|
Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action. |
On July 09 2017 17:25 MWY wrote:
She climbed on an armored vehicle of the police. What kind of mindset do you need to have to do that in a already tense situation all around the city? Obviously the police have to get her down.
That being said, a friend of mine was there and protested peacefully the whole weekend without getting interfered much and without getting hurt. According to her, this was the case in most parts of the city.
A different than 3 officers tear gassing her?
|
Germany3128 Posts
On July 09 2017 16:52 Artisreal wrote:I can only shake my head at the police for beating up a friend of mine (as well as many others) severely and not getting punished at all. Like aiming a water cannon at someone on a roof close to the border. From a layman's perspective that's attempted murder on the job. e: for a little perspective, I talk about the former protestor, not the latter. If people take violence to the streets like that, I can support the use of special units. + Show Spoiler +
How do you get the girl from the Räumungsfahrzeug? Just drive on and if she falls, injures herself or maybe dies it's her own fault? Pepperspray and arrest? The woman climbs on vehicles used to clear barricades. The alternative is obviously just to wait while rioters are happily 'playing' with fire. This reaction is 100% what she wanted when she climbed the vehicle. To go viral with the production of an anti-police photo/clip. Become some kind of Tiananmen tank girl.
If you want to see the scene in motion it's at the beginning.
+ Show Spoiler +
Defending this girl is unfair to protestors like your friend who (apparently) actually did nothing and suffered police violence.
Agreeing with everything else you said. If the protest wouldn't have gone so much out of control the predominantly opinion would now be: Policemen out of control. Luckily for the police, their behaviour got eclipsed by the idiot rioters.
|
The better for this video (it's right at the beginning).
This supports every claim made that police is escalating. Zero evidence that this vehicle was going to be used in the next minutes because theres like nothing in the way and it aint even moving.
e: but alas, I do not condone violence. On neither side.
And I do not say that she's in the right to do what she did, I consider the means of removing her from the vehicle as excessive.
|
On July 09 2017 17:41 Artisreal wrote:
The better for this video (it's right at the beginning).
This supports every claim made that police is escalating. Zero evidence that this vehicle was going to be used in the next minutes because theres like nothing in the way and it aint even moving.
e: but alas, I do not condone violence. On neither side.
And I do not say that she's in the right to do what she did, I consider the means of removing her from the vehicle as excessive.
Really?
Removing someone from a riot vehicle during a protest is excessive?
She would get removed the (roughly) same way in any other country.
|
Germany3128 Posts
On July 09 2017 17:41 Artisreal wrote:
The better for this video (it's right at the beginning).
This supports every claim made that police is escalating. Zero evidence that this vehicle was going to be used in the next minutes because theres like nothing in the way and it aint even moving.
e: but alas, I do not condone violence. On neither side.
And I do not say that she's in the right to do what she did, I consider the means of removing her from the vehicle as excessive.
How would you remove her? This was probably the safest option the police had which does not endanger anyone majorly, including her.
|
On July 09 2017 17:45 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2017 17:41 Artisreal wrote:
The better for this video (it's right at the beginning).
This supports every claim made that police is escalating. Zero evidence that this vehicle was going to be used in the next minutes because theres like nothing in the way and it aint even moving.
e: but alas, I do not condone violence. On neither side.
And I do not say that she's in the right to do what she did, I consider the means of removing her from the vehicle as excessive. Really? Removing someone from a riot vehicle during a protest is excessive? She would get removed the (roughly) same way in any other country.
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it"
|
I'm fully with you, that it probably would have been more appropriate to just try to go up and pull or down or something like that instead of using violence, since there was clearly no harm coming from her. But these are stressful situations. There are reasons why laws are quite stretchable in these situations, as it is not humanly possible to have everyone make the proper decision quickly under pressure and really, such behavior is simply provoking bad reactions.
|
Germany3128 Posts
On July 09 2017 18:19 Big J wrote:
I'm fully with you, that it probably would have been more appropriate to just try to go up and pull or down or something like that instead of using violence, since there was clearly no harm coming from her. But these are stressful situations. There are reasons why laws are quite stretchable in these situations, as it is not humanly possible to have everyone make the proper decision quickly under pressure and really, such behavior is simply provoking bad reactions.
I currently try to find a source or a guideline how police should act in this situation. There has to exist a protocol that the police has to follow in this situation somewhere. Sadly I can't really find anything.
So but wouldn't climbing up onto the vehicle be a 'danger' situation for the policemen? One shove against a policeman as long as he doesn't have save footing and you maybe have an injured policeman on your hands. Sure this woman was non violent and just an asshole but pretty sure that the police have some kind of Do and Don'ts for this exact situation. This is a honest question.
|
On July 09 2017 18:31 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2017 18:19 Big J wrote:
I'm fully with you, that it probably would have been more appropriate to just try to go up and pull or down or something like that instead of using violence, since there was clearly no harm coming from her. But these are stressful situations. There are reasons why laws are quite stretchable in these situations, as it is not humanly possible to have everyone make the proper decision quickly under pressure and really, such behavior is simply provoking bad reactions. I currently try to find a source or a guideline how police should act in this situation. There has to exist a protocol that the police has to follow in this situation somewhere. Sadly I can't really find anything. So but wouldn't climbing up onto the vehicle be a 'danger' situation for the policemen? One shove against a policeman as long as he doesn't have save footing and you maybe have an injured policeman on your hands. Sure this woman was non violent and just an asshole but pretty sure that the police have some kind of Do and Don'ts for this exact situation. This is a honest question.
I'd guess that it's a matter of personal estimation whether it is too dangerous or not. They probably can justify it somehow, because "you never know how she'd behave".
|
On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2017 17:45 Gorsameth wrote:On July 09 2017 17:41 Artisreal wrote:
The better for this video (it's right at the beginning).
This supports every claim made that police is escalating. Zero evidence that this vehicle was going to be used in the next minutes because theres like nothing in the way and it aint even moving.
e: but alas, I do not condone violence. On neither side.
And I do not say that she's in the right to do what she did, I consider the means of removing her from the vehicle as excessive. Really? Removing someone from a riot vehicle during a protest is excessive? She would get removed the (roughly) same way in any other country. From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention). How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle. I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean. We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it"
That's quite the hyperbolic statement. The reason tear gas is banned under the Geneva Convention is because during WW1 increasingly poisonous variants were used. But more importantly, the Geneva Convention is simply broadly phrased to prevent people from wriggling out and saying "this isn't a chemical weapon, it's just tear gas" if they design some chemical that makes your eyes pop out of your head.
The Geneva Conventions (and in fact, far more accurately for the case of tear gas, the CWC) are specifically written to deal with the usual lawless situation that is war, whereas putting down an unruly mob is supposedly dealt with within the confines of national law. And in fact, the use of tear gas for riot control is explicitly excluded from the CWC.
Here's some context:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/aug/26/facebook-posts/tear-gas-was-banned-warfare-1993-police-1997/
|
I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in.
On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it"
What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh.
And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants.
|
On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:
And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants.
No it's not. What the fuck is wrong with people nowadays, demanding group punishment for innocents all the time?
|
On July 10 2017 01:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:
And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants.
No it's not. What the fuck is wrong with people nowadays, demanding group punishment for innocents all the time?
Thats a matter of definition of innocence.
Many consider people, who
- against multiple warnings by the police to distance themselves from the brick throwers
- intentionally hinder police forces to get to those brick throwers
not as innocent but as enablers.
Btw, German law doesn't consider them as innocent either.
|
On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in. Show nested quote +On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it" What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh. And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants.
Yes, you have to condemn sensless violence. But from whichever side. And no matter what the fuck she was doing up there, the measures taken are simply out of proportion.
I don't see how you can wish tear gas upon someone who is doing something absolutely inconsequential. No matter whether you support what she's doing or not.
Have you ever experienced tear gas? If not, nice of you to judge.
As you don't even understand the peacful protesters, meaning you have no idea what different topics they are addressing, I suppose it's not really worth taking you seriously because it seems to me you're just in here to shit on them and say violence against "bad people" is fine.
|
On July 10 2017 02:24 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in. On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it" What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh. And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants. Yes, you have to condemn sensless violence. But from whichever side. And no matter what the fuck she was doing up there, the measures taken are simply out of proportion.
If the police does anything to remove her from the vehicle then she has some video where they used too much force. There is no "acceptable" way to remove someone who doesn't want to be removed. Protesters should remain in designated areas like they're supposed to or I have no sympathy for them. Her right to protest is not diminished at all if she can't climb on the police vehicle.
|
Germany3128 Posts
On July 10 2017 04:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2017 02:24 Artisreal wrote:On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in. On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it" What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh. And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants. Yes, you have to condemn sensless violence. But from whichever side. And no matter what the fuck she was doing up there, the measures taken are simply out of proportion. If the police does anything to remove her from the vehicle then she has some video where they used too much force. There is no "acceptable" way to remove someone who doesn't want to be removed. Protesters should remain in designated areas like they're supposed to or I have no sympathy for them. Her right to protest is not diminished at all if she can't climb on the police vehicle.
Exactly to your first part. She doesn't want to be removed because she wants this snippet of violence. The girl isn't currently angry that she got removed. She is probably happy that she got a pic that shows: 'Look we're the good guys'. If she is angry then it's because the police didn't use something like rubber pellets ( I know we don't use them in Germany) because it would have furthered her cause even more. I'm pretty sure by now that this was actually the safest and most harmless way to remove her. What do you guys want (not you, the one I quote, but for example ArtIsReal)? That they pay her to go off the vehicle?
|
glad you guys are mind reader telepaths lmao
|
Zurich15361 Posts
On July 10 2017 04:31 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2017 04:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 10 2017 02:24 Artisreal wrote:On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in. On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it" What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh. And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants. Yes, you have to condemn sensless violence. But from whichever side. And no matter what the fuck she was doing up there, the measures taken are simply out of proportion. If the police does anything to remove her from the vehicle then she has some video where they used too much force. There is no "acceptable" way to remove someone who doesn't want to be removed. Protesters should remain in designated areas like they're supposed to or I have no sympathy for them. Her right to protest is not diminished at all if she can't climb on the police vehicle. Exactly to your first part. She doesn't want to be removed because she wants this snippet of violence. The girl isn't currently angry that she got removed. She is probably happy that she got a pic that shows: 'Look we're the good guys'. If she is angry then it's because the police didn't use something like rubber pellets ( I know we don't use them in Germany) because it would have furthered her cause even more. I'm pretty sure by now that this was actually the safest and most harmless way to remove her. What do you guys want (not you, the one I quote, but for example ArtIsReal)? That they pay her to go off the vehicle?
Get up and carry her down? It's a skinny 100lb girl, is our police really such incapable that they can't deal with little girls without riot gear and tear gas?
|
On July 10 2017 14:35 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2017 04:31 TheNewEra wrote:On July 10 2017 04:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 10 2017 02:24 Artisreal wrote:On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in. On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it" What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh. And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants. Yes, you have to condemn sensless violence. But from whichever side. And no matter what the fuck she was doing up there, the measures taken are simply out of proportion. If the police does anything to remove her from the vehicle then she has some video where they used too much force. There is no "acceptable" way to remove someone who doesn't want to be removed. Protesters should remain in designated areas like they're supposed to or I have no sympathy for them. Her right to protest is not diminished at all if she can't climb on the police vehicle. Exactly to your first part. She doesn't want to be removed because she wants this snippet of violence. The girl isn't currently angry that she got removed. She is probably happy that she got a pic that shows: 'Look we're the good guys'. If she is angry then it's because the police didn't use something like rubber pellets ( I know we don't use them in Germany) because it would have furthered her cause even more. I'm pretty sure by now that this was actually the safest and most harmless way to remove her. What do you guys want (not you, the one I quote, but for example ArtIsReal)? That they pay her to go off the vehicle? Get up and carry her down? It's a skinny 100lb girl, is our police really such incapable that they can't deal with little girls without riot gear and tear gas?
Ever seen footage from ourside a Beatles concert in 1960s? Girls and young women are basically Kryptonite to the police.
|
On July 10 2017 14:35 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2017 04:31 TheNewEra wrote:On July 10 2017 04:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On July 10 2017 02:24 Artisreal wrote:On July 09 2017 19:51 TerransHill wrote:I don't understand, nor do I agree with any of the protestants, but I am not saying that everyone of them is scum. However those people who use violence, doesn't matter against whom or what, are scum, because thats how you call people whose only goal in life is to destroy the society they life in. On July 09 2017 17:52 Artisreal wrote:
From a vehicle that has no immediate use by fucking her up with tear gas (casual reminder that its use in war is banned by the Geneva Convention).
How to proceed differently I have no idea. Still if you're using water cannons for 1mil a pop you can manage to find a peaceful means of removing someone from the top of your vehicle.
I might exchange excessive for proportionate to make clear what I mean.
We're talking about the police and not some outlaws here. The bar is supposed to be high and not as low as you appear to think some protesters "deserve it" What the fuck is this girl doing up there? Just don't go up there. She fully deserves that treatment, it doesn't even look that harsh tbh. And by the way even if don't throw bricks yourself, it's still your fault when you get beaten up when you walk alongside aggressive protestants. Yes, you have to condemn sensless violence. But from whichever side. And no matter what the fuck she was doing up there, the measures taken are simply out of proportion. If the police does anything to remove her from the vehicle then she has some video where they used too much force. There is no "acceptable" way to remove someone who doesn't want to be removed. Protesters should remain in designated areas like they're supposed to or I have no sympathy for them. Her right to protest is not diminished at all if she can't climb on the police vehicle. Exactly to your first part. She doesn't want to be removed because she wants this snippet of violence. The girl isn't currently angry that she got removed. She is probably happy that she got a pic that shows: 'Look we're the good guys'. If she is angry then it's because the police didn't use something like rubber pellets ( I know we don't use them in Germany) because it would have furthered her cause even more. I'm pretty sure by now that this was actually the safest and most harmless way to remove her. What do you guys want (not you, the one I quote, but for example ArtIsReal)? That they pay her to go off the vehicle? Get up and carry her down? It's a skinny 100lb girl, is our police really such incapable that they can't deal with little girls without riot gear and tear gas?
Yeah, because that looks so much better, when three heavily armored cops brutally drag a screaming woman away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/gipfel1440_v-vierspaltig.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/gipfel1666_v-vierspaltig.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/gipfel1698_v-vierspaltig.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/gipfel2066_v-vierspaltig.jpg)
