EPT
To me, they have been spanisch for 500 years now. They had rebellions and uprisings but according to internet history they seemed to stem from inequality and injustice. Like the peasant uprisings of southern germany due to the terrible situation they were in. Which is why i am asking, i am interested in what makes people say, you know what, we should totally do our own thing.European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 953
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Broetchenholer
Germany1950 Posts
To me, they have been spanisch for 500 years now. They had rebellions and uprisings but according to internet history they seemed to stem from inequality and injustice. Like the peasant uprisings of southern germany due to the terrible situation they were in. Which is why i am asking, i am interested in what makes people say, you know what, we should totally do our own thing. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10842 Posts
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Mafe
Germany5966 Posts
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
What's the problem here? | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
On September 28 2017 00:27 Simberto wrote: In the past, sure, maybe, even though i don't remember any independence unilaterally declared withouth real fighting rather than terrorist attacks. Nowadays it's different. ETA or IRA didn't accomplish much if anything. Meanwhile Scottish got their referendum (i am very ignorant on this, is it binding? i am sure it is a bit more complex than that).I think the difference here is between supporting something by voting for it, and actually be willing to fight for it IRA style. Actually killing people until you get the thing you want. Maybe there is a different way, too. But historically, nations become independent either when the main nation is no longer interested in having them or doesn't care about it, or if their people are willing to kill people until that happens. There are also some rare situations where they don't kill people, but just die until they get their independence, like India. But there is a huge difference in commitment between voting for something and dying/killing for it. So if we were to run an analogy, Catalonia has been seeking for a referendum akin to what the Scottish got, and i certainly believe this is easier to obtain than an unilateral declaration of indepence. The central goverment is showing that they are more than willing to flex the muscle, and probably looking for international support (the decission to ignore Europe and go to USA is also because how he has been dealing with the situation is way more likely to be criticized here in Europe, than by Trump). I am sure Acrofales would do a better job than me at clearing this up to be honest. Not only he has a much better english, but also the knowledge to back up it, even if i will disagree with him in some historical stuff. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9270 Posts
ignore Europe Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that "Europe" is against separatist movements in general. I remember something about EU officials saying that Catalonians or Scots should be very careful about seceding, because if they do that, they'll automatically leave the union and lose their access to the common market. Getting Trump's support wasn't an alternative, it's just a bonus. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11735 Posts
On September 28 2017 06:21 Sent. wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that "Europe" is against separatist movements in general. I remember something about EU officials saying that Catalonians or Scots should be very careful about seceding, because if they do that, they'll automatically leave the union and lose their access to the common market. Getting Trump's support wasn't an alternative, it's just a bonus. EU is against separatists precisely because of spain and catalonia. Since new countries are technically new countries, they would have to join the EU anew, which requires that all countries in the EU agree to that. (That doesn't necessarily need to be overly complex though) And since spain doesn't want catalonia to secede, it is assumed that they wouldn't allow any separatists from other countries to join the EU, either. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10842 Posts
On September 28 2017 02:20 Mafe wrote: so remind me, ETA was basque and unrelated to catalans? Yes? | ||
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sc-darkness
856 Posts
On September 28 2017 06:25 Simberto wrote: EU is against separatists precisely because of spain and catalonia. Since new countries are technically new countries, they would have to join the EU anew, which requires that all countries in the EU agree to that. (That doesn't necessarily need to be overly complex though) And since spain doesn't want catalonia to secede, it is assumed that they wouldn't allow any separatists from other countries to join the EU, either. It begs the question why Kosovo was ok... :D It's not in the EU but the question is the same. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11735 Posts
Spain has a lot of power in this case, because as a EU country, it basically has a veto on any country joining the EU (As all EU countries have to agree on those). Spain doesn't really like people separating from their host countries, because it has its own separatist problem with catalonia and the basques. Thus, they are not likely to help a country that just seceded from an EU state to join the EU. Most other EU countries (or countries in general) don't view secession as that bad, because no part of their country wants to secede. In the case of Kosovo, spain didn't have that power of veto. And thus, noone really cared what spain thought about it. Also, the situation was a bit different with the genocide going on. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18206 Posts
So it is definitely not true to state that Catalonia has a long peaceful history within Spain and independence movement is new.. it has been around since at least the 18th century. That said, the historical and cultural aspects are mostly irrelevant to the current movement. Insofar as politicians refer to history at all, it's to Franco (who made another attempt at repressing the Catalan language). The thing is, though, that Catalonia was quite onboard with the constitution as drafted after the establishment of democracy: Taradellas and Pujol could probably have leveraged their power to get a similar exceptional status to that of the Basque country (and Navarra), but at that time, I believe the fear of sparking a new civil war was probably greater than the call for Catalan autonomy (which unlike the Basque country, did not have a terrorist organization fighting for independence... Terra Lliure was both ineffective and had no popular support). But things have changed, and mainly due to economic reasons. Feel free to read my previous post a few pages back for my take on that. But once again, I'm a foreigner living here, and never learned this history in school, and am working off what I have read and talked about over time during my stay here. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9270 Posts
Any European capital wouldn't back separatists from other EU member state because if they did, they would ruin their relations with that state AND have a harder time in dealing with their own separatists. For example: Corisican or Silesian indepedence movements aren't serious now, but I'm convinced Paris or Warsaw wouldn't like it if Corisica or Silesia had an example to follow at some unspecified time in the future. We supported Kosovo because we thought it was worth it, there is no reason to back Catalonia. At least not until Spain starts treating Catalonians like Turkey treats Kurds. + Show Spoiler + in before certain Turkish poster shows up | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
While we can say that it is fueled by economical reasons (2011 and 2012 asking for a fiscal policy change, which probably was reasonable), catalonians having a chunk of their population wanting independence is not new and solely based on economical factors. I remember having these discussions back in 2006-2007 with catalonian friends when i worked there, and even in the best years economically speaking, the youth was already quite on board with the prospects of leaving Spain, or atleast, a majority of college students i met at the time. They felt that the Spanish goverment was culturally repressing them. If i am not mistaken since the late 90's, there was a lot of discussion going on about catalonian language being forced as mandatory ahead of spanish as an ever present polemic. Maybe it wasn't as loud as it is nowadays, or neither has the same popular support, but the conflict has been ever present. Offtopic and anecdotical, but it was on Alicante (Valencia) where i actually had to deal with having exams in valencià and the teacher telling me to suck it up, but never had a problem in Barcelona (well, except with some clients who were complete douches, but it was more related to skin tone). | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
One of the most prominent figures in the nationalist Alternative for Germany said Tuesday she plans to leave the party, even as other lawmakers from the anti-migrant party held their first meeting after a strong showing at the polls. The announcement from Frauke Petry, the party's co-chairwoman since 2015, came after Alternative for Germany, or AfD, won 12.6 percent of the vote in Sunday's election to secure seats in the national parliament for the first time. Petry told reporters Tuesday in the eastern city of Dresden she would leave the party "in the coming days." She said it was "the logical consequence of what has happened in recent months in our party." She played a key role in moving AfD's focus from opposing eurozone bailouts to migration when she took over in 2015, but has been increasingly sidelined in recent months. Petry has said she aimed to make the AfD ready for government in 2021, and urged her party earlier this year to exclude members who expressed extremist views. "We think this country urgently needs political change, but we no longer consider our party in a position to take it in hand" after months of in-fighting, she said Tuesday. "Of course I want to continue pushing for political change in 2021 as an individual lawmaker, and perhaps later in a different configuration that it's far too early to speak about," she added. Petry had already announced Monday that she wouldn't join the party's parliamentary group, but left her future open. Other leaders then urged her to leave the party altogether. Her husband, Marcus Pretzell, the party leader in the western state of North Rhine-Westphalia and a regional lawmaker there, told The Associated Press that he is also leaving AfD. AfD won 94 of the 709 seats in the new German parliament, including Petry's. It wasn't immediately clear whether any other federal lawmakers would follow her departure. Fellow AfD members appeared relatively unconcerned by the news as they gathered in Berlin. Sunday's election left Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative bloc weakened but still easily the biggest group in parliament. Merkel now faces a complicated task in forming a coalition most likely with the pro-business Free Democrats and the traditionally left-leaning Greens. Her partners in the outgoing government, the center-left Social Democrats, say they will go into opposition after they lost substantial support. Before she can haggle with other parties, Merkel will have to smooth over tensions with the Christian Social Union, the Bavaria-only sister to her own conservative Christian Democratic Union. The CSU leader, Bavarian governor Horst Seehofer, feuded with Merkel over the 2015-16 migrant influx and demanded a fixed annual limit on the number of asylum-seekers Germany accepts. The pair buried their differences in recent months, but Seehofer has insisted since election night that the conservatives need to close an "open flank" to their right. "We must make clear to the public we have understood (that) just carrying on wouldn't be good," Seehofer said, adding that people "expect policies that react to this election result." Merkel said Monday she "can't see what we should do differently." But Seehofer said after meeting her Tuesday he has "great confidence" that they will close ranks. Source | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
But it still could be a sign of quarrel in the AfD. If more so-called "moderate" people like Petry leave the AfD, the party will become more and more clearly a far-right party, which could be easier politically isolated. But in the end the social injustices will have to be tempered at least to stop far-right views being successful. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 28 2017 23:11 fronkschnonk wrote: Sadly it doesn't look like many members of the Bundestag from the AfD will follow Petry (so far only her Husband Pretzell, leader of the afd faction in the parliament of Nordrhein-Westfalen). But it still could be a sign of quarrel in the AfD. If more so-called "moderate" people like Petry leave the AfD, the party will become more and more clearly a far-right party, which could be easier politically isolated. But in the end the social injustices will have to be tempered at least to stop far-right views being successful. Doesn't work, happened in Austria. Twice. First the liberals left the populists and formed the LIF. Then the populists left the Nazis and formed the BZÖ. Both movements failed, the far-right preveiled. FPÖ nowadays is under the control of former Neonazi Strache and far-right fraternities that are pledged to overcoming the historical abomination Austria to rejoin a Greater Germany, take back Southern Tyrol and so on. They are polling at 25%. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10842 Posts
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