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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:21 Roe wrote: You're saying things are the same when I think the details of their differences are factually important why are the details important? Would it be more convenient to females if people were threatening to rape their mothers, and make fun of their skin color instead? | ||
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killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On March 09 2015 06:58 WolfintheSheep wrote: There was some study about online harassment a bit ago. Can't remember exactly what it covered, I think it was mostly social networks and media or whatever. Results were that everyone gets harassed fairly equally. Females tend to get more female targeted insults than men get male specific insults. The (slight) majority of insults females receive are from other females, and the same for men insulting men. Social media and games are very different platforms. The two aren't really comparable. | ||
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Sandvich
United States57 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:30 wei2coolman wrote: why are the details important? Would it be more convenient to females if people were threatening to rape their mothers, and make fun of their skin color instead? I think it's also important to understand how these insults come about. I highly doubt it that someone would say the black thing to you simply upon hearing your male voice, whereas having a feminine voice is instantly going to earn you different treatment. This different treatment could be an insult like the abortion thing, or something less severe, but either way it is due solely due to the perception of femininity online. | ||
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Glowsphere
United States170 Posts
On March 09 2015 07:06 hfglgg wrote: i think a lot of it has to do with the different ways males talk when in all male or mixed groups. i think most here will agree that whenever they are in a stressfull situation they tend to do a lot more yelling, swearing and insulting when no women are around. the same goes for direct criticism, it will probably tend to be a lot more direct and personal when its targeted towards a man. with online gaming being male dominated women are exposed to the kind of talks males do among themselves and that is not generally considered as very nice. put the anonymity on top of that and you have a very hostile environment in which males have no troubles moveing around because its what they know and what they expect, but for females its very strange and unknown. i think most heavily male dominated fields have a general tone that makes women feel extremly uncomfortable. doesnt matter if its gaming or cooking. I agree with this. Women also talk differently in groups that are exclusively women. Online gaming is like sports locker room talk but much more aggressive due to lack of the chance of getting your ass kicked. I feel like there are fewer and fewer places these days where men can talk freely amongst themselves. I think it is a need that must be fulfilled somewhere, and for the socially awkward, online games used to be the place. The need to have a "female only" space is widely recognized I think... I see many groups and organizations that provide for that. For males, rather than sit around and talk we usually bond better over sports or games. Now that there has been such a huge push to integrate girls into sports, business, and whatever else used to be male dominated, there's not too many places now where you can talk as you would in the locker room. I think this is why some react so strongly to girls joining the gaming sphere; they feel it is taking away a place for them to speak uninhibited. Some might read that last statement as "prevent them from acting like barbaric assholes, you mean". That may apply to some, but for many I think that honestly their thoughts and intentions are not malicious, even if their words might be considered offensive. And I think that by allowing them to have that harmless outlet, it prevents actual malice and bigotry from developing, and spilling out into the rest of their life. | ||
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MadeOfCotton
Germany28 Posts
I agree that of course these threats arent meant seriously in the vast majority of cases (maybe even in all cases), but still. I refuse to accept this behavior as something that should just be tolerated. | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
On March 09 2015 08:33 MadeOfCotton wrote: can we at least agree that threatening to rape someone is a bad thing? I agree that of course these threats arent meant seriously in the vast majority of cases (maybe even in all cases), but still. I refuse to accept this behavior as something that should just be tolerated. I don't think anyone is debating if the insults, aimed at females or males, about anything is a good thing. | ||
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Zaragon
Sweden235 Posts
Sexual, sexist harassment tends to be worse because it has a consistent, real narrative that mirrors what women experience in other contexts. Women have to fear sexual assault, because research suggests as many as 1/3 of women experience it at some point in their lives (variations depending on part of the world, of course, as well as which estimation of unreported cases you believe--likely it's between 70-95% globally, but obviously that's a huge margin). And sexual harassment is something nearly all of them receive often in their real lives. Trolling directed at males tends to be far less personal, far less real. Even if they are threatened with sexual assault, how many men have to live in fear of sexual assault in their real lives? How many men have limited freedoms because they have to avoid risking sexual assault? The only harassment which comes close for males is targeted at: gay males; males who have been sexually abused or lived in significant danger of it; males of different race from the majority of the community in question; males with disability or illness which is visible enough that they are targeted for it. Except for race and sexuality, these are very small minorities, and even when it comes to race, the volume and severity of harassment is notably less than sexual harassment females receive (this is fairly easy to check in the gaming world by spending ten minutes in twitch chats of various streamers). So, yes, trolls are trying to hurt anyone they can, and this is a big problem. But there are different vulnerabilities in different people, and thus different severity of the problem. The largest group this affects is women. So, as a male you might hear a lot of “I hope you get cancer” or crap like that, but even if you have cancer, that makes no sense, right? You can dismiss it because it’s pure BS. But if you have cancer, and people know that you have cancer, and all day you get “I hope your cancer spreads”, “I hope you die”, constantly the same crap, then you’re in the realm of how real and hurtful sexual harassment gets for women. The severity of these things come from repetition and how real and personal the harassment is. In general, men get harassment which is entirely fantasy and mostly doesn't hurt in the least because it’s nonsensical shit talk. Women get all too familiar, all too personal harassment which makes perfect sense and has significant truth to it (truth as in, whether the person means it or is “troll” joking, a ton of other people have said the same thing, using identical or near identical phrasing, and meant it literally). | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
On March 09 2015 08:36 Chewbacca. wrote: I don't think anyone is debating if the insults, aimed at females or males, about anything is a good thing. I do think people comunicating on an uncensored or mostly uncensored enviroment is a good thing. You can always mute/block people, I don't see why woman should receive special treatment. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 09 2015 08:33 MadeOfCotton wrote: can we at least agree that threatening to rape someone is a bad thing? I agree that of course these threats arent meant seriously in the vast majority of cases (maybe even in all cases), but still. I refuse to accept this behavior as something that should just be tolerated. it's banter, people literally playing games about killing other people, in terrible ways. all of a sudden the "r" word is said, everyone loses their mind now? seriously, we joke about "think of the children!" thought process when talking about violent video games. Now people are taking "think of the women!" seriously when talking about video games? lol. On March 09 2015 08:59 GoTuNk! wrote: I do think people comunicating on an uncensored or mostly uncensored enviroment is a good thing. You can always mute/block people, I don't see why woman should receive special treatment. might be nostalgia goggles, but the funnest voice comms I've ever been in were flame wars between two people while playing counter strike 1.6 On March 09 2015 08:56 Zaragon wrote: For the people who don’t understand why it’s worse for women: + Show Spoiler + Sexual, sexist harassment tends to be worse because it has a consistent, real narrative that mirrors what women experience in other contexts. Women have to fear sexual assault, because research suggests as many as 1/3 of women experience it at some point in their lives (variations depending on part of the world, of course, as well as which estimation of unreported cases you believe--likely it's between 70-95% globally, but obviously that's a huge margin). And sexual harassment is something nearly all of them receive often in their real lives. Trolling directed at males tends to be far less personal, far less real. Even if they are threatened with sexual assault, how many men have to live in fear of sexual assault in their real lives? How many men have limited freedoms because they have to avoid risking sexual assault? The only harassment which comes close for males is targeted at: gay males; males who have been sexually abused or lived in significant danger of it; males of different race from the majority of the community in question; males with disability or illness which is visible enough that they are targeted for it. Except for race and sexuality, these are very small minorities, and even when it comes to race, the volume and severity of harassment is notably less than sexual harassment females receive (this is fairly easy to check in the gaming world by spending ten minutes in twitch chats of various streamers). So, yes, trolls are trying to hurt anyone they can, and this is a big problem. But there are different vulnerabilities in different people, and thus different severity of the problem. The largest group this affects is women. So, as a male you might hear a lot of “I hope you get cancer” or crap like that, but even if you have cancer, that makes no sense, right? You can dismiss it because it’s pure BS. But if you have cancer, and people know that you have cancer, and all day you get “I hope your cancer spreads”, “I hope you die”, constantly the same crap, then you’re in the realm of how real and hurtful sexual harassment gets for women. The severity of these things come from repetition and how real and personal the harassment is. In general, men get harassment which is entirely fantasy and mostly doesn't hurt in the least because it’s nonsensical shit talk. Women get all too familiar, all too personal harassment which makes perfect sense and has significant truth to it (truth as in, whether the person means it or is “troll” joking, a ton of other people have said the same thing, using identical or near identical phrasing, and meant it literally). Cuz guys have never insulted each other's penis size before... | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On March 09 2015 03:39 Paljas wrote: I have never gotten abused for being male. That someone feels that they have to hide their gender to feel safe makes me believe that there is a problem. Like I said, dravernor has probably a better perspective on this issue, so I would appreciate if she could share and explain her thoughts. In general, threads like this one leave a bad taste in my mouth: a bunch of men assuring themselves that sexism and sexual harassment are not problems. On March 09 2015 08:56 Zaragon wrote: For the people who don’t understand why it’s worse for women: + Show Spoiler + Sexual, sexist harassment tends to be worse because it has a consistent, real narrative that mirrors what women experience in other contexts. Women have to fear sexual assault, because research suggests as many as 1/3 of women experience it at some point in their lives (variations depending on part of the world, of course, as well as which estimation of unreported cases you believe--likely it's between 70-95% globally, but obviously that's a huge margin). And sexual harassment is something nearly all of them receive often in their real lives. Trolling directed at males tends to be far less personal, far less real. Even if they are threatened with sexual assault, how many men have to live in fear of sexual assault in their real lives? How many men have limited freedoms because they have to avoid risking sexual assault? The only harassment which comes close for males is targeted at: gay males; males who have been sexually abused or lived in significant danger of it; males of different race from the majority of the community in question; males with disability or illness which is visible enough that they are targeted for it. Except for race and sexuality, these are very small minorities, and even when it comes to race, the volume and severity of harassment is notably less than sexual harassment females receive (this is fairly easy to check in the gaming world by spending ten minutes in twitch chats of various streamers). So, yes, trolls are trying to hurt anyone they can, and this is a big problem. But there are different vulnerabilities in different people, and thus different severity of the problem. The largest group this affects is women. So, as a male you might hear a lot of “I hope you get cancer” or crap like that, but even if you have cancer, that makes no sense, right? You can dismiss it because it’s pure BS. But if you have cancer, and people know that you have cancer, and all day you get “I hope your cancer spreads”, “I hope you die”, constantly the same crap, then you’re in the realm of how real and hurtful sexual harassment gets for women. The severity of these things come from repetition and how real and personal the harassment is. In general, men get harassment which is entirely fantasy and mostly doesn't hurt in the least because it’s nonsensical shit talk. Women get all too familiar, all too personal harassment which makes perfect sense and has significant truth to it (truth as in, whether the person means it or is “troll” joking, a ton of other people have said the same thing, using identical or near identical phrasing, and meant it literally). Exactly, thank you. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
So I guess go ahead and come up with some ridiculous laws that will send little kids to court or something, instead of just not being offended by random people you don't know. | ||
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levelping
Singapore759 Posts
Look, this isn't about you. It's not about how someone called your penis as tiny, or how online gaming can be generally toxic. It's about harassment directed at women online. Now unless you claim to be a woman and can understand the shit they go through, I'd suggest that you stay away from platitudes like "grow a thicker skin", or "just don't tell people you're female, or lament about how people said your penis is tiny. For a easy to understand illustration of why such thinking is just silly, imagine the about paragraph being about racist comments online. If white people told black gamers to just "bear with being called nigger" because hey someone called me a (insert white insulte (I don't even know one)), and that there for it isn't a big problem, that person would be laughed out of the room. If you think male sexual harassment is a big issue on line feel free to make your own documentary bringing attention on that. But don't trivialise the problems faced by an entire community just because someone was rude to you online as well. | ||
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MadeOfCotton
Germany28 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:00 wei2coolman wrote: it's banter, people literally playing games about killing other people, in terrible ways. all of a sudden the "r" word is said, everyone loses their mind now? The point is, while for some it might be just banter, others might be seriously hurt by that, and I think they have good reason. And there certainly is a difference in what happens on the game level and on an interpersonal level, we are pretty good at recognising that killing someone in a game isnt real - but when someone threatens to rape or kill us, while rationally its clear they are not serious, emotionally it might not be as clear. I really don't buy the "its the internet so everyone can say whatever they want no matter what it means to other people" argument, or the "grow a thicker skin" one. Its like telling someone who just got punched that its his fault that it hurts. I am not losing my mind, or want to censor anyone, or say that all gamers are sexist or anything like that. I just think discussions like these might help towards a more civilized and friendly communication in the internet. Admittedly this hope is far fetched, and we are talking really long term (like some decades maybe), but one may dream, right? Edit: On March 09 2015 09:17 travis wrote: You know even if people think that girls are unfairly targeted by this behavior compared to other groups(like ugly people, fat people, homosexuals, transgenders, minorities, etc), you still have to acknowledge you are dealing with shitty little kids. So I guess go ahead and come up with some ridiculous laws that will send little kids to court or something, instead of just not being offended by random people you don't know. The thing is, the general atmosphere in a lot of communities is that its ok for shitty little kids to very harshly insult strangers, when it really isnt. It doesn't even need a law for that. If someone starts getting abusive and everyone in the room tells him to shut up, that helps a lot as well, also for comforting the victim of the abuse. The real problem is that we dont think of rape-threats or "show us your tits" etc as abuse anymore, although it clearly is. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:22 levelping wrote: Some of the comments here... Look, this isn't about you. It's not about how someone called your penis as tiny, or how online gaming can be generally toxic. It's about harassment directed at women online. Now unless you claim to be a woman and can understand the shit they go through, I'd suggest that you stay away from platitudes like "grow a thicker skin", or "just don't tell people you're female, or lament about how people said your penis is tiny. For a easy to understand illustration of why such thinking is just silly, imagine the about paragraph being about racist comments online. If white people told black gamers to just "bear with being called nigger" because hey someone called me a (insert white insulte (I don't even know one)), and that there for it isn't a big problem, that person would be laughed out of the room. If you think male sexual harassment is a big issue on line feel free to make your own documentary bringing attention on that. But don't trivialise the problems faced by an entire community just because someone was rude to you online as well. I'm guessing you're not a fan of FGC? | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:23 MadeOfCotton wrote: The point is, while for some it might be just banter, others might be seriously hurt by that, and I think they have good reason. And there certainly is a difference in what happens on the game level and on an interpersonal level, we are pretty good at recognising that killing someone in a game isnt real - but when someone threatens to rape or kill us, while rationally its clear they are not serious, emotionally it might not be as clear. I really don't buy the "its the internet so everyone can say whatever they want no matter what it means to other people" argument, or the "grow a thicker skin" one. Its like telling someone who just got punched that its his fault that it hurts. I am not losing my mind, or want to censor anyone, or say that all gamers are sexist or anything like that. I just think discussions like these might help towards a more civilized and friendly communication in the internet. Admittedly this hope is far fetched, and we are talking really long term (like some decades maybe), but one may dream, right? Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. If you are hurt by harsh language, it is your own fault, especially online where you can just mute or block people you don't like. | ||
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:22 levelping wrote: Some of the comments here... Look, this isn't about you. It's not about how someone called your penis as tiny, or how online gaming can be generally toxic. It's about harassment directed at women online. Now unless you claim to be a woman and can understand the shit they go through, I'd suggest that you stay away from platitudes like "grow a thicker skin", or "just don't tell people you're female, or lament about how people said your penis is tiny. For a easy to understand illustration of why such thinking is just silly, imagine the about paragraph being about racist comments online. If white people told black gamers to just "bear with being called nigger" because hey someone called me a (insert white insulte (I don't even know one)), and that there for it isn't a big problem, that person would be laughed out of the room. If you think male sexual harassment is a big issue on line feel free to make your own documentary bringing attention on that. But don't trivialise the problems faced by an entire community just because someone was rude to you online as well. Are you a woman? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On March 09 2015 08:56 Zaragon wrote: For the people who don’t understand why it’s worse for women: Sexual, sexist harassment tends to be worse because it has a consistent, real narrative that mirrors what women experience in other contexts. Women have to fear sexual assault, because research suggests as many as 1/3 of women experience it at some point in their lives (variations depending on part of the world, of course, as well as which estimation of unreported cases you believe--likely it's between 70-95% globally, but obviously that's a huge margin). And sexual harassment is something nearly all of them receive often in their real lives. Trolling directed at males tends to be far less personal, far less real. Even if they are threatened with sexual assault, how many men have to live in fear of sexual assault in their real lives? How many men have limited freedoms because they have to avoid risking sexual assault? The only harassment which comes close for males is targeted at: gay males; males who have been sexually abused or lived in significant danger of it; males of different race from the majority of the community in question; males with disability or illness which is visible enough that they are targeted for it. Except for race and sexuality, these are very small minorities, and even when it comes to race, the volume and severity of harassment is notably less than sexual harassment females receive (this is fairly easy to check in the gaming world by spending ten minutes in twitch chats of various streamers). So, yes, trolls are trying to hurt anyone they can, and this is a big problem. But there are different vulnerabilities in different people, and thus different severity of the problem. The largest group this affects is women. So, as a male you might hear a lot of “I hope you get cancer” or crap like that, but even if you have cancer, that makes no sense, right? You can dismiss it because it’s pure BS. But if you have cancer, and people know that you have cancer, and all day you get “I hope your cancer spreads”, “I hope you die”, constantly the same crap, then you’re in the realm of how real and hurtful sexual harassment gets for women. The severity of these things come from repetition and how real and personal the harassment is. In general, men get harassment which is entirely fantasy and mostly doesn't hurt in the least because it’s nonsensical shit talk. Women get all too familiar, all too personal harassment which makes perfect sense and has significant truth to it (truth as in, whether the person means it or is “troll” joking, a ton of other people have said the same thing, using identical or near identical phrasing, and meant it literally). what you are saying is utter nonsense. words over some game from people you don't even know does not put the receiver in any real danger. it doesn't really matter how many paragraphs you write or what kind of semantics you use, that point is pretty obvious. does it hurt your sensitivities, make you feel bad? if you aren't self-actualized, sure. and that sucks. but there are tons of groups that suffer from that just like women do. some of them I imagine it is much much worse for. can you imagine how much shit overweight people have to mentally go through? that nonsense must really hurt, and the insults often actually carry over to how they get treated in real life. but you don't really hear them acting like they are victims because culture doesn't have much support for that. And that's actually a good thing, we shouldn't be giving much support to people playing victims in general. People whine too much about shit that really doesn't matter. This article is literally about people complaining they are being mistreated by little kids talking shit in video games, and trying to construe that into some gigantic general problem. It isn't, and you aren't actually going to be hurt by people in the video game. seriously the victim mentality going on in the name of progression is ridiculous. I could go on about this for days. all these groups have figured out it's in their best interest to be victims, and they press this and press this and press that and the only equality they actually want is when everything is skewed in their favor. can we for the love of god focus on things that actually matter and not blow shit out of proportion. On March 09 2015 09:23 MadeOfCotton wrote: Edit: The thing is, the general atmosphere in a lot of communities is that its ok for shitty little kids to very harshly insult strangers, when it really isnt. It doesn't even need a law for that. If someone starts getting abusive and everyone in the room tells him to shut up, that helps a lot as well, also for comforting the victim of the abuse. The real problem is that we dont think of rape-threats or "show us your tits" etc as abuse anymore, although it clearly is. Well, I really don't know what you are talking about. Who is "we" ? I don't think I know anyone other than little kids that think that kind of behavior is acceptable. | ||
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MadeOfCotton
Germany28 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:29 Millitron wrote: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. If you are hurt by harsh language, it is your own fault, especially online where you can just mute or block people you don't like. Thats just not true. This attitude is exactly the problem here. There are some people you can just ignore if they are insulted, but others just get straight up hurt. And the one responsible is definitely not the victim. You might have a point for the usual "idiot" insults, but sexism is on a different level. On March 09 2015 09:33 travis wrote: Well, I really don't know what you are talking about. Who is "we" ? I don't think I know anyone other than little kids that think that kind of behavior is acceptable. Maybe there are just a lot more little kids on the internet than i realized. And I probably misinterpreted your original comment, so sorry about that. If we agree that this kind of behavior is unaccaptable then I'm happy  | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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CorsairHero
Canada9491 Posts
On March 09 2015 09:33 travis wrote: seriously the victim mentality going on in the name of progression is ridiculous. I could go on about this for days. all these groups have figured out it's in their best interest to be victims, and they press that and press that and press that and the only equality they actually want is when everything is skewed in their favor. can we for the love of god focus on things that actually matter and not blow shit out of proportion. Agreed and it goes well beyond female gamers. While this is slightly off topic, I think it's important to note that lesbian couples have higher rates of domestic violence then straight couples and women are more likely to be the perpetrator People seem to be lacking perspective here... | ||
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