EPTWe get it you want a socialist revolution to happen. That's not coming anytime soon so people are asking what your opinion is on something that is very concrete and short term. Just answer a simple question with a simple answer so everyone gets to move on.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2267
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Sermokala
United States14104 Posts
We get it you want a socialist revolution to happen. That's not coming anytime soon so people are asking what your opinion is on something that is very concrete and short term. Just answer a simple question with a simple answer so everyone gets to move on. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On April 16 2020 10:05 ChristianS wrote: @Zambrah: I think I agree with 99% of what you wrote there. I suspect the majority of people here agree with each other on the broad stuff, we're all too busy getting infuriated with each other over the small stuff to notice though.  | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23732 Posts
On April 16 2020 11:02 Zambrah wrote: I suspect the majority of people here agree with each other on the broad stuff, we're all too busy getting infuriated with each other over the small stuff to notice though. People that come to mind as having a firm grasp of their disagreements are Kwark, Neb, IgnE and myself. I'm sure there are others but those in particular jump to my mind as having demonstrated a firm grasp on both what they are arguing and what their differences are among each other. You seem to be exploring your options, which is perfectly reasonable imo btw not belittling your position fwiw. xDaunt didn't let it slip much, but I'm pretty sure he knew too. A lot of the conflict (this has been pointed out by people other than myself) is centered around (what I'd argue are often intentional) distortions and/or miscommunications about what people are arguing. I've said (Velr, P6, and Neb have pointed this out to Serm and others as well) several times I don't subscribe to accelerationism, and if I did as Christian points out, I'd be voting for Trump Yet it doesn't stop someone like Serm from demanding I "just say you don't want people to vote for Biden and that you want Trump to win already". It's tiresome, but for the grace of bog go I | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On April 16 2020 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote: People that come to mind as having a firm grasp of their disagreements are Kwark, Neb, IgnE and myself. I'm sure there are others but those in particular jump to my mind as having demonstrated a firm grasp on both what they are arguing and what their differences are among each other. You seem to be exploring your options, which is perfectly reasonable imo btw not belittling your position fwiw. xDaunt didn't let it slip much, but I'm pretty sure he knew too. A lot of the conflict (this has been pointed out by people other than myself) is centered around (what I'd argue are often intentional) distortions and/or miscommunications about what people are arguing. I've said (Velr, P6, and Neb have pointed this out to Serm and others as well) several times I don't subscribe to accelerationism, and if I did as Christian points out, I'd be voting for Trump Yet it doesn't stop someone like Serm from demanding I "just say you don't want people to vote for Biden and that you want Trump to win already". It's tiresome, but for the grace of bog go I Feel bad for not being namechecked, will have to up my game. As with yourself I don’t subscribe to accelerationism, it’s far too unpredictable, Trump being a case in point. It’s a forest fire, it might scrub the land you want, it may rage unchecked. Equally I’m massively skeptical of incrementalism, concessions are given continuously to some mythical centre that doesn’t satisfy anyone, and it’s almost always rightward. Maybe a Sanders style platform is too left for current America, but what support it does have will be ignored to appeal to some middle ground in the election, and if Biden is elected to the Presidency non stop compromises with the GOP | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On April 16 2020 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote: People that come to mind as having a firm grasp of their disagreements are Kwark, Neb, IgnE and myself. I'm sure there are others but those in particular jump to my mind as having demonstrated a firm grasp on both what they are arguing and what their differences are among each other. You seem to be exploring your options, which is perfectly reasonable imo btw not belittling your position fwiw. xDaunt didn't let it slip much, but I'm pretty sure he knew too. A lot of the conflict (this has been pointed out by people other than myself) is centered around (what I'd argue are often intentional) distortions and/or miscommunications about what people are arguing. I've said (Velr, P6, and Neb have pointed this out to Serm and others as well) several times I don't subscribe to accelerationism, and if I did as Christian points out, I'd be voting for Trump Yet it doesn't stop someone like Serm from demanding I "just say you don't want people to vote for Biden and that you want Trump to win already". It's tiresome, but for the grace of bog go I Intentional distortion/miscommunication or an observation on action? You've been posting for multiple days now about how voting doesn't matter and how Biden is a rapist and racist. Danglars is the classic example of this as well. You can write whatever position you want for yourself, but what you post about and advocate for is in view for everyone to read and draw conclusions from. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On April 16 2020 11:19 GreenHorizons wrote: People that come to mind as having a firm grasp of their disagreements are Kwark, Neb, IgnE and myself. I'm sure there are others but those in particular jump to my mind as having demonstrated a firm grasp on both what they are arguing and what their differences are among each other. You seem to be exploring your options, which is perfectly reasonable imo btw not belittling your position fwiw. xDaunt didn't let it slip much, but I'm pretty sure he knew too. A lot of the conflict (this has been pointed out by people other than myself) is centered around (what I'd argue are often intentional) distortions and/or miscommunications about what people are arguing. I've said (Velr, P6, and Neb have pointed this out to Serm and others as well) several times I don't subscribe to accelerationism, and if I did as Christian points out, I'd be voting for Trump Yet it doesn't stop someone like Serm from demanding I "just say you don't want people to vote for Biden and that you want Trump to win already". It's tiresome, but for the grace of bog go I On April 16 2020 13:49 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Intentional distortion/miscommunication or an observation on action? You've been posting for multiple days now about how voting doesn't matter and how Biden is a rapist and racist. Danglars is the classic example of this as well. You can write whatever position you want for yourself, but what you post about and advocate for is in view for everyone to read and draw conclusions from. Sheesh, is it really so hard to believe people from the right wing are actually advocating (were advocating in this thread) for their policy goals and stating the reasons they wanted them? I feel like a lot of pointless invective is wasted by accusing the "other" of not actually believing what they say. It's seriously disappointing. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On April 16 2020 14:31 Danglars wrote: Sheesh, is it really so hard to believe people from the right wing are actually advocating (were advocating in this thread) for their policy goals and stating the reasons they wanted them? I feel like a lot of pointless invective is wasted by accusing the "other" of not actually believing what they say. It's seriously disappointing. I wouldn't say that you or GreenHorizons doesn't believe in what you post. I should have used xDaunt as the example as it makes more sense, but it is nice that you're posting in this thread again even if I doubt it will continue. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On April 16 2020 14:35 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: I wouldn't say that you or GreenHorizons doesn't believe in what you post. I should have used xDaunt as the example as it makes more sense, but it is nice that you're posting in this thread again even if I doubt it will continue. I don't think you would profit much had you substituted xDaunt into your construction. But I'm just remarking on a surprising double-mention with very little setup, and I must say, very humorous descriptions. This thread is much more useful with the the most frequent participants rather aligned in opinion on the GOP and Trump. Look at how many avenues have been explored to nuanced differences! I've personally gained far more being a frequent reader of what takes place here, than when I was a participant. Carry on. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On April 16 2020 08:10 Gorsameth wrote: By what reasoning do you think the Democrats are ignoring their core voters? How is this core voter block they are ignoring not able to vote through their own candidate? Could it be because they are in fact not a core voter block but hold a minority within the party? Remember the GOP didn't want Trump and tried hard to keep him from getting the nomination. Core voters defying the party and pushing through the candidate they want happened the last election. Sanders failing to do so twice in a row should perhaps be a signal that he doesn't represent the majority. If the majority want the minority's vote they need to do something to make the minority want to vote for them. Or they can ignore them, not get their vote, and probably lose. It's not complicated. The GOP didn't want Trump, but the GOP platform in general does a good job of appealing to the interests of its various component parts. They don't offer everything, they don't go far enough on certain points, but they offer something. Because they want those votes, and want to offer something to get those votes. The main thread of discussion concerning left-leaning people right now runs thus: "It doesn't matter that the Democrats offer you literally nothing, you should vote for them anyway because Trump is worse." That isn't how it works. Plenty of people on the right despise Trump but the party offers them something they want. For people on the left in the US the Democratic party doesn't offer them anything they want, actively lets them know that it doesn't, and Biden is a weak candidate with a dodgy resume of accusations. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11783 Posts
But if you are in any of the majority of states where your vote doesn't matter anyways, you can easily vote for a third party to make it clear that a) you are a voter who actually votes, and b) the democrats didn't do enough to earn your vote. If enough people do that, someone might notice that there is a large potential of voters available who actually go out to vote, but are not satisfied with the parties. (None of that changes the fact that the US system just sucks by forcing people to make this decision in the first place, but that is not something that you as an individual can actually influence, except by emigrating to a country with a better system.) | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9037 Posts
The number of people filing for unemployment climbed by another 5.2 million last week, as the toll of the nation's economic dive amid the pandemic continues to mount. That number is down from the revised 6.6 million in the week that ended April 4, the Labor Department said. But in the past four weeks, a total of 22 million have filed jobless claims — nearly wiping out all the job gains since the Great Recession. The dramatic reversal followed a decade of spectacular growth in jobs that brought the unemployment rate to near 50-year lows along with record low jobless rates for blacks and Hispanics. Now the job market is on its knees. Source | ||
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Gorgonoth
United States468 Posts
I do not think Biden will not win in November. He's the typical weak candidate democrats like to put against incumbent republicans historically and maybe an especially weak one. Biden is obviously struggling with advancing dementia and will be eaten alive in the debates by Trump. From my anecdotal perspective, more Americans are growing in contempt of the mainstream media and/or authorities like the WHO and rallying behind Trump as the leader who stood against them. Of course, there will always be a reliable contingent, many are here I believe, that view Trump as the great Anti-Christ who can and will do no good, but the general voter sees right through the pained figure of Biden, struggling for words, hoisted to victory and sheltered by the Democratic media; and would rather vote for the flawed Trump they know. I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
After the first year or so, the entire argument in favor of Trump has been the "economic miracle" that he's sustained throughout his time in office. Sure, most everything about the presidency is one unmitigated disaster, but look at how high the stock market is and how low the unemployment rate is! Of course, that was just piling on to the bubble that was blown after 2008 to make an apparent economic recovery, but between massive corporate tax cuts and having the Fed work to help build that bubble, it lasted quite a while. Now we're left with another massive financial crisis that will rear its head the moment this quarantine ends. Claims like "Biden is corrupt and belongs in a dementia ward" aren't going to stick as well as they did a year ago. When the sky is falling down and the man in charge is making it worse, all that matters to a lot of people is who can make it better. And at least right now, it doesn't sound like people think Trump is at all able to handle that. | ||
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45365 Posts
On April 16 2020 22:40 Gorgonoth wrote: I'm shocked that the sexual assault allegations haven't touched Biden. I'm dumbfounded that the asinine rallying cry "Believe all women" appears to apply selectively to conservative supreme court justices. It is almost like the victims were used as ammunition to hit the democrats and the media's political opponents and ignored the moment they turned against one of their own. People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23732 Posts
On April 17 2020 00:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: People can acknowledge all this and still recognize that, at the end of the day, it's either Biden or Trump. Voting for Biden over Trump doesn't mean that we don't believe the sexual assault allegations. Is there anything that could be bad enough about Biden that you wouldn't vote for him? Could Biden shoot a man on 5th ave and still get your vote? Or if Biden did shoot a man on 5th ave would you vote Trump? I understand Biden voters argument to be they would vote for Biden even if he shot a man on 5th ave (just like Trump said his voters would). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On April 17 2020 01:08 GreenHorizons wrote: Is there anything that could be bad enough about Biden that you wouldn't vote for him? Could Biden shoot a man on 5th ave and still get your vote? Or if Biden did shoot a man on 5th ave would you vote Trump? Depends why he shot the man? I’ll reluctantly take Biden over Trump every day of the week. Trump’s doing incalculable (literally and hyperbolically) damage to the culture and nature of political and media discourse. Another 4 years, no thanks. There’ll be a further salting of potential avenues where genuinely progressive politics could sprout. Some of this damage is already plain to see, another 4 years of poisoning the well and it’ll be so difficult to stick Pandora back in there. Far harder than merely reverting bad policy. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23732 Posts
On April 17 2020 01:48 Wombat_NI wrote: Depends why he shot the man? + Show Spoiler + I’ll reluctantly take Biden over Trump every day of the week. Trump’s doing incalculable (literally and hyperbolically) damage to the culture and nature of political and media discourse. Another 4 years, no thanks. There’ll be a further salting of potential avenues where genuinely progressive politics could sprout. Some of this damage is already plain to see, another 4 years of poisoning the well and it’ll be so difficult to stick Pandora back in there. Far harder than merely reverting bad policy. It doesn't though, does it? Who could Biden murder that would make them vote for Trump, no one right? | ||
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ChristianS
United States3304 Posts
On April 17 2020 01:54 GreenHorizons wrote: It doesn't though, does it? Who could Biden murder that would make them vote for Trump, no one right? I don’t consider casting my vote for someone to equal approval of their life choices or enthusiasm for their worldview or anything of the sort. It just means that I think electing them will make the world better compared to the alternatives. These kinds of hypotheticals are meant to elicit some shame or sense of complicity for letting this person “represent” me, but I reject the idea that I’m complicit just because I voted for him. Yes, he would “represent” me as president if elected, but that’s true whether I vote for him or not. With that said, regarding these specific hypotheticals: If Biden kills somebody I think he should be prosecuted, and the DNC will have to figure out how they choose a nominee if the primary’s biggest vote-getter becomes incapable of running. But if the election was tomorrow, I’d vote Biden with the expectation that if he won, he’d step down or be removed and someone else would take his place. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45365 Posts
On April 17 2020 01:08 GreenHorizons wrote: Is there anything that could be bad enough about Biden that you wouldn't vote for him? Could Biden shoot a man on 5th ave and still get your vote? Or if Biden did shoot a man on 5th ave would you vote Trump? I understand Biden voters argument to be they would vote for Biden even if he shot a man on 5th ave (just like Trump said his voters would). If I felt that Biden's policy positions were worse for our country/ worse for our world than Trump's positions, then I would prefer Trump over Biden. It's the reality of the unfortunate dichotomy that we're experiencing now. I can strongly detest both individuals, and can strongly disagree with a lot of their positions and past actions, but at the end of the day, I've got to pick whoever I think will be the greater good (or lesser of two evils) for our country. | ||
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