EPTBecause its a concern with no basis in reality and as such deserves no sympathy.
Even if you believe that, it's a bit of a leap to attack people for your beliefs
Open Letter to Team Liquid on Overwatch - Page 2
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Even if you believe that, it's a bit of a leap to attack people for your beliefs | ||
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Baradrist
Germany96 Posts
I appreciate your concerns, but I don't share them at all since I see much more pros than cons to this. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On April 11 2016 14:25 Cyro wrote: @Nazgul any comment on the picking up of teams when 99% of people including competitors can't play Overwatch yet? I would love to, but you're just stating a fact. It appears you feel something is wrong with that, but don't explain what that is. I legitimately don't see the problem at the moment. Looking forward to hearing your concerns though, don't mind thinking about another perspective. For reference we picked up TLO and Jinro three months before official release, and I legitimately am confused why that would have been a bad thing. Just don't see it, sorry. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
Given that the players in the beta are either exceptionally lucky (the closed beta seems to be hundreds to a few thousand out of what could be a 7 figure playerbase) or breaking rules under the table (such as the bannable account sharing + buying which is rampant in WoW & overwatch) it seems wrong to me. I wasn't into sc2 pre-release so i'm not sure how the beta was handled. For the Legacy beta, TL and other organizations were given keys to use and hand out and for a long time before release everybody had the opportunity to preorder-buy into playing if they wanted to compete, so it was a completely different situation. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Valiver
Caldeum1977 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
most of the good players would already be signed In a month the playerbase is going to increase dramatically, 20x - 100x or more. That includes more esport-tier players than the everyone that's in overwatch right now | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 12 2016 03:48 Cyro wrote: In a month the playerbase is going to increase dramatically, 20x - 100x or more. That includes more esport-tier players than the everyone that's in overwatch right now Ok, why does TL care? They are signing a team now with people they can work with, as opposed to later when everyone has access. What are they supposed to do, wait until the game is out for 2 months so people cut their teeth and the cream can rise to the top? Or is it three months? What completely arbitrary date would you like to set before they can sign a team? | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
What are they supposed to do, wait until the game is out for 2 months so people cut their teeth and the cream can rise to the top? Or is it three months? It's 1 month for the game to go from a tiny random super closed-off playerbase to all esports players playing. Seems worth the wait to me if you're not going to sign any more players after the initial selection. Ok, why does TL care? Why would TL not care about who they're selecting? | ||
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:03 Cyro wrote: It's 1 month for the game to go from a tiny niche random playerbase to all esports players being able to play. Seems worth the wait to me if you're not going to sign any more players after the initial selection. Why would they not care, in particular? You're wording that as if the default is nobody caring The owner of TL has posted several times about their business decision and found none of these arguments compelling. Yet you continue to make them like they are new and original. There is no reason for them to wait to sign a team, since they can always update their roster. Your entire argument seems to be based on your personal metric for what is fair. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20344 Posts
There is no reason for them to wait to sign a team, since they can always update their roster. Messy to kick half a team, messier to kick a whole team | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 12 2016 04:14 Cyro wrote: bigger & better selection of players is more important than it being fair TL clearly feels differently, as they have stated above. So they do not agree with your assessment of the situation or opinion on when they should form a team. They can always let members go that are not working out and sign new talent if necessary, as with every single team sport on the planet. | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On April 12 2016 03:48 Cyro wrote: In a month the playerbase is going to increase dramatically, 20x - 100x or more. That includes more esport-tier players than the everyone that's in overwatch right now I'm fairly certain that those who are at the top right now will be there for some time after launch though. New stars from the wave of players will rise for sure but there will be a delay and many of these people will still stay relevant because they do also have track record that shows they have great potential in this title. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
I think that saying it doesn't matter if you don't get beta access is just wrong. You are up against players with months of practice already, and while you can still rise to the top, you'll still have to put in many more hours than anyone else to catch up. No one is born a progamer for any game. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22630 Posts
On April 13 2016 00:42 KeksX wrote: Wasn't SC2 post-launched mainly dominated by players who participated in beta? I think that saying it doesn't matter if you don't get beta access is just wrong. You are up against players with months of practice already, and while you can still rise to the top, you'll still have to put in many more hours than anyone else to catch up. No one is born a progamer for any game. It helped them yes and you can certainly argue that for example Fruitdealer won the first GSL because of this headstart but this disappears in a few months, which is also why TL signed a team now, because if they wait for the new "real" stars to rise they miss out on the first few months of tournaments and at the end of the day the pro-gaming side of TL is a business. | ||
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eScapegoat100
Canada71 Posts
On April 10 2016 12:51 SirPinky wrote: Gamers like to believe that they, either one person or many, can rise to the top of the ladder (or any ranking system) with hard work, skill and perseverance. In my opinion, making a team before the game is even released adds a certain futility to the hope gamers can someday be part of a well-respected team, like Team Liquid. It narrows the ability for future, better, gamers to work their way to the top echelon of gameplay. On April 12 2016 02:25 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would love to, but you're just stating a fact. It appears you feel something is wrong with that, but don't explain what that is. I legitimately don't see the problem at the moment. Looking forward to hearing your concerns though, don't mind thinking about another perspective. For reference we picked up TLO and Jinro three months before official release, and I legitimately am confused why that would have been a bad thing. Just don't see it, sorry. If I may. I think I can parse the concern / complaint of the OP and explain why he thinks this is a "bad thing." Going into the release of Overwatch there was an illusion among some gamers of an "even playing field". They believed that if they picked up the game on release and played a lot - and played well, that they could rise to the top of the field and become pro. While this belief isn't entirely crushed by the formation of a pro team prior to release it certainly puts to lie the "even playing field" myth. Comparisons to the release of Starcraft 2 (Jinro TLO etc...) are not very applicable to this situation. There were no myths of an equal starting point there. SC2 was an obvious successor to SC Broodwar and WC3 so it was equally obvious that progamers from those former titles would have a leg up on the common gamers. Gamers that saw SC2 release, knowing that they would never be good enough to turn pro, looked forwards to the next Blizzard title for their "big break." Another difference between Overwatch and SC2 is that an SC2 team can always pick up another player if they are outstanding on the ladder. Roster size is unlimited. Not so much in Overwatch. SC2 is all about individual success - whereas success in Overwatch will rely greatly upon team chemistry and cohesion. All of this means that in Overwatch - it appears less hopeful for solo queue stars to be added to a pro team. There is no reason that someone who has never played at a pro-level in another esport can't become pro in Overwatch through practice and determination - but having already named the Team Liquid roster puts into perspective the uphill battle that they face to achieve that success. This can be disheartening. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Just to be perfectly clear when the game is out officially the group that has pro potential, but does not have beta access, isn't going to be good from day one of public release at all. They're going to need time to catch up with the players who already had access. One month into full release they will be nowhere close to guys playing for half a year. Two months they will be nowhere close, either. So you are asking us to wait.. how long exactly? Sounds like we would have to wait one or two years after public release just to give the entire player base a chance. And then after that young kids will come along who will have started three years post release. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not saying we must get in this early, but these arguments that we shouldn't because not everyone has access are nonsensical. If there's a good team to pickup that we believe in then we should do so, beta or no beta. I also think this whole discussion does not give nearly the appropriate amount of credit to the players that get early access. Most players that have a reputation for hard work and skill in similar games will be able to get access. They have put years into developing those skillsets, similar to how that was the case for SC1/SC2. Your new talent from Overwatch that plays itself to the top throughout the years will be able to do the same if they ever decide to transition into something else. There's a reason why these ex-TF2 players are all monsters at OW, and I can tell you it is not because they had early access. | ||
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