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On June 26 2015 06:58 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 06:52 Endymion wrote:
i get that it's a free market.. i don't get the idea that your idea isn't "equally as good" as mine, that's what leads to censorship. That's an awfully black and white way to look at things...all ideas should be evaluated based on their individual merits. for example, Hitler's idea of how he wanted the world to be was NOT as good as everyone else's. Being able to say and do whatever the hell you want without people responding to it is what leads to anarchy. If the collective thinks you're an asshole for having a specific opinion, that makes you an asshole in the eyes of the collective, and as they say perception is reality. But our government would defend your right to have that opinion, as long as you aren't actively harming anyone by holding that opinion. If there actually is an organized movement to ban the Confederate flag from everywhere, I'd be right there with the racists claiming that it's a mistake, but for historical reasons.
thats a good way to put it. Ideas and symbols have to be evaluated based on the culture and its the society in general that decides whats allowed/tolerated etc. Obviously your free to have different opinions from the society in general but you have to realise that the society may set rules that don't agree with your what you think should be done. And no one is censoring anything companies are simply deciding they don't want to promote/ support the selling of confederate flags and what it represents, there not illegal to buy or own. do the people who have a problem with this also have a problem with these places not selling KKK uniforms or Nazi symbolism?
as i've said earlier in this threads books have historical importance as well as merely exposing someone to ideas that disagree with yours shouldn't be illegal plus their are many legitimate reasons to read the books.(also with lolita the author never intended it to be interpreted that way so it's not a great example.) so the books have a value outside of promoting the ideology. generally the entire purpose of a flag is to promote an ideology. plus no ones actually banning it at the moment
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On June 26 2015 07:03 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 06:58 ZasZ. wrote:On June 26 2015 06:52 Endymion wrote:
i get that it's a free market.. i don't get the idea that your idea isn't "equally as good" as mine, that's what leads to censorship. That's an awfully black and white way to look at things...all ideas should be evaluated based on their individual merits. for example, Hitler's idea of how he wanted the world to be was NOT as good as everyone else's. Being able to say and do whatever the hell you want without people responding to it is what leads to anarchy. If the collective thinks you're an asshole for having a specific opinion, that makes you an asshole in the eyes of the collective, and as they say perception is reality. But our government would defend your right to have that opinion, as long as you aren't actively harming anyone by holding that opinion. If there actually is an organized movement to ban the Confederate flag from everywhere, I'd be right there with the racists claiming that it's a mistake, but for historical reasons. i realize that it's a black and white way to look at it, but it's necessary to prevent censorship.. for example, i'm sure a ton of people hate Lolita and they hate the amazon sells a book basically glorifying pedophilia, but it's still not banned.. Mein Kampf is also still sold on amazon and recognized at least by google's systems.. the collective might disagree with these ideas, but that doesn't decrease the validity of an idea, no matter how stupid you personally might think it is..
Hm, can't find any Nazi flags though. Maybe there's something substantively different between banners and books?
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On June 26 2015 07:05 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:03 Endymion wrote:On June 26 2015 06:58 ZasZ. wrote:On June 26 2015 06:52 Endymion wrote:
i get that it's a free market.. i don't get the idea that your idea isn't "equally as good" as mine, that's what leads to censorship. That's an awfully black and white way to look at things...all ideas should be evaluated based on their individual merits. for example, Hitler's idea of how he wanted the world to be was NOT as good as everyone else's. Being able to say and do whatever the hell you want without people responding to it is what leads to anarchy. If the collective thinks you're an asshole for having a specific opinion, that makes you an asshole in the eyes of the collective, and as they say perception is reality. But our government would defend your right to have that opinion, as long as you aren't actively harming anyone by holding that opinion. If there actually is an organized movement to ban the Confederate flag from everywhere, I'd be right there with the racists claiming that it's a mistake, but for historical reasons. i realize that it's a black and white way to look at it, but it's necessary to prevent censorship.. for example, i'm sure a ton of people hate Lolita and they hate the amazon sells a book basically glorifying pedophilia, but it's still not banned.. Mein Kampf is also still sold on amazon and recognized at least by google's systems.. the collective might disagree with these ideas, but that doesn't decrease the validity of an idea, no matter how stupid you personally might think it is.. Hm, can't find any Nazi flags though. Maybe there's something substantively different between banners and books?
Crazy how that works. It's almost like they don't want to sell Nazi flags.
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On June 26 2015 05:34 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:29 Sonnington wrote:
The stars and bars is kinda like a swastika. So it's kinda bizarre that they were still flown at state capitols to begin with. Seriously.. Show nested quote +In any event, this is the land of the free and home of the brave mother fuckers. meh Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any call for prohibiting its sale. Companies are simply choosing to no longer sell it. They have that freedom.
Edit: Quoted wrong post.
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you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag
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On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag
the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag.
also there's not that many russiAn aristocracy people left. there's tons of African Americans who were who the south specifically discriminated against and 81 percent of them think its racist.
plus communism helped shaped the entirety of mid to late 20th century politics so you kind of need it to understand the entire rise and fall of communism. a flag gives basically 0 information.
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On June 26 2015 07:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:51 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:46 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 06:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is about the most appropriate time to pull out the old "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"... Forbidding symbols merely gives that symbol power, it has never proven to be a good idea, so why should it now? I agree completely that there is no reason for having it in front of governmental buildings, but forbidding it would be beyond stupid. Its not really forbidden any more that acid wash jeans. They just don't sell either at Walmart for different reasons. Read the post you are responding to before typing... I'm not even close to writing that it is currently forbidden. I'm saying that the current push towards forbidding it (AS FORBIDDING IT IN THE FUTURE) is moronic. There's a push to forbid it? Yes. Apparently it's bigger in Denmark than it is here. My bet is that it's ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about and perceive the removal from public property to be a ban. I wasn't aware that California was Danish, but I guess I learned something today.
Sound's like you're talking about something specific. How about you clue us in? No one is familiar with any push to ban the flag except you at this point.
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On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag
Believe it or not, all things are not created equal, either from a sociological standpoint or from the standpoint of a retailer. If you want to continue this nonsense I'm sure Amazon sells some barrels you can shout into.
And I'm not going to continue this for every idiotic example you bring up, but the Confederate battle standard has been used a symbol of oppression far more recently than the Communist Manifesto...led to ideas...that contributed to the overthrow of the Tsars. Is complete historical and sociological illiteracy fun for you?
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On June 26 2015 07:13 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag
that's subjective though, i'm an economic philistine and i don't care about the resolution of the labor question, tbh i just find it socially offensive because i saw a banker reading it on the subway, and then when he was at work he shorted some stocks that i held and caused my 401k to crash. now, i associate both the communist manifesto and das kapital with wallstreet fat cats, you could almost say it's an oppressive icon to me representing rampant capitalism. i dont know or care what it "actually" stands for to you, but that's how i see it.
On June 26 2015 07:17 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag Believe it or not, all things are not created equal, either from a sociological standpoint or from the standpoint of a retailer. If you want to continue this nonsense I'm sure Amazon sells some barrels you can shout into. And I'm not going to continue this for every idiotic example you bring up, but the Confederate battle standard has been used a symbol of oppression far more recently than the Communist Manifesto...led to ideas...that contributed to the overthrow of the Tsars. Is complete historical and sociological illiteracy fun for you?
oh it's tons of fun!
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On June 26 2015 07:18 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:13 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag that's subjective though, i'm an economic philistine and i don't care about the resolution of the labor question, tbh i just find it socially offensive because i saw a banker reading it on the subway, and then when he was at work he shorted some stocks that i held and caused my 401k to crash. now, i associate both the communist manifesto and das kapital with wallstreet fat cats, you could almost say it's an oppressive icon to me representing rampant capitalism. i dont know or care what it "actually" stands for to you, but that's how i see it.
This isn't how sociological significance works. It's SUPER cute when people try to mock what they don't understand though. Just cheek-pinching adorable.
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On June 26 2015 07:20 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:18 Endymion wrote:On June 26 2015 07:13 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag that's subjective though, i'm an economic philistine and i don't care about the resolution of the labor question, tbh i just find it socially offensive because i saw a banker reading it on the subway, and then when he was at work he shorted some stocks that i held and caused my 401k to crash. now, i associate both the communist manifesto and das kapital with wallstreet fat cats, you could almost say it's an oppressive icon to me representing rampant capitalism. i dont know or care what it "actually" stands for to you, but that's how i see it. This isn't how sociological significance works. It's SUPER cute when people try to mock what they don't understand though. Just cheek-pinching adorable.
i just missed my time with occupy wallstreet  i was still on volume 1
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On June 26 2015 07:18 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:13 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag that's subjective though, i'm an economic philistine and i don't care about the resolution of the labor question, tbh i just find it socially offensive because i saw a banker reading it on the subway, and then when he was at work he shorted some stocks that i held and caused my 401k to crash. now, i associate both the communist manifesto and das kapital with wallstreet fat cats, you could almost say it's an oppressive icon to me representing rampant capitalism. i dont know or care what it "actually" stands for to you, but that's how i see it.
um no. Regardless of whether you agree with what it says, It's historically important and considered that way by pretty much the entire philosophy and historical communities. you personally do not get to decide whats offensive, the society in large does. You by yourself seeing it as that is irrelevent in the large scheme of things. what matters is how many people particularly people who have been affected by it feel. also the fact that you think communist manifesto=wall street shows that you clearly misread the book and most people would agree that the fault lies in you and not the book.
plus from a utilitarian perspective there's the idea that the benefit of peopel reading it outways how much it offends you (which would be pretty easy to argue if your the only person who finds it offensive)
if your arguing from an rule based moral argument you seem to be saying that "I find it offensive." therefore ban it. if we agreed with that then we'd have to ban everything that any individual found offensive and that would probably lead to everything being banned and I think if you were told you couldn't buy something because 1 person somewhere is offended by it that you'd think that's incredibly stupid.. unless your going to argue that your the only person who gets to decide what's offensive which I don't think you can convince me off.
now if you can give me a solid argument in favor of banning the communist manifesto I'll consider it but I haven't seen that yet.
furthermore ultimately the only accurate measure of whats offensive(at least in the general sense of the term not in the personal sense) is how people feel about it as a whole community and in their subset communities. one person claiming something is offensive accomplishes nothign.
I should note that the above is all my personal opinion and if I made anymistakes or wasn't clear please point them out to me so I can consider them.
also here's something you might be interested in readin (I haven't actually read it yet so not sure what it says)) http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/#OffPriFreSpe
also as I said 81 percent of African americans find the flag offensive so its not just a few loud people
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On June 26 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:51 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:46 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 06:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is about the most appropriate time to pull out the old "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"... Forbidding symbols merely gives that symbol power, it has never proven to be a good idea, so why should it now? I agree completely that there is no reason for having it in front of governmental buildings, but forbidding it would be beyond stupid. Its not really forbidden any more that acid wash jeans. They just don't sell either at Walmart for different reasons. Read the post you are responding to before typing... I'm not even close to writing that it is currently forbidden. I'm saying that the current push towards forbidding it (AS FORBIDDING IT IN THE FUTURE) is moronic. There's a push to forbid it? Yes. Apparently it's bigger in Denmark than it is here. My bet is that it's ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about and perceive the removal from public property to be a ban. I wasn't aware that California was Danish, but I guess I learned something today. Sound's like you're talking about something specific. How about you clue us in? No one is familiar with any push to ban the flag except you at this point.
Go to Twitter, search: #bantheflag #burntheflag #confederateflag
You'll find some people arguing against a ban, but plenty more arguing that it should be banned altogether (and not just taken down no). My point was merely that it is stupid to ban symbols (and actually I would consider the retail-retraction of everything confederate equally stupid) as it is an empowerment of the flag. The actual white-supremacists are going to have a field-day utilizing this.
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On June 26 2015 07:29 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 07:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:51 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:46 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 06:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is about the most appropriate time to pull out the old "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"... Forbidding symbols merely gives that symbol power, it has never proven to be a good idea, so why should it now? I agree completely that there is no reason for having it in front of governmental buildings, but forbidding it would be beyond stupid. Its not really forbidden any more that acid wash jeans. They just don't sell either at Walmart for different reasons. Read the post you are responding to before typing... I'm not even close to writing that it is currently forbidden. I'm saying that the current push towards forbidding it (AS FORBIDDING IT IN THE FUTURE) is moronic. There's a push to forbid it? Yes. Apparently it's bigger in Denmark than it is here. My bet is that it's ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about and perceive the removal from public property to be a ban. I wasn't aware that California was Danish, but I guess I learned something today. Sound's like you're talking about something specific. How about you clue us in? No one is familiar with any push to ban the flag except you at this point. Go to Twitter, search: #bantheflag #burntheflag #confederateflag You'll find some people arguing against a ban, but plenty more arguing that it should be banned altogether (and not just taken down no). My point was merely that it is stupid to ban symbols (and actually I would consider the retail-retraction of everything confederate equally stupid) as it is an empowerment of the flag. The actual white-supremacists are going to have a field-day utilizing this.
you can get anything trending on twitter. If you're talking about explicitly banning the flag obviously that would probably be unconstitutional (although I suppose you could always pass an amendment but good luck with that.)
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On June 26 2015 07:24 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:18 Endymion wrote:On June 26 2015 07:13 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag that's subjective though, i'm an economic philistine and i don't care about the resolution of the labor question, tbh i just find it socially offensive because i saw a banker reading it on the subway, and then when he was at work he shorted some stocks that i held and caused my 401k to crash. now, i associate both the communist manifesto and das kapital with wallstreet fat cats, you could almost say it's an oppressive icon to me representing rampant capitalism. i dont know or care what it "actually" stands for to you, but that's how i see it. um no. Regardless of whether you agree with what it says, It's historically important and considered that way by pretty much the entire philosophy and historical communities. you personally do not get to decide whats offensive, the society in large does. You by yourself seeing it as that is irrelevent in the large scheme of things. what matters is how many people particularly people who have been affected by it feel. also the fact that you think communist manifesto=wall street shows that you clearly misread the book and most people would agree that the fault lies in you and not the book. plus from a utilitarian perspective there's the idea that the benefit of peopel reading it outways your offensiveness. if your arguing from an rule based moral argument you seem to be saying that "I find it offensive." therefore ban it. if we agreed with that then we'd have to ban everything that any individual found offensive and that would probably lead to everything being banned. unless your going to argue that your the only person who gets to decide what's offensive which I don't think you can convince me off the only accurate measure of whats offensive is how people feel about it as a whole community and in their subset communities. one person claiming something is offensive accomplishes nothign. also as I said 81 percent of African americans find the flag offensive so its not just a few loud people
to me, it doesn't matter if 100% of the rest of the world finds something offensive: an idea is an idea, a flag in an icon of an idea. to ban a flag is to censor someone's expression of themselves. Societal influence, on a personal level, should be absolutely meaningless in determining how you think. Critical thinking, reasoning, and judging your ideas vs the ideas of others is what brings about sound states of mind, both evil and good. Personally, I see people everyday that hate me and my company and my skin color and my weight and my ideas. You need to learn from people, not destroy them.. everyone is different, everyone can teach you something.. same thing with ideas, it's never ok "just because it's a lesser idea," that's being a true philistine of the world...
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On June 26 2015 06:36 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 04:09 ZasZ. wrote:
I cannot think of any country in the world that proudly displays symbols associated with a rebellious faction 150 years after that faction was put down.
Scotland.
Basque Country
Catalonia
Corsica
Flanders
Quebec
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Right now I dont care about the supposed squandering of the widely made fetichization called "freedom of speech"(as if I'd ever care about the right to oppress lol) or how everything that tries to protect the people who get systematically fucked by society's hierarchy of values is called PC(an inane and inacurrate figure), what I do care about is how when the Confederate Flag sybomlises all racism while being taken down it looks like racism was taken down. Racism is still alive and kicking with or without the uglyass flag.
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On June 26 2015 07:29 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 07:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:51 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:46 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 06:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is about the most appropriate time to pull out the old "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"... Forbidding symbols merely gives that symbol power, it has never proven to be a good idea, so why should it now? I agree completely that there is no reason for having it in front of governmental buildings, but forbidding it would be beyond stupid. Its not really forbidden any more that acid wash jeans. They just don't sell either at Walmart for different reasons. Read the post you are responding to before typing... I'm not even close to writing that it is currently forbidden. I'm saying that the current push towards forbidding it (AS FORBIDDING IT IN THE FUTURE) is moronic. There's a push to forbid it? Yes. Apparently it's bigger in Denmark than it is here. My bet is that it's ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about and perceive the removal from public property to be a ban. I wasn't aware that California was Danish, but I guess I learned something today. Sound's like you're talking about something specific. How about you clue us in? No one is familiar with any push to ban the flag except you at this point. Go to Twitter, search: #bantheflag #burntheflag #confederateflag You'll find some people arguing against a ban, but plenty more arguing that it should be banned altogether. My point was merely that it is stupid to ban symbols (and actually I would consider the retail-retraction of everything confederate equally stupid) as it is an empowerment of the flag. The actual white-supremacists are going to have a field-day utilizing this.
Okay... So that's what you're talking about? Besides the fact there are barely any tweets, there are even less that are actually saying to ban the flag. There's probably close to as many sarcastic posts about banning other flags (like the Rainbow flag) than there are people calling to ban the Confederate flag.
I thought you were being silly and that just confirmed it. Never ceases to amaze me when smart people say such dumb things.
Hopefully ALL the southern racists make a big deal about not wanting to remove the flag and other celebrations of slavery and/or segregation, that way it's a lot easier to see them in places like government.
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On June 26 2015 07:36 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:24 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 07:18 Endymion wrote:On June 26 2015 07:13 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 07:10 Endymion wrote:
you can also still find the communist manifesto for sale on amazon, i'm sure the russian aristocracy of the early 20th century would be sad given that it caused crimes against them, kinda like an icon of hate. it's also more recent than the confederate flag the communist manifesto is important both in political theory and philosophy. Regardless of what it led to its an important piece of literature. You can't really compare it to a flag that's subjective though, i'm an economic philistine and i don't care about the resolution of the labor question, tbh i just find it socially offensive because i saw a banker reading it on the subway, and then when he was at work he shorted some stocks that i held and caused my 401k to crash. now, i associate both the communist manifesto and das kapital with wallstreet fat cats, you could almost say it's an oppressive icon to me representing rampant capitalism. i dont know or care what it "actually" stands for to you, but that's how i see it. um no. Regardless of whether you agree with what it says, It's historically important and considered that way by pretty much the entire philosophy and historical communities. you personally do not get to decide whats offensive, the society in large does. You by yourself seeing it as that is irrelevent in the large scheme of things. what matters is how many people particularly people who have been affected by it feel. also the fact that you think communist manifesto=wall street shows that you clearly misread the book and most people would agree that the fault lies in you and not the book. plus from a utilitarian perspective there's the idea that the benefit of peopel reading it outways your offensiveness. if your arguing from an rule based moral argument you seem to be saying that "I find it offensive." therefore ban it. if we agreed with that then we'd have to ban everything that any individual found offensive and that would probably lead to everything being banned. unless your going to argue that your the only person who gets to decide what's offensive which I don't think you can convince me off the only accurate measure of whats offensive is how people feel about it as a whole community and in their subset communities. one person claiming something is offensive accomplishes nothign. also as I said 81 percent of African americans find the flag offensive so its not just a few loud people to me, it doesn't matter if 100% of the rest of the world finds something offensive: an idea is an idea, a flag in an icon of an idea. to ban a flag is to censor someone's expression of themselves. Societal influence, on a personal level, should be absolutely meaningless in determining how you think. Critical thinking, reasoning, and judging your ideas vs the ideas of others is what brings about sound states of mind, both evil and good. Personally, I see people everyday that hate me and my company and my skin color and my weight and my ideas. You need to learn from people, not destroy them.. everyone is different, everyone can teach you something.. same thing with ideas, it's never ok "just because it's a lesser idea," that's being a true philistine of the world...
I never said anything about ideas. You should be able to think whatever you want. I was just mainly counteracting his argument about the communist manifesto. i didn't specifically talk about banning the flag and I think that banning private use is wrong but in regards to whats seen in public most governments agree that there is some right to banning particular things how far that right goes is obviously some matter of debate.
personally I agree with Feinberg's offense principle to a certain extant and you of course are allowed to disagree with that.
a quote form the stanphord encyclopedia of philosophy
" The motivations of the speakers in the Skokie example seemed to be to incite fear and hatred and to directly insult the members of the community through the use of Nazi symbols. Nor, according to Feinberg, was there any political content to the speech. The distinction between violent pornography and this specific example of hate speech is that a particular group of people were targeted and the message of hate was paraded in such a way that it could not be easily avoided. It is for these reasons that Feinberg suggests hate speech can be limited by the offemse principle."
although thats based on hate speech but hate speech is nothing but the expression of an idea, like your flag example.
do you think anti nudity laws are illegal because they prevent you from expressing an idea? because if you don't then I don't see how you can deny that the government has rights to censure whats allowed in public.
so to summarise my beliefs. You have a right to whatever opinion you want. the government has a right to set limits on expression of opinions in public areas to an extent (expecially when it can be interpreted as directly supporting the cause.) the best guidelines for those rules is based around the general public consensus.
also where kind of going off topic since companies have a right to tell other companies they won't support a certain product.
also I think it would create problems if the government were to ban the flag (at least without a constitutional amendment) I have no problems with companies banning it however.
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On June 26 2015 07:29 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 07:13 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 07:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:56 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:51 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 26 2015 06:46 Ghostcom wrote:On June 26 2015 06:04 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 06:02 Ghostcom wrote:
I think it is about the most appropriate time to pull out the old "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"... Forbidding symbols merely gives that symbol power, it has never proven to be a good idea, so why should it now? I agree completely that there is no reason for having it in front of governmental buildings, but forbidding it would be beyond stupid. Its not really forbidden any more that acid wash jeans. They just don't sell either at Walmart for different reasons. Read the post you are responding to before typing... I'm not even close to writing that it is currently forbidden. I'm saying that the current push towards forbidding it (AS FORBIDDING IT IN THE FUTURE) is moronic. There's a push to forbid it? Yes. Apparently it's bigger in Denmark than it is here. My bet is that it's ignorant people who don't know what they are talking about and perceive the removal from public property to be a ban. I wasn't aware that California was Danish, but I guess I learned something today. Sound's like you're talking about something specific. How about you clue us in? No one is familiar with any push to ban the flag except you at this point. Go to Twitter, search: #bantheflag #burntheflag #confederateflag You'll find some people arguing against a ban, but plenty more arguing that it should be banned altogether (and not just taken down no). My point was merely that it is stupid to ban symbols (and actually I would consider the retail-retraction of everything confederate equally stupid) as it is an empowerment of the flag. The actual white-supremacists are going to have a field-day utilizing this.
So bringing up California was just you being stupid? OK. Like I said before, a movement to ban it beyond government grounds is insignificant and irrelevant to the conversation. Also unconstitutional.
The flag isn't a mythical being. It being removed from government grounds and from major retailers at their discretion doesn't make it more powerful. Did electing Obama cause racist wingnuts to lose their minds in this country? Yes. Are they more powerful than they were when he took office? No.
Your arguments are specious and ill-informed. There's nothing going on now with this flag than has not been going on in other things for quite some time. Wingnuts and the anti-SJW brigade choosing this hill to die on does nothing but show just how ignorant of real issues and current events they are. WalMart, Amazon, Apple, et al, did not suddenly decide today that they have/don't have a social conscience. They don't. This is a business decision, one they have the right to exercise and have exercised countless times.
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EPT
