EPT
What i meant was, just because you want independence from spain/britain/whatever doesn't mean AT ALL that you want to leave the EU.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 957
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Velr
Switzerland10950 Posts
What i meant was, just because you want independence from spain/britain/whatever doesn't mean AT ALL that you want to leave the EU. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
I know that the EU is acting incredibly unfair and selfish on a global scale, but I hope that by learning to cope with inequality in the bloc, we will learn how to actually address global inequality. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
If they manage to gain permission to become independent, the Catalan government most likely has learned from Britain what not to do concerning leaving and re-entering the EU | ||
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
Pushing for European empire however is another thing... Some people are trying to do that and I'm against it. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
What are the detriments of a European empire? For you, personally. I don't wanna come about as condescending, so let me say this: I'm righteously curious. | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
We already are part of the biggest military aliance so currently the united army is not needed, too. The bigger the state - the bigger the bureaucracy. Even now we have too much of it, I can't imagine what will happen if we create a giant state that needs even bigger administration. The voice of the small countries will be lost. Now as individual states we have a say on the important matters and can clearly state our position. In the giant mishmash of a government that the new state will have, the voice of the bigger groups will smuther the rest. The representation problem becomes greater the bigger the state is. I can't imagine comunicating with my representative in the parliament in Brussels or with someone from the government. It doesn't work now, it will work even less then. | ||
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SMaD
Spain137 Posts
On October 03 2017 07:15 warding wrote: Are the Catalans aware of the struggle they will fsce if indeed they continue to go forward? Even assuming they get past the fact they may be left without a local government and under complete control from Madrid, if they do achieve independence they will be left out of the EU from one day to the next, they'd need to create a new currency, their economy would be left in a shambles, Barcelona would be stuck in a league playing Espanyol every weekend... a nightmare. As all in politics, it's a matter of negotiating because things do not happen instantaneously. Even the UK, whose citizens explicitly voted to leave the EU, is in the middle of heavy negotiations so I doubt that Catalonia would leave the EU "from one day to the next".These kind of things in politics take years, enough time to plan what will happen when independence actually comes. Also, the EU could eventually create or find some mechanisms to "quicken up" the reentry of Catalonia considering its willingness to remain inside the Union. The EU Commission itself brought up this idea when Scotland manifested their desire to remain inside the EU despite the Brexit. This could be done while Spain and Catalonia would still be negotiating the terms/schedule of independence so Catalonia reentries the EU immediately after independence (or just continues to be part of it). Clearly, all of this is a 'best-case scenario' because Spain will surely veto any negotiation with Catalonia. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9331 Posts
On October 03 2017 07:31 Pr0wler wrote: How can being european be more important than being german/french/albanian or whatever ? You are both. If we are talking strictly about the EU, the question is even more confusing. The EU is just one economic union, it's not a state and it doesn't have a nation. It is constructed by 28(7) nations. For some reason the individual nations are being presented as the opposite of the EU... I can't see a reason why you can't have both. If the EU is benefitial to your country the most patriotic thing is to support the EU. Pushing for European empire however is another thing... Some people are trying to do that and I'm against it. The question is about issues where you can't eat the cake and have it. If you were an emperor of Bulgaria (lol) and had to choose between a thing that's great for Bulgaria but slightly bad for the union as a whole, and a thing that's terrible for Bulgaria but slightly beneficial for the union as a whole, what would you choose? What if the union won't want or be able to compensate the losses caused by picking the terrible thing? | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
On October 03 2017 08:58 Sent. wrote: The question is about issues where you can't eat the cake and have it. If you were an emperor of Bulgaria (lol) and had to choose between a thing that's great for Bulgaria but slightly bad for the union as a whole, and a thing that's terrible for Bulgaria but slightly beneficial for the union as a whole, what would you choose? What if the union won't want or be able to compensate the losses caused by picking the terrible thing? Well the choice here is pretty simple. The whole point in participating in such union is to make things better for your individual country. If you have to do things that are terrible for your country, but are good for the union, then what is the point of participating in that union ? Currently though such choices are not present. The union is mutually beneficial for all of the parties, otherwise as I said, there is no point to be in it. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
This is a thing that has always confused me, why not make better borders if they are available? What is so awesome about the borders of 1866? 1917? 1944? etc? | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
In my opinion making a union where smaller, maybe then federal states have sufficient say, is still an option to be explored. There is ample experience around the world to learn from. A more cohesive military can save tremendous amounts of money, might cost jobs though. At the moment we have at least three levels of bureaucracy. European - state - federal. There is hardly any need for that except making oneself s tax haven. I'm willing to learn on that one though. I don't understand where the increase in bureaucracy comes from. Countries have to implement European law. It's kinda less of a process than of every country decides to have their own and try to harmonize afterwards. So I'm pretty fine with the European law taking a bit longer to be made. I wholeheartedly agree that removing the states over the next decades and merging them in a super country is not really realistic before pressing matters such as universal income in the wake of automation and income differences throughout the EU are addressed. I also agree with the problem of not feeling represented. Though this applies, as you pointed out, to my own government as well. Will we ever get all European countries on the same page with regards to a stance on Russia, the middle East, gay marriage, family values and so on? Probably not. Not in thirty years. Is that a problem? I think so. As much as smaller counties feeling governed. Is it worth trying to address that and work to strengthen us as a community? definitely. We have to take heed of the experience gained in the past thirty odd years of the German unification, problems arising with xenophobia, integration of economically disparate states and cultural differences throughout the union. Imagine the Frenchman striking against a Brussels law or Germans riding their cars to Strasbourg in protest of a general speed limit. I don't think it can be easy, neither fast, but ultimately it's a vision of people coming together as a community, recognizing the importance of sharing instead of hoarding. But whether my ramblings are attractive to others is rather questionable I presume  | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18438 Posts
On October 03 2017 17:10 cLutZ wrote: Real question: What is the legitimate moral case for Catalonia (or another such Spanish sub-state) to be compelled to remain part of Spain when they dont want it? This is a thing that has always confused me, why not make better borders if they are available? What is so awesome about the borders of 1866? 1917? 1944? etc? Well, you're starting from the assumption that they don't want it. That is far from clear; although the more dickish the central government acts the more you can probably count on that assumption being true, it's almost like the Spanish government wants Catalunya to secede at this point. This referendum would ideally have brought clarity to what percentage of Catalans actually want independence, but obviously the way it was disturbed means nothing much of value can be gathered from the results. But the last opinion polls before things started heating up actually indicated that there is a majority of Catalans in favour of remaining as part of Spain. It is worth noting that the Junts pel Sí and CUP have a majority in parliament, but not a majority in the popular vote (and even adding in other parties in favor of independence, does not reach a majority). That also doesn't say everything, however, because (1) things have changed since the elections and (2) I know people who voted for other parties, because they fundamentally disagree with other important points in CiU (PDeCAT), CUP or the other pro-independence parties' programs... and in general elections independence is just one of many issues at stake. Secondly, there is a historic point to be made, and I am making it despite not actually agreeing with it: throughout the previous centuries, the Spanish government has counted on Catalunya being a part of Spain. The Barcelona port is by far the largest (and most profitable) harbor in Spain and a lot of economic planning was done with the explicit assumption that all regions of Spain belong to Spain. These are investments in the future by other Spanish regions. And if the Spanish central government had known Catalunya would become independent they would have invested differently; for instance, by incentivizing Seat and Repsol to put their factories in Valencia (to name a random city) rather than Barcelona. There was a lot of positive feedback in Catalunya becoming one of the economic motors of Spain: it was economically powerful, therefore attracted national investment, making it more economically powerful. Removing this region from Spain would create economic disaster for other regions of Spain that rely on the beneficial feedback of Catalunya being fully integrated in the national economy. What gives Catalans the right to unilaterally (without other regions affected by this decision) declare independence from the union that they have benefited from for the last 500 years? | ||
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
It's not immediately clear to me that Catalans alone have a right to decide to declare independence in a simple majority referendum. First that would be a pretty catastrophic precedent for just about any country, not just Belgium. If conducted after a particularly nasty Porto - Benfica and at a time of heightened hubris, you might get a majority of Oporto district residents to vote for independence from Portugal just for shits and giggles. I mean our richest county routinely votes for a convicted felon for county president, the people's will at the polls isn't really all that reliable. Second, it's crazy to think that I wouldn't have a say in whether Oporto stays in Portugal, I mean, part of my family is from there, I do business there, that's where I first kissed one of my previous girlfriends, what do you mean it's not my country? I don't think a region belongs solely and exclusively to those who live or were born in it. We like to romanticize about independence movements but that really makes a lot more sense when there's actual oppression going on. Catalonian nationalism always struck me as somewhat ugly, the type of nationalism where kids are forced to learn in Catalan despite a majority of them having Spanish as mother tongue. I'm reluctant to believe the interest of the people actually coincides with those of the Catalan elites who have spend decades trying to spur national identity and nationalistic fervor. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10950 Posts
If not for ETA (or Bombs), why is the basque territory treated "better" (or closer to what the catalans want) than catalonia? | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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warding
Portugal2397 Posts
The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognizes and guarantees the right to self-government of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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