European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 958

On October 04 2017 06:13 Velr wrote:
Just one question:

If not for ETA (or Bombs), why is the basque territory treated "better" (or closer to what the catalans want) than catalonia?

On October 04 2017 06:08 warding wrote:
Catalonian nationalism always struck me as somewhat ugly, the type of nationalism where kids are forced to learn in Catalan despite a majority of them having Spanish as mother tongue. I'm reluctant to believe the interest of the people actually coincides with those of the Catalan elites who have spend decades trying to spur national identity and nationalistic fervor.

On October 04 2017 07:34 warding wrote:
I'll further add that the Spanish Constitution of 1978 was approved on a referendum by over 90% of Catalans and 91% of the general population. Here's the money quote:

On October 04 2017 17:52 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
To me it feels a bit of a waste of a good thing. Catalonia is not in any form of big trouble that requires immediate action. It's very understandable that emotions are high but is it really necessary to force this independence now with Spain not accepting it in any way? I think before the police violence it was polled a few months ago that 40+% didn't even want independence. Won't it make the situation worse for everyone? Wouldn't it be better to strive for a way of independence that is already accepted beforehand, like Scotland did with their referendum? Maybe it will take 20 more years or 40 but if that results in a amical departure instead of escalation it's worth it.

And Spain should immediately apologize for seizing the votes and the police violence (a disastrous move to send them in like that...) and either work on reducing differences with Catalonia or work towards a legal means of separation...

These independence calls should not be taken lightly, it's very easy to convince people all their problems are caused by the big evil outsiders and thus create support, see Brexit. But you have to realize how serious of an issue it is and that just independence doesn't magically make problems disappear or lead to a better reality for normal people.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/28/macrons-counter-terror-bill-risks-frances-human-rights-record-says-un

Macron’s counter-terror bill risks France’s human rights record, say UN experts

Liberty and security ‘under threat’ from bill proposing to end France’s state of emergency by transferring special police powers into permanent law

On October 04 2017 17:25 SMaD wrote:


This is just plain wrong.

First, Catalan and Spanish are both considered mother tongues in Catalonia. Its learning has nothing to do with nationalism enforcing it, it has to do with the fact that people want to speak Catalan because it's part of their cultural background just like Portuguese is a part of Portugal culture. Also, both Catalan and Spanish are official in Catalonia so they are learnt as it happens in other countries/regions where two languages are official (see Basque Country and other countries). Depending on the city/area, you can find people speaking more frequently one or the other language but, amongst kids, I'd say that 65% use Catalan as their 'default' mother tongue.

Regarding the interest of elites vs people, it's difficult to say. Currently, there are as much elites interested in nationalism/independece (politicians, etc.) as elites interested in keeping the current 'status quo' (businessmen, etc.) and the same could be said for plain citizens.



From my (young) point of view, that constitution was written almost 40 years ago when Spain was leaving behind 40 years of cruel dictatorship. Also, it was written under pressure from the military (see the 'coup d'état' in 1981) and politicians/businessmen who supported Franco. Whatever was written in that Constitution, it would always be better than laws under Franco's regime so those statistics don't mean anything today. Some analysts even argue that the '15-M movement' and the 'Catalan issue' are symptoms of this Constitution not being enough.

On October 04 2017 20:29 warding wrote:

First language: Spanish 55%, Catalan 31%.
http://llengua.gencat.cat/web/.content/documents/publicacions/altres/arxius/EULP2013_angles.pdf

Only 60% of Catalans know how to write in Catalan, vs 95.9% Spanish.

It's all fine and good that Catalans want to preserve their language. What isn't cool imo is to impose it in schools where the majority of kids speak Spanish and not Catalan at home. It makes learning more difficult for kids.

On October 04 2017 20:29 warding wrote:

Almost by definition, all constitutions are approved in times of turmoil. Still, they should be preserved and not completely turned on their head every new generation with a simple majority referendum. You can't live in permanent uncertainty.

On October 04 2017 22:52 SMaD wrote:
I'd agree that constitutions are approved under not-so-easy circumstances but considering that it was approved 40 years ago under the threat of the military, I think it is about time to consider at least a small update.

Catalonia’s president has accused King Felipe of Spain of acting as a mouthpiece for the Spanish government as the country wrestles with the region’s secession crisis and has vowed to press on with plans to declare independence over the next week.

Speaking three days after his government’s unilaterally held independence referendum was marred by police violence, Carles Puigdemont said Catalans were united as never before but added he was disappointed by the king’s recent intervention.

“The king endorses the discourse and policies of the government of [prime minister Mariano] Rajoy, which have been catastrophic for Catalonia and deliberately ignore the millions of Catalans who do not think like them,” he said.

Addressing himself directly to the king, he added: “Not like this. Your decision yesterday disappointed many people in Catalonia.”

Puigdemont repeated his calls for dialogue and mediation with Madrid but said his government was still planning to take the results of the referendum to the Catalan parliament over the next few days to prepare for a declaration of independence.

“I have to represent all of Catalonia’s citizens,” he said. “On Sunday we had a referendum under the most difficult circumstances and set an example of who we are. Peace and accord is part of who we are. We have to apply the results of the referendum. We have to present the results of the referendum to parliament.”

More than 900 people were injured after Spanish police attempted to halt the vote by raiding polling stations, beating would-be voters and firing rubber bullets at crowds.

Despite the Spanish authorities’ attempts to stop the referendum, which both the government and the country’s constitutional court had declared illegal, 2.26 million of Catalonia’s 5.3 million registered voters took part. According to the Catalan government 90% of participants voted for the region to become independent.

The Spanish government was quick to respond. The deputy prime minister, Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría, said that Puigdemont had squandered an opportunity to steer the region back toward co-existence, adding: “If Mr Puigdemont wants to talk or negotiate or send mediators, he knows perfectly well what he needs to do: get back on the legal path that he should never have abandoned.”

Earlier on Wednesday the EU’s executive had called for the Spanish and Catalan governments to begin talks over the biggest political challenge Spain has faced since its return to democracy four decades ago – but said Madrid had the right to use “proportionate force” to uphold the law.

Addressing the European parliament in Strasbourg on Wednesday, Frans Timmermans, the vice-president of the European commission, said the images emerging from Catalonia were saddening but it was clear that the regional government had “chosen to ignore the law” when organising the referendum.

“Let me be clear: violence does not solve anything in politics. It is never the answer, never a solution. It can never be used as a weapon or instrument,” he said. “Europe knows this better than anywhere else … It is a duty of any government to uphold the rule of law and this does sometimes require proportionate use of force.”

Timmermans said it was “time to talk” and backed the Spanish prime minister, Mariano Rajoy, to bring the dispute to a peaceful resolution. He said the European commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, was in touch with Rajoy but stressed that the vote on Sunday was “not legal” and it was “an internal matter”.

Puigdemont and other senior Catalan politicians, including the mayor of Barcelona, Ada Colau, have called repeatedly for the EU to weigh in on the issue. “The European commission must encourage international mediation,” Puigdemont said on Monday. “It cannot look the other way any longer.”

Writing in the Guardian last week, Colau made a similar plea. “The European Union came about as a project to safeguard and guarantee our rights and freedoms,” she said. “Defending the fundamental rights of Catalan citizens against a wave of repression from the Spanish state is also the same as defending the rights of Spanish and European citizens.”

On Tuesday night King Felipe had said the Catalan authorities were attempting to break “the unity of Spain” and said their push for independence could put at risk the country’s social and economic stability.

In a rare and strongly worded television address he described the regional government’s actions as “an unacceptable attempt” to take over Catalan institutions, adding that it had placed itself outside democracy and the law.

On October 05 2017 03:49 Liquid`Drone wrote:
How different is Catalan from Spanish? more or less similar than spanish and portuguese?