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I find that position (vote for Biden regardless of whether he murdered someone) morally reprehensible but I accept that's the position the system and Democrats/Republicans have settled on.
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On April 17 2020 02:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
I find that position (vote for Biden regardless of whether he murdered someone) morally reprehensible but I accept that's the position the system and Democrats have settled on.
And the converse holds just as true, myself and others find your position (don't vote against Trump regardless of the things he's done) morally reprehensible, but accept that some of those who occupy liminal political spaces maintain it nonetheless. So what, we've been over this a thousand times at this point, and no, you won't magically stumble on some euphemism or metaphor for voting for Biden that will suddenly reveal the depravity of those who have decided its the better choice than its alternatives.
The more vulgar and drippy the frame, the more you deal in caricature and less with the substance of the positions at issue.
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On April 17 2020 02:59 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 02:51 GreenHorizons wrote:
I find that position (vote for Biden regardless of whether he murdered someone) morally reprehensible but I accept that's the position the system and Democrats have settled on. And the converse holds just as true, myself and others find your position (don't vote against Trump regardless of the things he's done) morally reprehensible, but accept that some of those who occupy liminal political spaces maintain it nonetheless. So what, we've been over this a thousand times at this point, and no, you won't magically stumble on some euphemism or metaphor for voting for Biden that will suddenly reveal the depravity of those who have decided its the better choice than its alternatives. The more vulgar and drippy the frame, the more you deal in caricature and less with the substance of the positions at issue.
It's important I think to make it clear that Trump doesn't cross a line of unacceptability for Biden voters. They could vote for Trump if they discovered Biden was worse (whatever that would mean). So they have no objections to Trump they couldn't overcome to support him like Trump supporters do now.
That means pointing out the hypocrisy, stupidity, depravity, etc of voting for Trump is just as futile for Democrats as it is myself.
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On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations.
Again, cart before the horse.
The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you.
If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again.
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On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again.
I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump.
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Given the extreme backlash that Pete Buttigieg got, who is as morally decent and fairly left-wing as it got, from the more extreme elements of Sanders base I think this entire moral outrage about Biden is just nonsense anyway. There's a contingent of angry rose twitter people who wanted their saviour Bernie and they'd throw a tantrum regardless of who else was running. The stuff that Buttigieg had thrown at him from calling him a rat, a shill, or not gay enough was pretty disgusting.
If I was some evil gazillionaire I'd just pay those people to post more on Twitter because it's making the entire left-wing seem nuts.
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On April 17 2020 03:44 Nyxisto wrote:
Given the extreme backlash that Pete Buttigieg got, who is as morally decent and fairly left-wing as it got, from the more extreme elements of Sanders base I think this entire moral outrage about Biden is just nonsense anyway. There's a contingent of angry rose twitter people who wanted their saviour Bernie and they'd throw a tantrum regardless of who else was running. The stuff that Buttigieg had thrown at him from calling him a rat, a shill, or not gay enough was pretty disgusting.
If I was some evil gazillionaire I'd just pay those people to post more on Twitter because it's making the entire left-wing seem nuts.
Everyone knows this is what's just underneath the surface of Democrats rhetoric about moving left after this election so it takes an incredible amount of gullibility imo for this rose twitter contingent you speak of to abandon their morality to support Biden and a party full of this type of sentiment.
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On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump.
Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants.
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On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants.
I agree, its not like, "well shit, turns out we elected a sex offender, guess we're stuck with him now!" holds up, ESPECIALLY so many months off from the election. I would be 10x as okay with Pete Buttigieg since at least hes not a sex offender, as much as I find him politically disingenuous and not a ton better than Biden on stated policy. At least we'd be holding ourselves to "NO FUCKING RAPISTS OR SEX OFFENDERS" as a standard instead of saying, "kay well Trumps one, so we can have one too."
DNCs made it clear before theyll do what they like, and preventing a rapist/sex offender from attaining highest office is something I believe most of us were for last election. We have plenty of time to throw up one of the other candidates, plenty of time 'til November rolls around.
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On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants.
Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency.
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Despite Bidens horribleness, I also feel like many people here and many other places on the internet are still just bitching that Bernie didn't take it. The "moderate" vote was in fact split between all the candidates, the timing for them dropping out right before super thuesday was just a smart move, too bad Bernie seems to have proven to be basically incapable of making any friends in Washington despite his long political career.
As Hillary said: "Nobody likes him"... Well, seems like she was right.
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On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency.
Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had.
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On April 17 2020 05:21 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency. Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had.
So you see no reason it should matter that this accusation is disputed (and the Franken one wasn’t, IIRC)?
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On April 17 2020 05:40 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:21 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency. Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had. So you see no reason it should matter that this accusation is disputed (and the Franken one wasn’t, IIRC)?
With Franken there was straight up evidence in the open. With Biden there should be an inquiry. There isn't. It's not disputed, it's ignored.
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On April 17 2020 05:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:40 ChristianS wrote:On April 17 2020 05:21 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency. Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had. So you see no reason it should matter that this accusation is disputed (and the Franken one wasn’t, IIRC)? With Franken there was straight up evidence in the open. With Biden there should be an inquiry. There isn't. It's not disputed, it's ignored.
I’m fine with an inquiry. Whose job is it? I’d think the media, but is there someone else? Congress? The DNC?
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On April 17 2020 05:21 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency. Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had.
This grossly trivializes how badly the Democratic party would be injured if they had Biden step aside now and picked some random other person (e.g. Buttigieg, Cuomo, etc.)
I 1000000% guarantee that if Biden was forced aside tomorrow, every single Bernie Bro and their mother, including many people on this board (GH for sure) would absolutely demand that Bernie became the nominee, and if he didn't, they would just use that as an excuse to not vote for the Democratic nominee, regardless of who the nominee actually was.
It would probably cause an even worse fracture in the party than their currently is. It would be PR suicide for the party. If we're just thinking from a cynical/selfish PoV for the Democratic establishment, there is really zero incentive for them to push Biden aside. They won't gain any of the progressives that object to him in the first place, will have no guarantee that their next pick will have the support of the general electorate that Biden does (especially the black support that he does), and it will just look terrible to the public-at-large.
Their best bet is to just ram him through and have him step aside as late as possible (hopefully after the election), either due to the sexual assault allegations or due to the likely dementia that he is developing.
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On April 17 2020 07:23 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:53 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 05:40 ChristianS wrote:On April 17 2020 05:21 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency. Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had. So you see no reason it should matter that this accusation is disputed (and the Franken one wasn’t, IIRC)? With Franken there was straight up evidence in the open. With Biden there should be an inquiry. There isn't. It's not disputed, it's ignored. I’m fine with an inquiry. Whose job is it? I’d think the media, but is there someone else? Congress? The DNC?
No idea, not my job to know that.
On April 17 2020 08:25 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 05:21 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 05:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 04:03 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 03:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 17 2020 03:12 Gahlo wrote:On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Again, cart before the horse. The Democratic party isn't obligated to have Biden be their candidate. They can still choose "Neither Trump nor Biden" and still have it be a meaningful choice. Even if they continue the hard no stance on Bernie, they could probably play out primaries with some other moderate stooge they reactivate and hand them the nomination at a brokered convention by their own rules. The DNC, by not at least having a hearing and showing 0 intention to, have chosen to ignore the claim - regardless of its veracity. You get around voting for a possible rapist by not having the possible rapist representing you. If I didn't live in a swing state and RBG wasn't going to be 91 by the time the 2024 election came around I'd be voting 3rd party again. I know the primary could have hypothetically been different, but we're past that now. I agree with you that I'd love to have a more moral candidate to vote for, which is one of the many reasons why I preferred Sanders, but at this point in time I'm thinking in terms of the general election... because that's where we are now. The primaries are over. After this general election ends, and the 2020 president has been elected, I'll happily go back to championing whichever candidate I believe the most in, for the next primary. Because we'll have options again. But right now, all of the options have been reduced to just Biden and Trump. Except we're really not "past that now", the DNC can do whatever the fuck it wants. Do you really think that Biden dropping out now, making the primary irrelevant, and the DNC installing a new candidate for the general election, won't fuck up the chances of beating Trump? That's exactly how to disillusion the entire base that actually was fine with a Biden presidency. Given the reason? No. Assuming the Democratic party actually cares about what they say they care about then this should be no different when Franken was called to resign from a job he already had. This grossly trivializes how badly the Democratic party would be injured if they had Biden step aside now and picked some random other person (e.g. Buttigieg, Cuomo, etc.) I 1000000% guarantee that if Biden was forced aside tomorrow, every single Bernie Bro and their mother, including many people on this board (GH for sure) would absolutely demand that Bernie became the nominee, and if he didn't, they would just use that as an excuse to not vote for the Democratic nominee, regardless of who the nominee actually was. It would probably cause an even worse fracture in the party than their currently is. It would be PR suicide for the party. If we're just thinking from a cynical/selfish PoV for the Democratic establishment, there is really zero incentive for them to push Biden aside. They won't gain any of the progressives that object to him in the first place, will have no guarantee that their next pick will have the support of the general electorate that Biden does (especially the black support that he does), and it will just look terrible to the public-at-large. Their best bet is to just ram him through and have him step aside as late as possible (hopefully after the election), either due to the sexual assault allegations or due to the likely dementia that he is developing.
And putting up an alleged rapist and going "our alleged rapist is better than their alleged rapist" when you're a party that's supposed to be a champion of civil rights isn't signing away votes and selling out what you believe in?
If Trump is really as bad as they make him out to be, and he is - no doubt about that, then if the Democratic party can't beat him in 2 elections without putting up an alleged rapist, then it needs to take a long look in the mirror.
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I get the idea of regional blocs to deal with economic issues like reopening the economy and for further economic cooperation. But how did Kentucky get invited to the midwest bloc?
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On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations.
You'd vote for him if you believed he was guilty?
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On April 17 2020 11:15 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote:
I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own.
People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. You'd vote for him if you believed he was guilty?
This is one of the reasons why so many are Bernie supporters.
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EPT
