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On April 17 2020 20:37 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:15 Velr wrote:
Despite Bidens horribleness, I also feel like many people here and many other places on the internet are still just bitching that Bernie didn't take it. The "moderate" vote was in fact split between all the candidates, the timing for them dropping out right before super thuesday was just a smart move, too bad Bernie seems to have proven to be basically incapable of making any friends in Washington despite his long political career.
As Hillary said: "Nobody likes him"... Well, seems like she was right. Stating it like this is claiming that there is no common front between leftists and moderates. You are painting an "us" vs "them" picture. You are reinforcing and validating everything the bitching Bernie people are saying. Don't be surprised when you create that environment that one team doesn't want to help out. In a hypothetical sane world "the moderates" would represent a diverse set of policies and ideals that we together as primary voters could pick from. In that world you never have an orchestrated drop-out to coronate a candidate by party leadership. In such a world you don't even really need a Bernie Sanders out on the left because the party would represent its entire coalition in all of its candidates.
Have you been online in the last 2 years?
The "progressives" use liberal/moderate as a swear word. The "us vs them" picture was, from what i saw, at least as much if not more painted by the progressives.
Every candidate besides bernie was basically a no go for a large part of them.
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I mean, the sort of the thing the left wants in the US is the sort of thing that most other 1st world countries have and say is pretty great, they're things that most americans when polled agree they want, so you might be able to understand our frustrations when people purport to want all of these things that we want, but also they don't, won't ever vote for it, and all of us on the left are childish, naive, purity testers for trying to make these things happen, also we should shut up and vote for someone accused of sexual assault for America's highest office and that don't worry definitely next time things can change and be different, life will definitely improve under THIS guy who says he wants to take the country back to how things WERE.
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On April 18 2020 04:17 Zambrah wrote:
I mean, the sort of the thing the left wants in the US is the sort of thing that most other 1st world countries have and say is pretty great, they're things that most americans when polled agree they want, so you might be able to understand our frustrations when people purport to want all of these things that we want, but also they don't, won't ever vote for it, and all of us on the left are childish, naive, purity testers for trying to make these things happen, also we should shut up and vote for someone accused of sexual assault for America's highest office and that don't worry definitely next time things can change and be different, life will definitely improve under THIS guy who says he wants to take the country back to how things WERE.
I think they know better but they literally can't imagine an alternative to falling in line. They've been well trained.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 18 2020 04:01 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 03:20 Logo wrote:
The trolly problem is incredibly dumb. But to entertain the analogy for a second here is the situation...
US Leftists:
* Don't build that trolley it will kill people
* If you build that trolley you will break the lever so we can't stop it going down the bad path
* We are screaming that your actions are building a trolley that will kill people in large numbers
* We are outright telling you the trolley actions you are taking are dangerous and we want no part in this scenario.
* We've dedicated massive resources to prevent you from building this trolley in order to advert a catastrophe.
* We have actual evidence that you are intentionally building this death trolley to avoid a loss of power and money. Please stop.
Moderate Response:
Oops, well please buy a ticket for our trolley so maybe you can steer it down the correct path. If you do we'll just keep building the same trolley because it keeps selling out for some reason. Will you actually ever outgrow this childish worldview where you're the enlightened good guy who has all the answers, all your opponents just want to do evil things and harm people rather than accepting that simply not everyone is on board with your idea of what the good life looks like, and that in the real world there are multitudes of interests, many of which are legitimate and which need to be reconciled? Does the US left not even have an ounce for some sort of epistemic humility and can consider that they may not actually be right? Is that a notion that occasionally occurs to people who unironically believe this stuff and are older than 16? Just look at the UK if you want to know what happens if you actually run someone who believes this nonsense. They got the biggest Conservative landslide since Thatcher.
Elements of whose own party actively sabotaged two general election campaigns. With Brexit looming large over both. Which was a suspicion many had anyway, recently bolstered by the publication of leaks.
As I’ve previously said this does not equate to Corbyn winning without those factors, absolutely not.
The parallels are rather stark though, aspects of the centre left in Britain demonstrably did not fall into line behind the winning Labour candidate. In the US the centre left candidate wins and the left are expected to just fall into line without getting any kind of concessions or they’re to blame for Trump getting a second term.
That aside I agree with your sentiment. People aren’t evil, they’re generally just wrong, or misguided. Convince them of a better path and if your attempts aren’t working try something else.
The ostensible left is awful at doing this as they’re extremely myopic and inflexible in adjusting the message and not alienating people who may have legitimate problems. Immigration being one such area of special note. Clinton’s ‘deplorables’ quote being the high water mark of this mentality in action.
You can still be pro-immigration of course but you have to actually sell the benefits to the skeptics, plausibly listen to concerns instead of just saying they’re all xenophobic etc
I changed a view votes to Remain, obviously insufficiently to swing the election alas but these things can be done in such a maddeningly simple fashion that the electoral strategists who don’t do them absolutely baffle me.
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It's not that infrequent that people have political disagreements because they have different moralities (or, if you want, are "evil"). Especially in contexts where we are discussing our politics, so people have put some thought into their views. I'm sure there are some Fox News viewers who don't realize that the Republican party is using liberalism as a cover rather than following its ideological principles, but not that many. Some centrists really are leftists who think they're doing pragmatic leftism, but again, not that many (and definitely not Nyxisto).
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I dont get why people are still so hang up on biden beeing the candidate,its the wrong aproach in a situation like this. More polarization will only push people away.
Biden is the by far best national candidate for this situation. The progressives should start to try get local victorys first like i did mention before in this thread. Get governors ,representatives and senators in progressive counties and states and then take it from there, a bottom up aproach. Thats the only realistic way to slowly expand their influence in politics,you have to be pragmatic and realistic in your idealism.
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On April 18 2020 04:17 Zambrah wrote:
I mean, the sort of the thing the left wants in the US is the sort of thing that most other 1st world countries have and say is pretty great, they're things that most americans when polled agree they want.
The highlighted part is important because it's at the basis of a lot of arguments I see from the American left that want to make it seem as if the policies endorsed are morally obvious, and if they would just bring the US to the standard of a random western European country that would be true, but it isn't, this is from Tyler Cowen's blog, putting the Sanders platform into context:
+ Show Spoiler +Our best tool is to compare Labour’s 2019 manifesto against the Sanders’ economic platform. Doing so makes clear that Bernie is more radical than Corbyn on economics, both in absolute terms and relative to their countries’ respective politics.
Take the size of government. The Manhattan Institute’s Brian Riedl calculates that Sanders’ promises would add $97.5 trillion to spending over a decade, taking total annual US government spending to around 70% of GDP and more than doubling the size of the federal government. Even if climate investments prove a one-off, spending would settle at a massive 64% of GDP. That’s far higher than Labour’s planned 44% and even France’s current 57% (itself the highest in the OECD).
A look at certain individual spending areas also underlines just how radical the Sanders agenda is. Like Labour, he wants government-funded free public higher education. Unlike Labour, he’d also forgive all existing student debts. On climate change and infrastructure, Labour planned for £400 billion investment over 10 years (about 20% of current annual UK GDP). Sanders wants to invest $16.3 trillion over 15 years (about 75% of current annual US GDP.) On healthcare, both want government spending to expand to cover all medical treatment, prescription charges, long-term care for the elderly, and dentistry. But only Sanders would explicitly ban private health insurance (Labour did consider that proposal but held off in the end).
True, Corbyn and McDonnell favoured nationalising buses, railways, the energy sector, water, and parts of the broadband network. Corbyn even wanted free government-funded broadband for all. But even here the results of Sanders’ pledges would bring similar results. He would set up “publicly owned” and “democratically controlled” broadband networks. And his Green New Deal would bring most public transport under government control and deliver effective public ownership of energy production.
When it comes to financing their promises, Sanders is arguably more radical again. Labour planned to only borrow to invest, raising the deficit by about 2% of GDP per year. But Bernie’s tax plans get nowhere near fully funding his agenda. Absent further broad-based tax rises, Riedl calculates annual borrowing would soar to around 30% of US GDP if his spending plans were implemented…
Combined with national insurance, Labour’s top marginal income tax rate would have been 52%. Sanders’ top federal income tax rate alone would be 52%, bringing a top combined top rate of around 80% once state and payroll taxes are considered. Sanders wants a new wealth tax too, another option Labour shirked. And while Labour wanted to raise the UK’s main corporation tax rate to 26%, Bernie would opt for 35% with a broad base.
If all the American progressive left wanted was to provide universal healthcare, good quality education and equitable welfare policies you'd be completely right pointing out that this is relatively obvious and people who oppose it are sort of evil in a sense. But they don't understand how the countries function they're trying to emulate and they go way, way beyond anything you find anywhere else.
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On April 18 2020 04:33 pmh wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I dont get why people are still so hang up on biden beeing the candidate,its the wrong aproach in a situation like this. More polarization will only push people away.
Biden is the by far best national candidate for this situation. The progressives should start to try get local victorys first like i did mention before in this thread. Get governors ,representatives and senators in progressive counties and states and then take it from there, a bottom up aproach. Thats the only realistic way to slowly expand their influence in politics,you have to be pragmatic and realistic in your idealism.
Just to be clear, a bunch of Black leftists tried this and were harassed/imprisoned/assassinated by the federal government, KKK, police and others.
It's not like we didn't try that already (or Biden hasn't been a part of criminalizing them).
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Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time.
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I am not sure if the above post is aimed at me or green horizons but green horizons is,forgive me for saying so lol,a polarizing troll. An amusing,intelligent and well spoken one but a troll none the less.
Maybe i am wrong and he does sincerely believe and stands behind everything he says but i have my doubts.
(no offence btw;)
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On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time.
He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all.
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On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all.
The establishment is supposed to be that wing. That's why you haven't seen it.
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As much as I want to see the left in the US succeed, you can't have it both ways. Either you stay in the big tent party, use its resources and compromise. Or you go your own way and start from scratch. You can't both use it and not compromise, that's not how anything works.
If there's two factions in a party and both consider the other's win as a loss for themselves, that's telling me that maybe the argument of staying together to avoid a different party winning in a landslide a few elections in a row before things settle down has run its course.
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Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin.
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On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin.
It also doesn't work in a FPTP system.
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On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin.
No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly.
You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate.
Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet.
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On April 18 2020 05:30 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. It also doesn't work in a FPTP system.
There are FPTP countries with relevant 3rd parties, without looking it up I'm tempted to say the US is the only one that doesn't have one. The alternative is to wait for the people that benefit the most from FPTP to scrap it, which I find less likely than a 3rd party becoming a force.
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On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh.
Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President.
Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump.
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On April 18 2020 05:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 05:31 iamthedave wrote:On April 18 2020 05:16 Zambrah wrote:
Progressives would be okay branching out into another political party (and myself and others are likely to vote Third Party for President in the general election), but if you haven't noticed the idea of not lumping ourselves into the Democrats is something that gets us blamed for Trump being elected, and called unreasonable, and generally gets us lambasted by the people who say they need us but also don't want anything to do with what we want.
Kind of feels like a shitty position tbh. If it wasnt for people like AOC and Ilhan Omar I would've given up and just committed to leaving the US to it's ruin. No left-leaning person with an ounce of decency should vote for Biden until the allegations against him have been investigated thoroughly. You can't pull the song and dance you pulled with Kavanaugh and then not do it with your Presidential Candidate. Which isn't a dig at you, if anything it's support. Biden doesn't deserve your vote yet. There are more then 1 (or 2) possible candidates for the Supreme Court. There were a plethera of choices that were not Kavanaugh. Barring something massive either Trump or Biden will be the next President. Don't forget that most people here didn't want Biden during the primary but the election has now become a binary choice between Biden and Trump.
Could argue they had a binary choice with Biden and Bernie and Democrats as a party think Biden is the lesser evil between him and Bernie and people that don't agree don't belong in that party.
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On April 18 2020 05:05 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2020 04:59 Zambrah wrote:
Bernie is not the only American progressive, and god what I would give for people to stop conflating him with every American progressive.
I do not agree with Bernie 100% on everything.
I will not do whatever Bernie tells me to do.
If people like you stopped telling the left what the left wanted we might not be so fucking irritated at you all of the time. He and his platform seemed to be the central progressive candidate of this election campaign. He seemed to be endorsed by people like AOC. Is there another wing of progressives with a sort of middle-of-the-road agenda that isn't antagonistic towards establishment politics or the Democratic party that has actual weight? It's not a facetious or rhetorical question I haven't seen anything like it at all.
That was Liz Warren. She's a couple steps to the right of Sanders, in that she's not as anti-capitalistism - but wants very intense regulations. She was friendlier with the establishment and hovered right around 15% support.
She pivoted to the right during the primary on m4a for some strange reason and lost basically all progressive support. Sexism (and/or belief in American's being too sexist to elect a female president) was the larger reason for her not prevailing over Biden, though.
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EPT
