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On June 26 2015 04:47 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 04:41 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 04:32 Souma wrote:
Companies are free to ban what they want from their stores if people are free to celebrate bigotry. People sort of forget that one. I love how people worship the free market right up until the point where they don't get exactly what they want. Then its all the fault of PC people being offended and not controlling their feelings. Of course, the people who are complaining about the flag not being sold are also offended. That's not necessarily the case. Stores have a right to (not)sell what they want. The problem is that major retailers in this case are determining what's best for the people by controlling market availability for a particular item. If they had such hard feelings to the flag, then why were the selling it for the past 10, 20, 30+ years? Now in just a week all retailers decided to just wipe the merchandise for the sake of public appeal. edit: To get deeper politically, retailers might have a lot less choice about what is put on there shelves if the TPP goes through. But that's another monster for another day that we the people don't get a choice on anyway.
The majority of retailers have determined what is best for them and their business. They have decided they don't want to be associated with that item any more given what it represents. They are not making decisions for people, they decisions for themselves and what sort of business they want to be.
You can still get the flag, just not at those retailers.
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I'm so glad a group of major corporations have decided to protect me from a society where 0.01% of my peers might think about buying a piece of fabric or something relating to it.
Of course companies are free to do whatever they want. Like when Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, et al., froze Wikileaks funds. Wikileaks was still totally free to find equally good alternatives to Visa for their banking problems, like looking for spare change under the sofa cushions. If I recall correctly, the government even had to pressure, I mean ask, the banking companies to do that. But in this case, the company with the largest market cap in the world, among others, decided purely out of their own good will that our society can't handle a 150 year old piece of colored fabric anymore, and are leading the way by being the first companies to make a point of banning it, which definitely won't bring more attention to this non-issue. Just like how publishers and libraries made the brave decision to stop peddling Salinger after John Lennon was shot. It was the right thing to do.
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On June 26 2015 04:53 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 04:48 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 04:46 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 04:35 SixStrings wrote:On June 26 2015 04:19 DrCooper wrote:
That's basically how I see it aswell. I concur. Apple banning history based games from the app store because they depict the flag is insanity. These games don't seek to glorify anything, they're just trying to have some semblance of historical accuracy. And banning a flag that symbolises racial hate whilst allowing Mein Kampf or the Qu'ran to be sold just doesn't make sense to me. At least the flag, unlike these books, doesn't actively incite hate and violence. Now what I do agree with is banning the states from portraying it, of course. books can be studied and can actually add information even if the book is inflammatory. you can't learn anything from a flag. personally the only problem I have with it is apple banning any games about the civil war. that seems a little ridiculous. There are like 20 different Confederate Flags they could use and a lot of them would be more historically accurate. That isn't the point though is it? It is appropriate to use the flag in question in this specific context. The fact that they could have used others is not terribly relevant.
The Battle flag of the Army of Tennessee is one of many flags. That specific flag isn't the national flag of the Confederate States of America. It is, no way, accurate unless you are depicting a specific army from Tennessee and every other army also uses their own flag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
The flag we know as the Confederate Flag became known for what ti si today during the 50s-60s. Parts of it were added to the Georgia state flag after Brown vs the Board of Education.
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On June 26 2015 04:55 oBlade wrote:
I'm so glad a group of major corporations have decided to protect me from a society where 0.01% of my peers might think about buying a piece of fabric or something relating to it.
Of course companies are free to do whatever they want. Like when Visa, Mastercard, Paypal, et al., froze Wikileaks funds. Wikileaks was still totally free to find equally good alternatives to Visa for their banking problems, like looking for spare change under the sofa cushions. If I recall correctly, the government even had to pressure, I mean ask, the banking companies to do that. But in this case, the company with the largest market cap in the world, among others, decided purely out of their own good will that our society can't handle a 150 year old piece of colored fabric anymore, and are leading the way by being the first companies to make a point of banning it, which definitely won't bring more attention to this non-issue. Just like how publishers and libraries made the brave decision to stop peddling Salinger after John Lennon was shot. It was the right thing to do.
Let's be real here, who is praising Walmart et al for "doing the right thing?" Everyone sane and reasonable knows that this decision impacts their bottom line and that is why they made it. Everyone has known this flag is a symbol of racism for the last 50 years but only recently are major corporations removing it from the shelves as a direct response to the shit storm. They're not protecting you from anything, but making an inventory decision like when they decide to stop carrying that brand of laundry detergent because it isn't cost effective to put on the shelves.
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...this is just a pitiful excuse to not address the real and much more sensitive problem. guns. it's just my opinion and i don't wanna start a gun control discussion but i'm just gonna say that i don't expect a drop in murder rate because of flag banning.
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On June 26 2015 04:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 04:53 Crushinator wrote:On June 26 2015 04:48 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2015 04:46 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:On June 26 2015 04:35 SixStrings wrote:I concur. Apple banning history based games from the app store because they depict the flag is insanity. These games don't seek to glorify anything, they're just trying to have some semblance of historical accuracy. And banning a flag that symbolises racial hate whilst allowing Mein Kampf or the Qu'ran to be sold just doesn't make sense to me. At least the flag, unlike these books, doesn't actively incite hate and violence. Now what I do agree with is banning the states from portraying it, of course. books can be studied and can actually add information even if the book is inflammatory. you can't learn anything from a flag. personally the only problem I have with it is apple banning any games about the civil war. that seems a little ridiculous. There are like 20 different Confederate Flags they could use and a lot of them would be more historically accurate. That isn't the point though is it? It is appropriate to use the flag in question in this specific context. The fact that they could have used others is not terribly relevant. The Battle flag of the Army of Tennessee is one of many flags. That specific flag isn't the national flag of the Confederate States of America. It is, no way, accurate unless you are depicting a specific army from Tennessee and every other army also uses their own flag.
They could make a game where the nazis fight the confederacy and it would be completely historically inaccurate, but it would still be fine to display both flags in that context. That was my point.
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The flag is a bit of a stupid argument when the church is on a street named after someone who was an avid slaver.
he was an outspoken proponent of the institution of slavery, which he defended as a "positive good" rather than as a "necessary evil".
Source
The flag was just one symbol of racism prevalent in the South. There are racist symbols and dedications all over the South. This blatant display of racism we saw in SC in the church was just the incident needed to tide the typical "racism isn't a big problem" responses when people point out the racist propaganda in the South (and elsewhere).
Pretending "it's just a piece of fabric" or "It's a sign of historical pride" is so unbelievably ignorant I can't believe people here are saying it too.
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I love this flag from a purely aesthetical POV, so it always makes me sad when I'm reminded of what it symbolizes for Americans ):
@GreenHorizons : well, it is in fact a sign of historical and cultural pride (you said it yourself by saying that it is one the many symbols of racism in the South), like all flags. Which, however, doesn't necessarily make it OK to display it or to support the values and policies that were/are defended by the people displaying it.
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On June 26 2015 05:23 OtherWorld wrote:
I love this flag from a purely aesthetical POV, so it always makes me sad when I'm reminded of what it symbolizes for Americans ):
@GreenHorizons : well, it is in fact a sign of historical and cultural pride (you said it yourself by saying that it is one the many symbols of racism in the South), like all flags. Which, however, doesn't necessarily make it OK to display it or to support the values and policies that were/are defended by the people displaying it.
What I meant was people who claim the historical aspect isn't the one mentioned about it's popularity surge as a symbol of resisting civil rights.
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My first thought was, "Damn, I better buy some because they're going to go up in price." Then I realized I couldn't buy them nor sell them anywhere. What am I going to do, post them on Craigslist?
The stars and bars is kinda like a swastika. So it's kinda bizarre that they were still flown at state capitols to begin with. In any event, this is the land of the free and home of the brave mother fuckers. We shouldn't prohibit people from buying a flag like they do in Germany.
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I cant buy a flag from google stores anymore?
Help, help, my freedom is being violated
People want to tear down monuments of generals who fought in the south because it is offensive to minorities.
yeah, those honorable generals. we should celebrate their glorious fight for slavery
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On June 26 2015 05:29 Sonnington wrote:
My first thought was, "Damn, I better buy some because they're going to go up in price." Then I realized I couldn't buy them nor sell them anywhere. What am I going to do, post them on Craigslist?
The stars and bars is kinda like a swastika. So it's kinda bizarre that they were still flown at state capitols to begin with. In any event, this is the land of the free and home of the brave mother fuckers. We shouldn't prohibit people from buying a flag like they do in Germany.
It's not kind of like a swatstika, it's almost exactly the same thing.
Both symbols represent white supremacy, the only difference is that one believed in it through extermination and the other through slavery.
We don't bat an eye at the idea that Nazi flags are banned in Germany, why should Confederate flags in the United States be any different?
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On June 26 2015 05:37 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:29 Sonnington wrote:
My first thought was, "Damn, I better buy some because they're going to go up in price." Then I realized I couldn't buy them nor sell them anywhere. What am I going to do, post them on Craigslist?
The stars and bars is kinda like a swastika. So it's kinda bizarre that they were still flown at state capitols to begin with. In any event, this is the land of the free and home of the brave mother fuckers. We shouldn't prohibit people from buying a flag like they do in Germany. It's not kind of like a swatstika, it's almost exactly the same thing. Both symbols represent white supremacy, the only difference is that one believed in it through extermination and the other through slavery. We don't bat an eye at the idea that Nazi flags are banned in Germany, why should Confederate flags in the United States be any different?
The best part is that they aren't even banned. Companies are just deciding not to sell them because they don't want to be associated with the symbol any more. There is nothing prohibiting them from doing so.
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On June 26 2015 05:34 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:29 Sonnington wrote:
The stars and bars is kinda like a swastika. So it's kinda bizarre that they were still flown at state capitols to begin with. Seriously.. Show nested quote +In any event, this is the land of the free and home of the brave mother fuckers. meh Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is any call for prohibiting its sale. Companies are simply choosing to no longer sell it.
It is an important distinction to make. It is not illegal for someone to fly a Confederate flag from their car or their front porch, and I don't think it should be. But it seems more than a little strange (and in poor taste) to fly it on public property or from government buildings, when it is not only a symbol of racism but a symbol of a rebellion that was defeated 150 years ago. The Confederacy doesn't exist anymore, and the people that think it does are the racists we are currently talking about.
The Swastika is a good analogy, because it had a positive meaning long before Hitler but was appropriated and made widely known for a different, more sinister use. Sorry, but the Swastika will forever be associated with Nazi Germany just like the Confederate flag will always be associated with racism. As they say, perception is reality.
Although the analogy breaks down when you consider that Nazi Germany was under the entire world's scrutiny, while the Confederate flag is an American problem. Given the stigma surrounding Germany after the war, I can't really fault them for trying to eradicate any Nazi symbolism in the wake of WWII. I do think banning the Confederate flag in every form would be a mistake.
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While I support banning confederate flags from any government buildings (biggest no brainer of all time), this whole "Apple banning civil war games" is so fucking dumb lol.
Most people also forget that four states in the Union had legalized slavery. It's just a interesting fact many people seem to gloss over talking about the Civil War
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On June 26 2015 05:46 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +Confederacy doesn't exist anymore, and the people that think it does are the racists we are currently talking about. Technically not. But you might be surprised how many still support the idea. I see it on a daily basis.
I'm not surprised at all, I've seen it myself. The fact that so many people with that opinion still exist is part of the reason we are having this discussion at all. There's no reason to identify or sympathize with a 150-year old failed secession other than you wish it were the "good ole times," and we all know what that means.
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EPT
