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On December 10 2011 05:13 Days wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. Ugh seriously? Yeah yeah, enough with " an eye for an eye makes everyone blind" bull shit. Let's see if you felt the same way after your very own father and mother we're the victims in this case, would you still be screaming out for peace to the ones who committed the crime?
Quite literally.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43029928/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
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On December 10 2011 05:34 OmiDeLta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:26 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 10 2011 05:13 OmiDeLta wrote:On December 10 2011 04:58 zalz wrote:On December 10 2011 04:55 OmiDeLta wrote:On December 10 2011 04:51 HoldenR wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. And I thought hipsters were pretentious. The only way you could genuinely not understand is by being a fucking psychopath that doesn't even know emotion; otherwise you're just acting like a stuck up, morally superior cunt. Fuck you for trying to gain moral e-cred on this subject, by the way. Though crudely delivered, I agree with your point. It's natural to feel anger and to wish that the offenders would feel pain. If you don't feel sickened by this, I believe you would have to be completely apathetic. Nobody should be trying to take the moral high ground here. There are people out there who have completely lost every shred of humanity...and these criminals are of that sort. Some people realise that the justice system is more important then the emotional whims at the sight of such injustice. Feeling emotions is different from being a slave to your emotions. I can feel angry about this story but i can control myself and understand that violent payback is not what is called for here. The difference as such isn't between one side feeling and another not. It's one side being dominated by their emotions and another remaining in control of themselves despite their emotions. Like I said before this is true. I feel that retribution would be justice but I understand that if we give in to that, society would crumble. This would be why people are talking so violently on here, because it is merely that. Talking. Letting out the completely justified rage we feel. At the same time, though, your system is based on retribution and punishment rather than rehabilitation. Sure it's a lot better to have a legal system do such retribution rather than say, lynchings, but still. Hm. It's true our justice system isn't the best but do you really think people like THIS can be rehabilitated? In cases like this I am all for the death penalty. What I meant by retribution was brutal retribution; making them feel the same pain. Probably should have specified that. Ahaha. My bad. Perhaps I give in to my emotional side a little bit too much, huh? I guess that's just personality. But of course we can't ACTUALLY go around beating criminals to death. As bloodthirstily satisfying as that would be, admittedly...HOWEVER. Must keep that side reigned in. Self-control is a good thing. Death, yes. Brutal death, no. (Am I somewhere on the middle ground here? For some reason I feel like I am.)
I've actually recently come to the conclusion that taking someone's life is pretty much never ever justified, with the only exception being that they are about to take yours or another person's life (making it a choice between one life or another, where one of them is in the wrong and the other isn't, ie. clear choice).
But things such as death penalties cannot ever be justified. I used to be a bit more leanient with this, having the stance that if it could be conclusively proven (not beyond reasonable doubt but all doubt) that someone was guilty of a crime henious enough then the death penalty would be suitable. This isn't actually possible which was my previous reason for being against the death penalty. As I said, though, I've come to realize that actually killing someone is such a huge deal that "justice" isn't motivation enough.
And to answer your question; Why wouldn't it be possible to rehabilitate these people? If not all, at least some of them? If they are found to be insane then just lock them up forever. If they're not, why not at least give it a try? Seems like a much better starting point than "fuck it, not worth trying". Especially if they're ever getting out, like the one with the 54 year sentence.
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On December 10 2011 05:25 Phisk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:13 Days wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. Ugh seriously? Yeah yeah, enough with "an eye for an eye makes everyone blind" bull shit. Let's see if you felt the same way after your very own father and mother we're the victims in this case, would you still be screaming out for peace to the ones who committed the crime? What kind of kinder garden argument is that? There is no room for bias in the justice system, if we treated every crime as if we were the victims, judging from a place of emotion rather than logic, society would fall apart. Befree's argument that we cant punish people for their "genetics" (as if there was a "criminal" gene...) or upbringing is obviously idiotic though, because then nobody would be responsible for their actions. There is such a thing as free will and every action that anyone has a ever made has a consequence and we are all responsible for what we do.Even the most horrible upbringing that somebody has been through doesn't give you a free pass to commit horrible actions.
Actually, there's a big philosophical debate about that subject.
Is is actually true that most pepole have free will? Or are most pepole simply slaves to their emotions and education.
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On December 10 2011 05:35 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:13 OmiDeLta wrote:On December 10 2011 04:58 zalz wrote:On December 10 2011 04:55 OmiDeLta wrote:On December 10 2011 04:51 HoldenR wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. And I thought hipsters were pretentious. The only way you could genuinely not understand is by being a fucking psychopath that doesn't even know emotion; otherwise you're just acting like a stuck up, morally superior cunt. Fuck you for trying to gain moral e-cred on this subject, by the way. Though crudely delivered, I agree with your point. It's natural to feel anger and to wish that the offenders would feel pain. If you don't feel sickened by this, I believe you would have to be completely apathetic. Nobody should be trying to take the moral high ground here. There are people out there who have completely lost every shred of humanity...and these criminals are of that sort. Some people realise that the justice system is more important then the emotional whims at the sight of such injustice. Feeling emotions is different from being a slave to your emotions. I can feel angry about this story but i can control myself and understand that violent payback is not what is called for here. The difference as such isn't between one side feeling and another not. It's one side being dominated by their emotions and another remaining in control of themselves despite their emotions. Like I said before this is true. I feel that retribution would be justice but I understand that if we give in to that, society would crumble. This would be why people are talking so violently on here, because it is merely that. Talking. Letting out the completely justified rage we feel. Society would not crumble because of the death penalty. I'm not sure if you meant to imply such but you certainly weren't careful not to. These people need to be put on trial, only so that they can be proven guilty, on the off-chance that such proof isn't possible and they should be presumed innocent like everyone else, and to insure that the executioner himself would not be committing the first crime of taking an innocent life. The concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' is essential to society. The concept of 'mercy before justice' is not. There is plenty to be gained from ending these people's lives, and perhaps more importantly plenty to lose in paying to keep them alive in a cell. They're not worth it.
Yes! That's exactly what I meant. I'm sorry for wording it poorly! I support the death penalty especially in cases like this; what I meant by retribution was brutal retribution, i.e. torture and the call to make these people feel the pain they put that poor couple through. That would be justice in my eyes but I realize that we can't do that.
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On December 10 2011 05:35 zobz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:13 OmiDeLta wrote:On December 10 2011 04:58 zalz wrote:On December 10 2011 04:55 OmiDeLta wrote:On December 10 2011 04:51 HoldenR wrote:On December 10 2011 04:42 Befree wrote:
What an awkwardly racist start to the thread in 2007. Certainly a lot of ignorance of news trends and basic logic.
Murder and rape are terrible things, but they happen a lot the world. If you're disturbed so deeply by this to want to kill the people, how exactly do you view all the terrible things that go on throughout the world every day? Arbitrarily picking out one particularly sensational story and making it some sort of exception isn't reasonable.
The idea of wanting to kill the accused, or these fantasies of causing them pain, I don't think are acceptable. I myself don't believe in retribution in general. I don't understand what sick drives cause people to crave the death of those who cause pain and I don't know what they imagine to be the benefit of it.
People are just products of their society/upbringing and their genes. Punishing people for the sake of retribution because of their genetics and childhood doesn't seem productive. We certainly want to discourage their appalling behavior and help them change their behavior, but just wanting to go out and kill them or torture them? For what purpose? To satisfy the irrational, ignorant, vindictive, violent drives of the average person? I oppose that. And I thought hipsters were pretentious. The only way you could genuinely not understand is by being a fucking psychopath that doesn't even know emotion; otherwise you're just acting like a stuck up, morally superior cunt. Fuck you for trying to gain moral e-cred on this subject, by the way. Though crudely delivered, I agree with your point. It's natural to feel anger and to wish that the offenders would feel pain. If you don't feel sickened by this, I believe you would have to be completely apathetic. Nobody should be trying to take the moral high ground here. There are people out there who have completely lost every shred of humanity...and these criminals are of that sort. Some people realise that the justice system is more important then the emotional whims at the sight of such injustice. Feeling emotions is different from being a slave to your emotions. I can feel angry about this story but i can control myself and understand that violent payback is not what is called for here. The difference as such isn't between one side feeling and another not. It's one side being dominated by their emotions and another remaining in control of themselves despite their emotions. Like I said before this is true. I feel that retribution would be justice but I understand that if we give in to that, society would crumble. This would be why people are talking so violently on here, because it is merely that. Talking. Letting out the completely justified rage we feel. Society would not crumble because of the death penalty. I'm not sure if you meant to imply such but you certainly weren't careful not to. These people need to be put on trial, only so that they can be proven guilty, on the off-chance that such proof isn't possible and they should be presumed innocent like everyone else, and to insure that the executioner himself would not be committing the first crime of taking an innocent life. The concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' is essential to society. The concept of 'mercy before justice' is not. There is plenty to be gained from ending these people's lives, and perhaps more importantly plenty to lose in paying to keep them alive in a cell. They're not worth it.
Actually, it costs more to give someone the death penalty then it does to put them in prison for life.
I think the mere fact that there have been proven cases of people being convicted and sentenced to death for crimes that they were innocent of is enough to stop the death penalty.
Disclaimer: What these people did is horrible, and I understand peoples gut reactions.
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If I knew this couple personally I would like to see them all executed. And then I would round up the whole family and friends and what not of them and execute them publicly. In my eyes they are guilty of the crime just as the ones who actually committed it.
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I'm out. As someone relatively close to this trial, some of these comments are making me rage more than the actual crime and it risks my TL account if I keep up with this horseshit. glhf
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Another example of where modern society is heading:
no principles, no religion. no moral values ...
money, pleasure, egoism and double standards to rule em all.
Disclaimer: Atheist. rationalist
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^as opposed to a century and a half ago when slavery was legal and we were murdering the woman and children of native americans?
On December 10 2011 05:33 lizzard_warish wrote:
The disturbing part about this story is that it wasnt really focused on at all by the news. I cant help but feel that it was racially motivated to ignore it. When a black guy gets punched by a white guy its all over the news replete with accusations of racism, even if it turns out that they both mutually disliked eachother for a long time and were provoking one another. Two whites are raped and tortured specifically because of race and we never hear about it. I dont think thats a coincidence.
This is very anecdotal and I would like and example. Have you ever watched the show cops? it seems like 75% of the people arrested on that show are black or mexican.
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What the hell was the reason for them doing this? Was there a connection between the murderers and the victims? Says it was pre-meditated, but no mention of the relationship between the two parties.
Edit: And if it's a random hate crime...just wow.
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On December 10 2011 05:44 Holy_AT wrote:
If I knew this couple personally I would like to see them all executed. And then I would round up the whole family and friends and what not of them and execute them publicly. In my eyes they are guilty of the crime just as the ones who actually committed it.
So you would violate the International Declaration of Human Rights and the Religious belief that many hold dear ,just to have a brief artificial sense of justice?Promoting killing as an easy resolution to a complex problem sounds cool doesn't it?
Besides you supporting the state taking away the lifes of citizens,you outright forgot that these people have families and friends,I'm pretty sure you woudln't want anyone you hold dear to yourself taken away by your country.
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On December 10 2011 05:44 Holy_AT wrote:
If I knew this couple personally I would like to see them all executed. And then I would round up the whole family and friends and what not of them and execute them publicly. In my eyes they are guilty of the crime just as the ones who actually committed it.
On December 10 2011 05:48 DueSs wrote:
I'm out. As someone relatively close to this trial, some of these comments are making me rage more than the actual crime and it risks my TL account if I keep up with this horseshit. glhf
Please if any of you two could shed some light on this, I would like to know what the relationship between the murderers and the victims were? Why exactly was this crime committed, please don't tell me it was just a random hate crime? Or else I might get sick in the stomach.
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On December 10 2011 05:48 Rammstorm wrote:
Another example of where modern society is heading:
no principles, no religion. no moral values ...
money, pleasure, egoism and double standards to rule em all.
Disclaimer: Atheist. rationalist
i know right because there are no such things as moral values and principles without religion. i'm sure you're an atheist haha. don't make me puke.
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On December 10 2011 05:35 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Stories like these make me support the death penalty.
We need artificial genetic selection, dammit!
...lol go texas!
Yeah we should start up a Eugenics program here in the US! ..... 
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So many good people in this world go without food, clean water, or shelter. Why do we waste so much time, money, and energy on demons like these?
Not a single grain of wheat should be chopped down for any of these demons. No energy should be wasted on pumping water for them. There is no chance of these demons ever contributing to society again. Throw them in a cell with no food or water and let nature take its course.
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On December 10 2011 05:53 besteady wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:35 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Stories like these make me support the death penalty.
We need artificial genetic selection, dammit!
...lol go texas! Yeah we should start up a Eugenics program here in the US! .....
Yes go Texas,Rick Perry was happy to execute that innocent fella and the other guy that had a mental illness wrongfully.Besides executing a human being costs 4x more than him being held forever in a prison.
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On December 10 2011 05:54 RenSC2 wrote:
So many good people in this world go without food, clean water, or shelter. Why do we waste so much time, money, and energy on demons like these?
Not a single grain of wheat should be chopped down for any of these demons. No energy should be wasted on pumping water for them. There is no chance of these demons ever contributing to society again. Throw them in a cell with no food or water and let nature take its course.
As savage as it may sound, i'm down for that.
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There are times when the Guillotine should be brought back to use. This is one of those times
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On December 10 2011 05:55 mrafaeldie12 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 05:53 besteady wrote:On December 10 2011 05:35 neoghaleon55 wrote:
Stories like these make me support the death penalty.
We need artificial genetic selection, dammit!
...lol go texas! Yeah we should start up a Eugenics program here in the US! ..... Yes go Texas,Rick Perry was happy to execute that innocent fella and the other guy that had a mental illness wrongfully.Besides executing a human being costs 4x more than him being held forever in a prison.
Lol, wut?
Care to elaborate?
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When I read stuff like that, the civilized part of me that understands the necessity and value of laws and court systems tends to get drowned out by a more primitive desire to see the perpetrators of crimes like these slowly tortured to death. How a person can do that to another person for no reason at all is something I'll just never understand. And even though at the end of the day I'd never actually advocate this sort of thing, I would be interested to see what kind of effect public, brutal torture and execution of the perpetrators and others who have done the same things would have in terms of discouraging it from being done by others.
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EPT
