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On September 29 2017 00:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2017 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote:
Sadly it doesn't look like many members of the Bundestag from the AfD will follow Petry (so far only her Husband Pretzell, leader of the afd faction in the parliament of Nordrhein-Westfalen).
But it still could be a sign of quarrel in the AfD. If more so-called "moderate" people like Petry leave the AfD, the party will become more and more clearly a far-right party, which could be easier politically isolated. But in the end the social injustices will have to be tempered at least to stop far-right views being successful. Doesn't work, happened in Austria. Twice. First the liberals left the populists and formed the LIF. Then the populists left the Nazis and formed the BZÖ. Both movements failed, the far-right preveiled. FPÖ nowadays is under the control of former Neonazi Strache and far-right fraternities that are pledged to overcoming the historical abomination Austria to rejoin a Greater Germany, take back Southern Tyrol and so on. They are polling at 25%.
Two thirds of AfD voters declared that they only voted out of protest, without regards for the program. I don't see a high of a ceiling as 25% for the AfD honestly, at least not if they continue to stay on their course. At some point they'll need a program of sorts if they want more than just protest votes and at that point they'll need to confront the reality that they'll have to deal with all other parties, who will never govern with a far right party.
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How scary are the AfD actually? I dont know very much about them beyond that they were founded by some economist who hated the Euro and were taken over by people who hate immigration.
Our Swedish equivalent (currently polling at like 15-20%) came straight out of the neo-nazi movement. Most of the time they manage to keep themselves in check and simply present themselves like a normal immigration skeptic party. But every month or so they simply cant contain themselves and start reflexively heiling like some Dr Strangelove incarnation. Like the party secretary giving interviews about how Jews can never belong to the Swedish nation, or city council members heading to a summer retreat called "camp Auschwitz". Just this month it was revealed that several of their politicians had donated money to the "Nordic Resistance Movement", a neo-nazi organization explicitly calling for ethnic cleansing of Scandinavia and that has been implicated in several recent terror attacks. This wasn't even big news, because scandals like this happen so @#ing often.
So yeah I guess I'm asking, on the scale of idiot to nazi where does the AfD actually fall?
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On September 29 2017 02:55 KlaCkoN wrote:
How scary are the AfD actually? I dont know very much about them beyond that they were founded by some economist who hated the Euro and were taken over by people who hate immigration.
Our Swedish equivalent (currently polling at like 15-20%) came straight out of the neo-nazi movement. Most of the time they manage to keep themselves in check and simply present themselves like a normal immigration skeptic party. But every month or so they simply cant contain themselves and start reflexively heiling like some Dr Strangelove incarnation. Like the party secretary giving interviews about how Jews can never belong to the Swedish nation, or city council members heading to a summer retreat called "camp Auschwitz". Just this month it was revealed that several of their politicians had donated money to the "Nordic Resistance Movement", a neo-nazi organization explicitly calling for ethnic cleansing of Scandinavia and that has been implicated in several recent terror attacks. This wasn't even big news, because scandals like this happen so @#ing often.
So yeah I guess I'm asking, on the scale of idiot to nazi where does the AfD actually fall?
A very wide range.
Not as extreme as described by you, but there are enough persons rather close to it in the AfD and even among its leadership these days.
Then the party spans quite a bit, and the main issue is that they basically never distance themselves from their far right elements.
And the voter base spans even wider, simply because there is an enormous gap to the by now fully centrist CDU.
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They usually throw the base some meat and they purposefully insert things like Gauland's "we'll take our country back" to play to the far-right and neo-nazi part of their voterbase. But they usually backpaddle as soon as they're pinned down. So we luckily haven't yet moved towards acceptance of these kinds of statement yet. But I honestly don't doubt that they'll try to shift the frame of what is tolerable in politics day by day.
Putting Schäuble in charge of the parliament was probably a good idea too. He's experienced to know when to crack down on this stuff. Is going to be interesting to see who will get the finance ministry now. If it's the FDP the line on Greece will probably not change, but a softer CDU candidate could be a signal towards Macron and the rest of the EU as well.
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If we really have to wait until the CSU's convention is over in November until our politicans start working on putting together a government, it's gonna be an interesting ride until then. Not that we don't have a lot on our plate to tackle asap...
But noooooooo. Gotta talk about the cut off number for (temporary) refugees. So important lmao.
I so hope Seehofer gets dethroned in the process. He's acting as if he still IS the CSU (which tbh he was for quite some time now but either it changes or this country will stagnate for months if not more because of this incompetent bunch of wannabee know it alls).
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The CSU ironically really is the biggest blockade in the negotiations because of their completely stupid red lines they drew just to appease to the bavarian electorate, which actually did not work out at all. I don't know how many David Cameron moments we need before parties understand that copying populists doesn't work.
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But is the CSU copying the populists though? They never were known as very cosmopolitan 
And for the scariness of AfD, here are some quotes of quite popular members (many of them in Bundestag now):
Gauland to commissioner for integration Özoguz (after she said that german culture is more marked by regional influences and therefore very diverse and no specific general culture of Germany exists):
"Invite her to the Eichsfeld and tell her, what specific german culture is. Then she'll never come back here, and then - thank God - we'll be able to depollute her in Anatolia."
Beatrix von Storch about refugees at the border:
Storch: "People who enter from austria don't have the right of asylum (...). If they don't accept the STOP at the border, "the police officers of border service can use firearms even against persons"" (cited from a german law).
Facebook User: "That's idiocy. Do you want to prevent access of women with children at the "green line" (german term for unoffical border crossing points) with armed force?"
Storch: "Yes"
Höcke about the holocaust memorial in Berlin:
"We Germans, our people, are the only people in the world that has planted a monument of shame in the heart of it's capital."
Poggenburg about little participation of muslims in protests against war and terror:
"Islam represents terror, violence & co, why should muslims demonstrate against that?"
Dubravko Mandic:
"We are distincted from the NPD (nationalsocialist party) mainly by our civil suppoters not so much by our topics."
Gauland:
"We have to close borders and then withstand the cruel scenes."
Gauland again:
"If the french are rightfully proud of their emperor and the Britains of Nelson and Churchill, then we have the right to be proud of the accomplishments of german soldiers in two worldwars."
Aaaand Gauland on german football star Jerome Boateng:
"The people like him as football player. But they don't want a Boateng as a neighbour."
Dubravko Mandic about Barack Obama:
"Quota nigger" (Quotenneger)
Storch:
"I propose to check, at what stage tax fraud is justified as self-defence."
Armin Paul Hampel on arson attacks on homes for asylum-seekers:
„I really don't want to downplay this, but it's obvious that a large part of those socalled arson attacks is caused by the refugees themselves."
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Hey look, the CDU is already teaming up with AfD to vote against a memorial for far-right terror victims of the early 2000s. If you can't beat them join them I guess, just like in 1933.
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Two opposing parties coming together for a common cause? Definitely progress.
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To be fair - they probably would've voted against it also without AfD in the Landtag. The CDU doesn't want to accept the fact, that the police failed on NSU because of structural racism since the NSU-Case became public. That doesn't make the vote against the memorial (also against a fund for the families of the victims) any better, though 
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Thanks at Godwrath and Acrofales to explaining the Catalan situation to me.
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It seems like the use of police force to stop the Catalan referendum was a very bad idea. Lots of videos of civilians getting hit by police. Even if you didn't care about independence you would care about police hitting peaceful people and firing rubber bullets. I can only see this backfiring on Madrid now :X
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Wow. That sounds like the worst way to react to the situation.
They know that they can just let them have the referendum and ignore it afterwards? This turns pretty much anyone who didn't care before against you, because people really don't like repression.
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On October 01 2017 20:38 Simberto wrote:
Wow. That sounds like the worst way to react to the situation.
They know that they can just let them have the referendum and ignore it afterwards? This turns pretty much anyone who didn't care before against you, because people really don't like repression.
The Streisand Effect, but in politics.
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And of course there will be apologists saying that the crowd is to be blamed because of being provocative... as always. We had this recently at the g20-protests in Hamburg.
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On October 01 2017 20:38 Simberto wrote:
Wow. That sounds like the worst way to react to the situation.
They know that they can just let them have the referendum and ignore it afterwards? This turns pretty much anyone who didn't care before against you, because people really don't like repression.
The current's goverment base would repproach the goverment if they didn't do a thing, and would praise them if they did, specially if it was harsh "to put those catalans in place". Kind of like when Sosexy around here claims that something has to be done about inmigration, doesn't matter what, but something.
And obviously the govern of cataluña also wants this because it fuels their cause even further, meanwhile the reasonable stances to push for a referendum in cataluña get pushed aside because now it isn't about us, but about me against you and that's the only stance. The media is also doing their job. I mean in one of the channels i saw, you have press members reporting into this shitshow with epic music in the background. This polemic is very profitable for the PP, the independentists and the media alike.
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The police violence in completely unnecessary... But Spain can't let Cataluna go. They can't afford it and it will set dangerous precedent. Also EU can't afford to lose UK and huge part of the spanish economy at the same time, so they will not support the referendum.
btw presenting this as crime against democracy is dumb as well. This referendum is not democracy, it's seperatism. The spanish shouldn't allow the separation to happen, but they are doing it in a dumb way.
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On October 01 2017 22:35 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2017 20:38 Simberto wrote:
Wow. That sounds like the worst way to react to the situation.
They know that they can just let them have the referendum and ignore it afterwards? This turns pretty much anyone who didn't care before against you, because people really don't like repression. The current's goverment base would repproach the goverment if they didn't do a thing, and would praise them if they did, specially if it was harsh "to put those catalans in place". Kind of like when Sosexy around here claims that something has to be done about inmigration, doesn't matter what, but something. And obviously the govern of cataluña also wants this because it fuels their cause even further, meanwhile the reasonable stances to push for a referendum in cataluña get pushed aside because now it isn't about us, but about me against you and that's the only stance. The media is also doing their job. I mean in one of the channels i saw, you have press members reporting into this shitshow with epic music in the background. This polemic is very profitable for the PP, the independentists and the media alike.
Sounds like everbody wins! Hell, if this shitshow with spain and britain happens at the same time we might even get ourselves into the really big economic crisis. Can't wait for a time after hyperinflation, I will be able to buy my own flat, paid for by work!
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EPT
