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Confederate Flag Removed from stores - Page 20

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[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
June 30 2015 23:35 GMT
#381
On July 01 2015 08:32 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
I still don't understand what your point is. Why can't we have both?

You can. But not from WalMart because they decided to stop selling them.

So... what is your point?
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 23:36:25
June 30 2015 23:36 GMT
#382
Everyone remembers the outpouring of conservative outrage when radio stations banned the Dixie Chicks right?

On July 01 2015 08:35 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 08:32 FHDH wrote:
I still don't understand what your point is. Why can't we have both?

You can. But not from WalMart because they decided to stop selling them.

So... what is your point?

What is yours? I think we're overdue for it.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
June 30 2015 23:39 GMT
#383
On July 01 2015 08:27 Plansix wrote:
As I said before, the same goes for Disney movies every time they are going into the vault.

Also, what is the problem? Stores don't carry a product any more and people act like their rights are being infringed upon. I can't buy new SNESs anymore without going the shady bootleg route.

Didn't know about the vault until now. Market always finds a way.

Like I said, Walmart can go and ban anything they want. Just like I'm not obligated to sell anything out of my own house. People just have a right to complain about it and petition them in some way. Or get their flag from somewhere else.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
June 30 2015 23:42 GMT
#384
On July 01 2015 08:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 08:27 Plansix wrote:
As I said before, the same goes for Disney movies every time they are going into the vault.

Also, what is the problem? Stores don't carry a product any more and people act like their rights are being infringed upon. I can't buy new SNESs anymore without going the shady bootleg route.

Didn't know about the vault until now. Market always finds a way.

Like I said, Walmart can go and ban anything they want. Just like I'm not obligated to sell anything out of my own house. People just have a right to complain about it and petition them in some way. Or get their flag from somewhere else.

Well no one is contesting that so I guess we went in circles for nothing.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
June 30 2015 23:42 GMT
#385
On July 01 2015 08:36 FHDH wrote:
Everyone remembers the outpouring of conservative outrage when radio stations banned the Dixie Chicks right?

Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 08:35 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On July 01 2015 08:32 FHDH wrote:
I still don't understand what your point is. Why can't we have both?

You can. But not from WalMart because they decided to stop selling them.

So... what is your point?

What is yours? I think we're overdue for it.

That the ban on Confederate flags by Apple, Walmart, Amazon, etc. is stupid considering all the other stuff they continue to sell, like Nazi and Soviet paraphernalia. Obviously they disagree with me. And they have the right to do so.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24385 Posts
June 30 2015 23:43 GMT
#386
On July 01 2015 08:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 08:27 Plansix wrote:
As I said before, the same goes for Disney movies every time they are going into the vault.

Also, what is the problem? Stores don't carry a product any more and people act like their rights are being infringed upon. I can't buy new SNESs anymore without going the shady bootleg route.

Didn't know about the vault until now. Market always finds a way.

Like I said, Walmart can go and ban anything they want. Just like I'm not obligated to sell anything out of my own house. People just have a right to complain about it and petition them in some way. Or get their flag from somewhere else.


So you didn't have one....
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 23:53:01
June 30 2015 23:51 GMT
#387
On July 01 2015 08:43 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 08:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On July 01 2015 08:27 Plansix wrote:
As I said before, the same goes for Disney movies every time they are going into the vault.

Also, what is the problem? Stores don't carry a product any more and people act like their rights are being infringed upon. I can't buy new SNESs anymore without going the shady bootleg route.

Didn't know about the vault until now. Market always finds a way.

Like I said, Walmart can go and ban anything they want. Just like I'm not obligated to sell anything out of my own house. People just have a right to complain about it and petition them in some way. Or get their flag from somewhere else.


So you didn't have one....

I'm touchy on Walmart because oftentimes they and other big stores like Target become the only big stores in the area where I can get certain products since they can undercut prices but also limit diversity. Now that the f.y.e. in my area closed down, I have to drive 25-30 miles to the nearest brick-and-mortar store that sells the albums I want to buy (Amazon has them about 70% of the time, but that percentage drops with smaller bands I want to support but can't find elsewhere or new releases), which is a pretty big stretch considering I live right between New York and Philadelphia in what Wikipedia tells me is the most urbanized region in the US. Couldn't imagine what it would be like somewhere in the Great Plains.

Now obviously there aren't enough of me to make Walmart sell more power metal (yet. I have plans for that particular endeavor) but until then I can gnash my teeth and spend my money at the stores that do have what I want.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-30 23:56:51
June 30 2015 23:55 GMT
#388
Unfortunately that's just the reality of brick-and-mortar retail. I've spent my years in retail deserts and I understand the frustration, but it's no basis for a retailer to stock something they find controversial enough to otherwise not be worth the bad PR (WalMart has no social conscience as demonstrated in countless ways).

As far as blowback from southerners goes, I stand by my claim that if they truly understood their own history and the history of that flag, the only ones complaining that they'd have to order a flag online or drive a great distance (and let's be honest: it's a FLAG, and normal people do not order FLAGS on any kind of a regular basis) are people who actually don't give a shit about the African Americans to whom they owe the only parts of their culture anyone else cares about.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
July 01 2015 00:00 GMT
#389
On July 01 2015 01:23 overt wrote:
I think it's important to note that the civil war was pretty much just fought over money. The north was pissed because the south was getting rich off slave labor and they were buying from the Europeans instead of the north which hurt the north's industrialization and manufacturing. Only reason it's important to note is because I think a lot of people in America have this colored view of history that the union was fighting against the evil institution of slavery when in reality they had their own selfish goals in mind (just like the south did) and very few people actually gave a shit that African Americans were being enslaved (except for, y'know, actual abolitionists).

With that said I don't think it's crazy that minorities (especially black people) are offended by the flag and I don't think it's crazy that businesses feel like it makes more business sense to remove the Confederate flag from their stores. I also think it's stupid that a southern state would display a Confederate flag for so long. I'm not really arguing that retailers or states shouldn't have the right to display a Confederate flag because I don't think that's even up for debate. But if I was the governor of South Carolina or a CEO at a major retailer I'd sure as hell remove the flag because it's in the best business interest of my state/company. At the end of the day it's all about money anyway just like the actual civil war.


Or you could read what southern governors had to say when their states seceded:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.


Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?


The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.


The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.


Or the Vice President of the CSA:

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution — African slavery as it exists amongst us — the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization" and further that "Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea ["equality of the races"]; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.


Sources:

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 00:23:53
July 01 2015 00:19 GMT
#390
On July 01 2015 08:55 FHDH wrote:
Unfortunately that's just the reality of brick-and-mortar retail. I've spent my years in retail deserts and I understand the frustration, but it's no basis for a retailer to stock something they find controversial enough to otherwise not be worth the bad PR (WalMart has no social conscience as demonstrated in countless ways).

As far as blowback from southerners goes, I stand by my claim that if they truly understood their own history and the history of that flag, the only ones complaining that they'd have to order a flag online or drive a great distance (and let's be honest: it's a FLAG, and normal people do not order FLAGS on any kind of a regular basis) are people who actually don't give a shit about the African Americans to whom they owe the only parts of their culture anyone else cares about.

Moonshine was all white, from Irish immigrants iirc. It gave us Jack Daniels.

As far as PR goes, it depends. Protein World made crazy profits (about 1 million GBP in four days) after telling a member of the HAES crowd, who was criticizing their ads, to fuck off. Personally I'm not a fan of HAES myself, bought a round of supplements from them, paid about double because of the import fee, and then went back to buying it from cheap old Amazon.

Now, that debate was an entirely different beast, since Walmart is already established, approval of the "southern pride" mentality is at an all-time low with the shootings, etc. but I feel like a moderately-sized company, maybe even one of those three on the Google search selling rebel flags and running out of them, could make huge profits by doing the same kind of "accidental" PR stunt.

And it's not a regular basis, but I bought three flags this year. An American flag, a Russian flag (my birthplace), and another American flag after my college confiscated my first one over spring break, calling it a fire hazard. Maybe if I move to a house someday, I'll get a bigger American flag to put on my porch or something. Not exactly common, but an equivalent product in my mind is those sticker families that people put on the rear window of their cars. It's not a huge or necessary good, but it still sells in big numbers.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
July 01 2015 00:37 GMT
#391
On July 01 2015 08:36 FHDH wrote:
Everyone remembers the outpouring of conservative outrage when radio stations banned the Dixie Chicks right?

Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 08:35 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On July 01 2015 08:32 FHDH wrote:
I still don't understand what your point is. Why can't we have both?

You can. But not from WalMart because they decided to stop selling them.

So... what is your point?

What is yours? I think we're overdue for it.

If they banned the dixie chicks they probably did us a favor
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
July 01 2015 01:57 GMT
#392
The point is is that its hypocritical. They ban the selling of the symbol of slavery and yet sell goods made from slavery. Instead of getting anything actually positive done out of all this anger people are being satisfied and justified in doing what amounts to absolutely nothing.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
July 01 2015 01:58 GMT
#393
On July 01 2015 10:57 Sermokala wrote:
The point is is that its hypocritical. They ban the selling of the symbol of slavery and yet sell goods made from slavery. Instead of getting anything actually positive done out of all this anger people are being satisfied and justified in doing what amounts to absolutely nothing.

So don't shop there. Like I said, they have no social conscience. People who are outraged by this are just as hypocritical.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 01 2015 02:02 GMT
#394
On July 01 2015 10:58 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 10:57 Sermokala wrote:
The point is is that its hypocritical. They ban the selling of the symbol of slavery and yet sell goods made from slavery. Instead of getting anything actually positive done out of all this anger people are being satisfied and justified in doing what amounts to absolutely nothing.

So don't shop there. Like I said, they have no social conscience. People who are outraged by this are just as hypocritical.

But whining about it on the internet and the not changing what you do in any way is so much easier.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
July 01 2015 02:03 GMT
#395
On July 01 2015 10:58 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 10:57 Sermokala wrote:
The point is is that its hypocritical. They ban the selling of the symbol of slavery and yet sell goods made from slavery. Instead of getting anything actually positive done out of all this anger people are being satisfied and justified in doing what amounts to absolutely nothing.

So don't shop there. Like I said, they have no social conscience. People who are outraged by this are just as hypocritical.

The problem is is that people are actually praising these companies for doing this purely symbolic gesture without doing anything but helping modern slavery continue.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
July 01 2015 02:46 GMT
#396
On July 01 2015 11:03 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 10:58 FHDH wrote:
On July 01 2015 10:57 Sermokala wrote:
The point is is that its hypocritical. They ban the selling of the symbol of slavery and yet sell goods made from slavery. Instead of getting anything actually positive done out of all this anger people are being satisfied and justified in doing what amounts to absolutely nothing.

So don't shop there. Like I said, they have no social conscience. People who are outraged by this are just as hypocritical.

The problem is is that people are actually praising these companies for doing this purely symbolic gesture without doing anything but helping modern slavery continue.

Social norms have meanings. Change isn't all-or-nothing. You think the massive amounts of black southerners don't appreciate not having the CBS shoved in their faces every time they go to a WalMart?

Is WalMart worthy of praise? Did that even enter the discussion at any point prior to this? Obviously it's not "the" problem or we'd have heard fifteen pages ago how it's bad people are praising them. Instead those of us on the right side of history keep saying that they are fucked, greedy, soulless corporations with no social conscience. I don't think they ever should have been stocking that fucking banner. I think it's good they no longer are. But I'm not praising them. Even though it doesn't mean nothing. Symbols have meanings.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-01 14:45:20
July 01 2015 14:43 GMT
#397
From reading around it looks like the "Confederate flag" is not really the confederate flag obviously, but it was largely brought back in popular culture in the South (I'm sure somebody brought this up) during the 1940's and in the following decades specifically to oppose desegregation. The flag is essentially a symbol of the confederation that was used to protest against desegregation, to protest against mixing black and whites. That's not that long ago.

It's literally a relatively recent flag that has been mobilized specifically for racial reasons. Whatever noble ideals the confederacy may have stood for, this flag doesn't embody those. That's kind of amusing.
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 01 2015 14:52 GMT
#398
On July 01 2015 23:43 Djzapz wrote:
From reading around it looks like the "Confederate flag" is not really the confederate flag obviously, but it was largely brought back in popular culture in the South (I'm sure somebody brought this up) during the 1940's and in the following decades specifically to oppose desegregation. The flag is essentially a symbol of the confederation that was used to protest against desegregation, to protest against mixing black and whites. That's not that long ago.

It's literally a relatively recent flag that has been mobilized specifically for racial reasons. Whatever noble ideals the confederacy may have stood for, this flag doesn't embody those. That's kind of amusing.

I have brought it up over and over, but shockingly the folks who think the flag isn't a symbol of racism have ignored that. They just want to talk about what the flag means to them or whatever selective interpenetration they have decided to hang their hat on.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
July 01 2015 15:06 GMT
#399
On July 01 2015 23:52 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2015 23:43 Djzapz wrote:
From reading around it looks like the "Confederate flag" is not really the confederate flag obviously, but it was largely brought back in popular culture in the South (I'm sure somebody brought this up) during the 1940's and in the following decades specifically to oppose desegregation. The flag is essentially a symbol of the confederation that was used to protest against desegregation, to protest against mixing black and whites. That's not that long ago.

It's literally a relatively recent flag that has been mobilized specifically for racial reasons. Whatever noble ideals the confederacy may have stood for, this flag doesn't embody those. That's kind of amusing.

I have brought it up over and over, but shockingly the folks who think the flag isn't a symbol of racism have ignored that. They just want to talk about what the flag means to them or whatever selective interpenetration they have decided to hang their hat on.

So you're telling me that the flag wasn't really a thing in the 30's, it was brought back in the 40's for the specific purpose of opposing desegregation and people don't think the flag necessarily has anything to do with racism?

Plansix, what the fuck
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
July 01 2015 15:14 GMT
#400
It's like a bunch of white people from cities are pretending to know the rural south.
+ That one guy from the deep south talking about how black people never complained about the flag until now.
Hilarious.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
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