warren in the Democratic primary.
I don’t feel a characterisation of not progressive enough for many people who went to Bernie, and too radical for the types who gravitated to Biden and in limited amounts to others is particularly inaccurate here.
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On April 18 2020 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 06:08 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party. Yes but then your arguing against the 'party' and 'Americans' in general which are not on this forum. Looked to me like most people here on TL preferred Bernie or another candidate over Biden. But he didn't win, so now the choice is between Trump or Biden. I feel like this has gotten a little lost in the discussion. Really I'm arguing those people should stop being loyal to that abusive party. The people that prefer Biden to Bernie are as much a lost cause as well-informed Trump supporters imo. So your saying they should consider voting Republican then? Because that is the only option besides Democrat. Going to be a hard sell I fear but good luck with that. /s If you think all the people that voted for Biden in the primary a lost cause then there is no cause left. Your part of a minority and consider the entire majority a lot cause. And no I don't consider a revolution a realistic position, people are not nearly desperate enough for that.
I would have a different argument if people were honestly taking the position that they're not joining a revolution they see the necessity of because they themselves are comfortable, instead they are trying to argue that they are mature moral actors by sacrificing those that are desperate enough, in order to rationalize sacrificing/not-joining them (by framing it as preventing even more potential harm and the only rational option).
They are voting for Biden to preserve/return to a system they know caused massive harm because they were safe/comfortable/"at brunch", not to save DACA recipients Biden would have caged and denied basic hygiene had they came during his time in the Obama administration imo.
EDIT: I should mention a majority of the party didn't support Biden until they conslidated to a choice between Biden and Bernie and all the other candidates picked Biden and their supporters followed them.
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On April 18 2020 06:09 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 06:03 Nevuk wrote:On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all. That was Liz Warren. She's a couple steps to the right of Sanders, in that she's not as anti-capitalistism - but wants very intense regulations. She was friendlier with the establishment and hovered right around 15% support. She pivoted to the right during the primary on m4a for some strange reason and lost basically all progressive support. Sexism (and/or belief in American's being too sexist to elect a female president) was the larger reason for her not prevailing over Biden, though. Was it really the larger reason? Certainly a factor I would concede. If you’re caught between Bernie who is offering the whole (or a large chunk) platform that a lot of the left want and the centre who want very little of it you’re not going to do particularly well. If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available.
Pretty sure it was the reason.
Sanders only overtook her once she said she didn't want to abolish private health insurance. Before that she was comfortably in the lead with center left/progressive left voters (but not the furthest leftists, who Sanders had about ~14-15% of the vote with). Once she clarified her m4a plans were so much milder she was left with just liberal-somewhat liberal democrats and everyone further left ran to Sanders. Which really was a pity, as she was much more palatable to the party leaders than Sanders was. It was clearly a move designed not to lure in some moderates, but moderates/people obsessed with electability didn't care- her being a woman was ALREADY a dealbreaker.
Basically it's why her pivot to the center cost gained her no support (ie, why she couldn't beat BIDEN).
I think many progressives would be appeased by her as a VP choice for Biden, so I'm not sure I buy the "blander version of Sanders" argument. Tthough there is a LOT of bad blood between them, so I doubt he'd pick her. Even Sanders may be a more likely pick if Biden could make it with no external input.
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Northern Ireland25387 Posts
On April 18 2020 06:57 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 06:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2020 06:03 Nevuk wrote:On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all. That was Liz Warren. She's a couple steps to the right of Sanders, in that she's not as anti-capitalistism - but wants very intense regulations. She was friendlier with the establishment and hovered right around 15% support. She pivoted to the right during the primary on m4a for some strange reason and lost basically all progressive support. Sexism (and/or belief in American's being too sexist to elect a female president) was the larger reason for her not prevailing over Biden, though. Was it really the larger reason? Certainly a factor I would concede. If you’re caught between Bernie who is offering the whole (or a large chunk) platform that a lot of the left want and the centre who want very little of it you’re not going to do particularly well. If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available. Pretty sure it was the reason. Sanders only overtook her once she said she didn't want to abolish private health insurance. Before that she was comfortably in the lead with center left/progressive left voters (but not the furthest leftists, who Sanders had about ~14-15% of the vote with). Once she clarified her m4a plans were so much milder she was left with just liberal-somewhat liberal democrats and everyone further left ran to Sanders. Which really was a pity, as she was much more palatable to the party leaders than Sanders was. It was clearly a move designed not to lure in some moderates, but moderates/people obsessed with electability didn't care- her being a woman was ALREADY a dealbreaker. Basically it's why her pivot to the center cost gained her no support (ie, why she couldn't beat BIDEN). I think many progressives would be appeased by her as a VP choice for Biden, so I'm not sure I buy the "blander version of Sanders" argument. Tthough there is a LOT of bad blood between them, so I doubt he'd pick her. Even Sanders may be a more likely pick if Biden could make it with no external input.
Which seems a bigger factor to me than sexism. My query was based on my reading of your previous post, which may be a misreading.
You say yourself dropping the ambition of her healthcare plans saw her lose support in the left wing and not really make her much ground in the centre while she was doing so .
I would agree that sexism is a factor though absolutely.
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On April 18 2020 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 06:57 Nevuk wrote:On April 18 2020 06:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2020 06:03 Nevuk wrote:On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all. That was Liz Warren. She's a couple steps to the right of Sanders, in that she's not as anti-capitalistism - but wants very intense regulations. She was friendlier with the establishment and hovered right around 15% support. She pivoted to the right during the primary on m4a for some strange reason and lost basically all progressive support. Sexism (and/or belief in American's being too sexist to elect a female president) was the larger reason for her not prevailing over Biden, though. Was it really the larger reason? Certainly a factor I would concede. If you’re caught between Bernie who is offering the whole (or a large chunk) platform that a lot of the left want and the centre who want very little of it you’re not going to do particularly well. If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available. Pretty sure it was the reason. Sanders only overtook her once she said she didn't want to abolish private health insurance. Before that she was comfortably in the lead with center left/progressive left voters (but not the furthest leftists, who Sanders had about ~14-15% of the vote with). Once she clarified her m4a plans were so much milder she was left with just liberal-somewhat liberal democrats and everyone further left ran to Sanders. Which really was a pity, as she was much more palatable to the party leaders than Sanders was. It was clearly a move designed not to lure in some moderates, but moderates/people obsessed with electability didn't care- her being a woman was ALREADY a dealbreaker. Basically it's why her pivot to the center cost gained her no support (ie, why she couldn't beat BIDEN). I think many progressives would be appeased by her as a VP choice for Biden, so I'm not sure I buy the "blander version of Sanders" argument. Tthough there is a LOT of bad blood between them, so I doubt he'd pick her. Even Sanders may be a more likely pick if Biden could make it with no external input. Which seems a bigger factor to me than sexism. My query was based on my reading of your previous post, which may be a misreading. You say yourself dropping the ambition of her healthcare plans saw her lose support in the left wing and not really make her much ground in the centre while she was doing so . I would agree that sexism is a factor though absolutely.
Ah, my previous post was that her failing to win over the moderates from Biden was due to sexism. Wasn't worded the best.
On April 18 2020 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party.
It's more that the 2016 election made democratic voters extremely cynical. They learned that "swing" voters don't give a damn about rape accusations against white men. So when the most "electable" (I hate this word, it's a way for people to code "moderate/straight/white/male" without having to say it) candidate has a rape accusation, they're going to shrug it off. Most of his support isn't because any individual PERSON likes him, it's because they are convinced that their neighbors would vote for him but not anyone else.
(Personally I think they learned the wrong lesson: Hillary ran one of the worst campaigns ever and wasn't particularly popular, but her credentials were fine. If she had run a perfect campaign she would've crushed Trump even with bad luck).
That said, there is less evidence for this specific accusation than there is for Trump's accusers and there hasn't been a pattern established. If 2-3 more people emerge with stories of similar credibility (ie, they aren't from GOP trolls like the Franken ones started out with), then I can see it starting to matter a lot more.
It's easy for people to shrug off this as a one-off as the woman has views politically opposing Biden's (though not from the right) and has written nice things about Russia. That's what I see when I read comments on sites populated by more moderate democrats.
I totally believe that a guy in political power from his era has probably committed sexual assault at least once in their lives. If you've ever seen popular movies from his childhood, rape was practically prescribed as the best option for letting a girl know you liked them (all the playing hard to get, being coy, etc.)
However, If people like me don't vote, Trump wins, as I do live in a swing state. It's 1 rape vs 19+ rapes, and I know damn well that the republicans here don't care about rape in the slightest.
The people you have to convince that it's a big deal aren't the people on TL. It's the older black church ladies in the South and boomer factory workers in the rust belt. Those are his core support.
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Northern Ireland25387 Posts
On April 18 2020 08:03 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 07:18 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2020 06:57 Nevuk wrote:On April 18 2020 06:09 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 18 2020 06:03 Nevuk wrote:On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all. That was Liz Warren. She's a couple steps to the right of Sanders, in that she's not as anti-capitalistism - but wants very intense regulations. She was friendlier with the establishment and hovered right around 15% support. She pivoted to the right during the primary on m4a for some strange reason and lost basically all progressive support. Sexism (and/or belief in American's being too sexist to elect a female president) was the larger reason for her not prevailing over Biden, though. Was it really the larger reason? Certainly a factor I would concede. If you’re caught between Bernie who is offering the whole (or a large chunk) platform that a lot of the left want and the centre who want very little of it you’re not going to do particularly well. If I love spicy food I’ll take the hottest on the menu, and if I don’t I’ll take something bland. Something in between doesn’t really work for either group if their preference is available. Pretty sure it was the reason. Sanders only overtook her once she said she didn't want to abolish private health insurance. Before that she was comfortably in the lead with center left/progressive left voters (but not the furthest leftists, who Sanders had about ~14-15% of the vote with). Once she clarified her m4a plans were so much milder she was left with just liberal-somewhat liberal democrats and everyone further left ran to Sanders. Which really was a pity, as she was much more palatable to the party leaders than Sanders was. It was clearly a move designed not to lure in some moderates, but moderates/people obsessed with electability didn't care- her being a woman was ALREADY a dealbreaker. Basically it's why her pivot to the center cost gained her no support (ie, why she couldn't beat BIDEN). I think many progressives would be appeased by her as a VP choice for Biden, so I'm not sure I buy the "blander version of Sanders" argument. Tthough there is a LOT of bad blood between them, so I doubt he'd pick her. Even Sanders may be a more likely pick if Biden could make it with no external input. Which seems a bigger factor to me than sexism. My query was based on my reading of your previous post, which may be a misreading. You say yourself dropping the ambition of her healthcare plans saw her lose support in the left wing and not really make her much ground in the centre while she was doing so . I would agree that sexism is a factor though absolutely. Ah, my previous post was that her failing to win over the moderates from Biden was due to sexism. Wasn't worded the best. Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party. It's more that the 2016 election made democratic voters extremely cynical. They learned that "swing" voters don't give a damn about rape accusations against white men. So when the most "electable" (I hate this word, it's a way for people to code "moderate/straight/white/male" without having to say it) candidate has a rape accusation, they're going to shrug it off. Most of his support isn't because any individual PERSON likes him, it's because they are convinced that their neighbors would vote for him but not anyone else. (Personally I think they learned the wrong lesson: Hillary ran one of the worst campaigns ever and wasn't particularly popular, but her credentials were fine. If she had run a perfect campaign she would've crushed Trump even with bad luck). That said, there is less evidence for this specific accusation than there is for Trump's accusers and there hasn't been a pattern established. If 2-3 more people emerge with stories of similar credibility (ie, they aren't from GOP trolls like the Franken ones started out with), then I can see it starting to matter a lot more. It's easy for people to shrug off this as a one-off as the woman has views politically opposing Biden's (though not from the right) and has written nice things about Russia. That's what I see when I read comments on sites populated by more moderate democrats. I totally believe that a guy in political power from his era has probably committed sexual assault at least once in their lives. If you've ever seen popular movies from his childhood, rape was practically prescribed as the best option for letting a girl know you liked them (all the playing hard to get, being coy, etc.) However, If people like me don't vote, Trump wins, as I do live in a swing state. It's 1 rape vs 19+ rapes, and I know damn well that the republicans here don't care about rape in the slightest. The people you have to convince that it's a big deal aren't the people on TL. It's the older black church ladies in the South and boomer factory workers in the rust belt. Those are his core support.
Almost 100%. If not real sexual assault, some form of impropriety, be it the firing of people for a rejection of advances or whatever, the leveraging of position etc.
We’re getting there, still a long way to go in dealing with these problems in society.
Be it Kavanaugh, be it Biden the main problem in both instances was women didn’t feel they could come forward at the time, for whatever reason they had.
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On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump.
In a choice between two possible sexual predators I'm walking away, as should anyone else.
SURELY you recognise that this has to be investigated? You seriously think this isn't going to be used against him?
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On April 18 2020 09:50 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. In a choice between two possible sexual predators I'm walking away, as should anyone else. SURELY you recognise that this has to be investigated? You seriously think this isn't going to be used against him?
The precedent has been set with both Trump and Kavanaugh. Regardless of the truth of the accusation, their is less evidence for the accusation than there was against either Trump or Kavanaugh. It's not going to stick unless a lot more comes up.
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Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat.
Innocent until proven guilty. Especially with rape allegations. I'm certainly not condoning sexual assault or rape - but destroying a mans career because a woman points a finger is idiotic too.
Should he be investigated? Absolutely. Until that investigation finds him guilty, he's innocent. That's how it works, and it's good that it works that way. One would've thought that the white knights etc learned from the Johnny Depp/Amber Heard clusterfuck.
And yes, if he touched someone inappropriately, he should get the punishment that the law requires. And once that is settled, it's settled.
This entire "court of public opinion" bullshit from the left has to stop. The main problem with self proclaimed "progressives" isn't that everyone is trying to suppress them, it's their own bullshit making them so ridiculous that nobody with a shred of sense could jump onto that bandwagon.
And that's me as a liberal (european liberal, labour supporter since Keir Starmer, so basically left of communism in american terms) saying that.
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On April 18 2020 10:50 JimmiC wrote:
The question that progressives need to ask themselves is why the people that would benefit most from these policies are not voting for Bernie, they are voting for Biden and even picking Trump over Bernie. One of the democratic strategists I was reading that the poor, often made up of Black and Hispanics but lots of whites as well do not want a bunch of middle class, college educated people telling them that they don't know what is best for themselves, it is condescending and pushes them away. With Hispanic's you have the extra layer of socialism meaning Venezuala and Cuba to many. And I think outside of a couple posters here, progressives want to protect and improve democracy not destroy it.
What is a better way to reach these people? Because while Bernie did a great job invigorating white, college educated middle class people, he didn't reach the speak to the audience he needed to win the primary let alone the election.
There seems to be a sentiment here that the dems would rather lose than have Bernie. But from every poll I've seen and the Primary results Biden out preformed Bernie. Which actually makes sense since many independent centrists might prefer Trump to Bernie.
If the progressives aver hope to win the Dem party they need to find a way to speak to them in a way that does not belittle them and send them running in the opposite direction.
Because the news they watch tells them Bernie would be bad for them, for starters. You have people on MSNBC literally equating Bernie winning 3/4 of the early primaries as the Nazi's rolling into France and equating Bernie supporters to Brownshirts. No real airtime is given to explaining his platform and when he's asked to do so in the debates there isn't enough time to give a proper answer. Meanwhile, for Biden they do the two step of "most electable/able to beat Trump" and "He's Obama's white friend" cause you know, MANA and whatnot.
You see further evidence in that Venezuala/Cuba comparison as Socialism is used as a buzzword to scare people up with "communism." Can you imagine how fucking dumb it would look if people started going "We can't elect anybody that is putting out a system built on democracy because of North Korea!"?
I'm sure there's other factors in the Black/Hispanic communities/thought spaces that influence it too, but as a white dude I'm not about to go prescribing them with a limited current day interaction frequency.
Every poll I saw before Super Tuesday had every candidate winning over Trump except Bloomberg, and in most of them, Bernie was winning by the biggest margin. However, I will admit that might have been skewed by the echo a bit. The primary just says what Democrats think. It's a focus group for a club and tons of people aren't in it.
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On April 18 2020 10:50 JimmiC wrote:
The question that progressives need to ask themselves is why the people that would benefit most from these policies are not voting for Bernie, they are voting for Biden and even picking Trump over Bernie. One of the democratic strategists I was reading that the poor, often made up of Black and Hispanics but lots of whites as well do not want a bunch of middle class, college educated people telling them that they don't know what is best for themselves, it is condescending and pushes them away. With Hispanic's you have the extra layer of socialism meaning Venezuala and Cuba to many. And I think outside of a couple posters here, progressives want to protect and improve democracy not destroy it.
What is a better way to reach these people? Because while Bernie did a great job invigorating white, college educated middle class people, he didn't reach the speak to the audience he needed to win the primary let alone the election.
There seems to be a sentiment here that the dems would rather lose than have Bernie. But from every poll I've seen and the Primary results Biden out preformed Bernie. Which actually makes sense since many independent centrists might prefer Trump to Bernie.
If the progressives aver hope to win the Dem party they need to find a way to speak to them in a way that does not belittle them and send them running in the opposite direction.
Head to Head vs Trump it was about equal. They turned out different constituents though - Biden gets more moderates and Bernie got I think 12% of voters who are like GH.
It did make some people a little uncomfortable that those voters were from less reliable voting demographics than Biden's had, but generally if people tell a pollster they're certain to vote they really are.
I have no idea what the electoral math was though. Bernie definitely did worse in Florida, but it has been trending red for a while and I think it is a lost cause. Off the cuff people said his support was concentrated on the Pacific NW and CA, but I don't think that's the case. Iowa and AZ may have done better with him on the ballot.
Bernie would do worse in the South, but it isn't like that matters. None of those states would vote blue ever on the presidential level.
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On April 18 2020 10:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 09:50 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. In a choice between two possible sexual predators I'm walking away, as should anyone else. SURELY you recognise that this has to be investigated? You seriously think this isn't going to be used against him? The precedent has been set with both Trump and Kavanaugh. Regardless of the truth of the accusation, their is less evidence for the accusation than there was against either Trump or Kavanaugh. It's not going to stick unless a lot more comes up.
Is this the therapist note (which none of us saw) argument again or are you referring to something else when you suggest there's more evidence for Ford's allegation against Kavanaugh than Reade's against Biden?
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On April 18 2020 12:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 10:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2020 09:50 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. In a choice between two possible sexual predators I'm walking away, as should anyone else. SURELY you recognise that this has to be investigated? You seriously think this isn't going to be used against him? The precedent has been set with both Trump and Kavanaugh. Regardless of the truth of the accusation, their is less evidence for the accusation than there was against either Trump or Kavanaugh. It's not going to stick unless a lot more comes up. Is this the therapist note (which none of us saw) argument again or are you referring to something else when you suggest there's more evidence for Ford's allegation against Kavanaugh than Reade's against Biden?
Not entirely sure I'd say more in a very significant sense, but Kavanaugh had multiple accusers and his defense was uh, awful enough to be negative proof, to say the least. ("I LIKE BEER"x11/calendars).
Biden hasn't really presented any defense that I've heard of (I think there was some PR nonsense that said nothing basically).
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On April 18 2020 12:46 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 12:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 18 2020 10:24 Stratos_speAr wrote:On April 18 2020 09:50 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump. In a choice between two possible sexual predators I'm walking away, as should anyone else. SURELY you recognise that this has to be investigated? You seriously think this isn't going to be used against him? The precedent has been set with both Trump and Kavanaugh. Regardless of the truth of the accusation, their is less evidence for the accusation than there was against either Trump or Kavanaugh. It's not going to stick unless a lot more comes up. Is this the therapist note (which none of us saw) argument again or are you referring to something else when you suggest there's more evidence for Ford's allegation against Kavanaugh than Reade's against Biden? Not entirely sure I'd say more in a very significant sense, but Kavanaugh had multiple accusers and his defense was uh, awful enough to be negative proof, to say the least. ("I LIKE BEER"x11/calendars). Biden hasn't really presented any defense that I've heard of (I think there was some PR nonsense that said nothing basically).
I think they both have multiple accusers though the accusations and evidence varies among them. Not sure it matters but all of Biden's accusers describe events when he was already an established adult who had certainly been confronted about his invasion of women's personal space and inappropriate touching/kissing before he had to be again during this current campaign as well.
Surely people told him to stop after the incident with Chris Coons' daughter in 2015. Yet he had to be reminded (and made a bad joke about it) again during this 2020 campaign.
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EPT
