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On October 01 2017 21:01 fronkschnonk wrote:
And of course there will be apologists saying that the crowd is to be blamed because of being provocative... as always. We had this recently at the g20-protests in Hamburg.
Don't compare people trying to vote to the leftists rich kid scum from G20. I don't see the catalans plundering and destroying civilian property without reasons.
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On October 02 2017 00:35 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2017 21:01 fronkschnonk wrote:
And of course there will be apologists saying that the crowd is to be blamed because of being provocative... as always. We had this recently at the g20-protests in Hamburg. Don't compare people trying to vote to the leftists rich kid scum from G20. I don't see the catalans plundering and destroying civilian property without reasons.
Well, they are directly disobeying a court order that declared the referendum illegal.
Personally I love to watch these shitshows in which right-winger nationalists fight right-winger nationalists. It's like one of those retard boulevard TV-Shows, just better, because it is real! Maybe we'll even end up in another world war. How exciting right-wingers make the world!
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On October 01 2017 23:14 Pr0wler wrote:
The police violence in completely unnecessary... But Spain can't let Cataluna go. They can't afford it and it will set dangerous precedent. Also EU can't afford to lose UK and huge part of the spanish economy at the same time, so they will not support the referendum.
btw presenting this as crime against democracy is dumb as well. This referendum is not democracy, it's seperatism. The spanish shouldn't allow the separation to happen, but they are doing it in a dumb way.
pretty much my thought
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Each time there were images of repression in Venezuela, our dear mainstream/right-wing pundits questioned the radical left as if it was co-responsible for what happened there. Naturally, I expect a similar treatment for all members of the EPP for what happened in Spain... but something tells me that I can wait!
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Big J it's cute that you think the Catalan independence movement is right wing. It isn't, the Catalan government who called for it is a union of center right, center left and leftist parties.
TheDwf yeah the similarity between Venezuela and Spain is so overwhelming (no, no it isn't). You strike me as having been the type of kid who would call his parents fascists for putting him to bed at 9pm.
Can we use current events as more than an opportunity to confirm our silly personal political biases and narratives? Perhaps as a chance to know more about the issues at hand, discuss potential outcomes and their desirability?
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On October 02 2017 01:51 warding wrote:
Big J it's cute that you think the Catalan independence movement is right wing. It isn't, the Catalan government who called for it is a union of center right, center left and leftist parties.
TheDwf yeah the similarity between Venezuela and Spain is so overwhelming (no, no it isn't). You strike me as having been the type of kid who would call his parents fascists for putting him to bed at 9pm.
Can we use current events as more than an opportunity to confirm our silly personal political biases and narratives? Perhaps as a chance to know more about the issues at hand, discuss potential outcomes and their desirability?
Nationalism is right-wing, always was, always will be. Sure, people who only see the mainstream and then look left and right will get the idea that it can be left. There are very few people with true left-wing spirits nowadays. A bunch of nationalist socialists who are romanticising about getting it done on a national level, a bunch of pseudo-liberals who would never question property and believe robbing income to the maximum makes sense and a few sprinkles who believe reintroducing Leninism "but not being Lenin/Stalin" is the solution.
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Disagree with the statement about nationalism. Left wing politics, especially the 'new left wing' is deeply provincial, sceptical of globalisation and so forth. Internationalist left-wing politics was almost always quickly ousted by more nationalist forces whenever it showed up somewhere.
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On October 02 2017 03:36 Nyxisto wrote:
Disagree with the statement about nationalism. Left wing politics, especially the 'new left wing' is deeply provincial, sceptical of globalisation and so forth. Internationalist left-wing politics was almost always quickly ousted by more nationalist forces whenever it showed up somewhere.
Which is pretty much what I said. I just don't call them real left-wingers. One of the reasons why social-democracy used to be the real progressive power, not planned economy Sowjetism (although that is hindsight).
Just like liberals always seem to turn into conservatives. It's really simple, if you have goals but you realize those goals are not achievable unless you change certain core parameters - e.g. for leftists that you simply cannot tax stuff when you have open borders for money; for liberals that you simply cannot open borders whilst you have a "social" state that transfers money around between poor people and you let in more poor people - then you are left with two choices: Change your agenda, or give up. This is why conservatives are winning. Left and liberal parties want to do things that pretty much cannot be done in a globalized economy unless you create globalized states.
Which is why Macron is completely right on his EU stance. Europe is either doomed to become a conservative shithole again, like it has been most of its lifetime, or it comes together. And time is running up, conservatives are strongly pushing for the shithole and all they have to do to win is hold the line and then declare that there is no alternative.
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This is not going to go well. Rajoy's speech was not an olive branch. He was speaking to his base, and not to the people who took to the streets to vote today.
I understand he can't denounce the police, but praising them for their actions was a horrible idea. As was claiming the only guilty party for what happened is the Catalan government. It was also absolutely laughable how he stated he has been open to honest dialog throughout the time leading up to this.
I listened to it and thought it was bad. I can only think that separatist Catalans listen to it and want to take to the street tonight... which will go from bad to worse. I hope I'm wrong.
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This looks ugly, to be sure. Not going to end well. News of this even made headlines around the newspapers I read despite Catalonia being pretty much irrelevant to anything round these parts.
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On October 02 2017 01:51 warding wrote:
TheDwf yeah the similarity between Venezuela and Spain is so overwhelming (no, no it isn't). You strike me as having been the type of kid who would call his parents fascists for putting him to bed at 9pm.
He didn't claim that the protests were similar, he claimed that he should be able to expect that the coverage would be similar, and yet he doesn't.
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While upholding the constitution in Spain is a very noble idea due to their history of autocracy it has definitely been defended in the wrong way. Hopefully both sides can negotiate and this won't lead to some unilateral declaration of independence like current Catalan leaders are talking of otherwise a war of separatism is a very real possibility considering the current response from Madrid.
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When you repress people what you get is revolution and/or civil war. I'm surprised that this hasn't risen to something more yet. On the other hand, it sucks to lose territory and your own people. I don't support either side but this needs to be resolved peacefully for sure.
Also, the Spanish government made a big mistake today. This will only fuel separatism. You need the opposite effect here.
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what's there to believe? Catalonia wants independence, Spanish state isn't going to recognise it. We knew that before the referendum, question is only if it comes down to force which would be ugly.
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If I lived there I would vote for independence as well and I imagine that so would everyone else. I am 0% surprised if/that the result is overwhelming.
"No legal basis" starts to become a meaningless factor when force is already involved so no idea what could come of it.
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I want my own state too. 
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The referendum result is meaningless anyway. Its impossible to know how if the people running it can even know who voted and for what, how many people voted, if they are lying etc. To much chaos and the "no" side obviously wouldnt have voted.
But more importantly the spanish goverment has already showed that they are more than willing to throw down. So voting on the matter is pointless because if they want independence they are probably going to have to fight for it. This could go from bad to worse really easily right now.
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EPT
