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On July 08 2017 02:14 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2017 23:11 IgnE wrote:On July 07 2017 19:45 warding wrote:
The street is an undemocratic mechanism that also undermines the correct working of democratic institutions in developed nations. It's commonly used by strong, small interests to lobby for changes benefiting them against the greater public good (ie. specific public sector strikes). In Portugal we had particular groups (ie. subway workers) earning much more than the country average, with guaranteed jobs because they simply can decide to clog the mobility of people in Lisbon whenever they very well desire. At some point they were striking every month willy-nilly until the governments were forced to accept. That was pretty much the case with lots of public sector workers.
The trouble is that the street is also often the main resort of legitimate resistance movements against very unpopular or autocratic government policies/practices, and since it's difficult to distinguish between the two, all of them have to be tolerated. Which leaves room for what the troglodytes are doing to Hamburg right now, setting cars on fire and destroying public property.
Why is the "country average" the measure of whether they are being paid too much? Maybe the job is hard. It's clearly valuable. Debatable but warding's point is very important, street democracy is already something for the privileged. You don't see the homeless, or the immigrants or people at the real bottom of society on the streets. Street protest has always been organised by people who already have power, unionised workers, student protesters and so on.
Not being part of the most vulnerable in society ≠ being privileged
Undocumented workers do protest to get papers, and in France the biggest trade union always helps/supports them.
And yes some of the weakest can't protest, because they're isolated, because they don't have the materials means to protest, because they're too precarious, etc.
There are regularly demonstrations for housing rights—will you call protestors "privileged" because they actually have a roof above their head? Do they lose legitimacy because they might not be themselves homeless or living in inadequate housings? Don't they fight for people who can't be here for some reason?
I find it funny that the principle of representation is fine in your eyes for Chambers, but not when ordinary people do it?
Since when do students have "power"? What power exactly?
In a sense it is reactionary and goes against social justice. Are well payed, unionised workers really the people who get hit the hardest in our societies?
The people who have it really bad are best defended in institutions, street democracy nowadays is the best example of a political spectacle, which funnily enough is a Marxist idea
Yes, because those Parliaments full of rich old white males from the upper classes are known to defend so hard the homeless, the immigrants or the poorest... The social sensitivity of the US Congress, for example, is legendary.
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Pretty much all research into that topic shows that the weakest, people living in poverty, homeless people, unemployed and so on have the lowest democratic participation rates. One of the reasons why I wish we had compulsory elections. Giving up is not an option, these people deserve a voice and politicians should be forced to offer them something.
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So now I know why the BBC neglected to mention any affiliations or concerns of the G20 protesters. They can't call antifa far right so they don't bother mentioning them at all. German cultural news doesn't really filter through to the English speaking world so I hadn't registered that this phenomenon had made it there.
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On July 08 2017 03:12 TheDwf wrote:
Not being part of the most vulnerable in society ≠ being privileged
Undocumented workers do protest to get papers, and in France the biggest trade union always helps/supports them.
And yes some of the weakest can't protest, because they're isolated, because they don't have the materials means to protest, because they're too precarious, etc.
There are regularly demonstrations for housing rights—will you call protestors "privileged" because they actually have a roof above their head? Do they lose legitimacy because they might not be themselves homeless or living in inadequate housings? Don't they fight for people who can't be here for some reason?
I find it funny that the principle of representation is fine in your eyes for Chambers, but not when ordinary people do it?
Since when do students have "power"? What power exactly?
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Their is, especially in France, a privileged tone to the left. Especially the Mélenchon campaign showed this. I remember him talking about rather taking in "doctors than refugees", foreign workers "stealing the bread" of French workers, and so forth. Claiming to have overcome the "left and ride divide", is this someone who unambiguously represents the poorest in France, or someone who doesn't care as much about the 'lumpen' as he cares about the disappointed middle-class which is very much the same group that the far-right tries to cater to?
And sure not everybody on the streets shares this sentiment, but many college students like to dress up as anarchists and when they're out of uni they jump into the next best job. Do these people effectively care about the poor? For me a lot of it is dress up, I can't stand this. There's a hypocrisy to this kind of left-wing politics.
So now I know why the BBC neglected to mention any affiliations or concerns of the G20 protesters. They can't call antifa far right so they don't bother mentioning them at all. German cultural news doesn't really filter through to the English speaking world so I hadn't registered that this phenomenon had made it there.
not sure if serious but antifa movements pretty much originated here, It's a relatively new thing only in the anglosphere
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Or they were unable to tell the affiliation of the protesters because there were a large number of them and they don’t all have faction outlines like in video games?
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On July 08 2017 03:36 bardtown wrote:
So now I know why the BBC neglected to mention any affiliations or concerns of the G20 protesters. They can't call antifa far right so they don't bother mentioning them at all. German cultural news doesn't really filter through to the English speaking world so I hadn't registered that this phenomenon had made it there.
If you're implying that far-left protests involving violence are silenced, allow me to respectfully laugh.
At any rate, here on TV news violence/car fires were shown and protestors were presented as "anticapitalists".
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G20 in Hamburg: Who are the protesters?
...
So who are the anarchists?
Far-left extremism has become a feature of protests in recent years, and Hamburg - known for its squatter scene, which developed in the 1980s - is not stranger to violent protests.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40534768
It's at least on their website.
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On July 08 2017 03:38 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2017 03:12 TheDwf wrote:
Not being part of the most vulnerable in society ≠ being privileged
Undocumented workers do protest to get papers, and in France the biggest trade union always helps/supports them.
And yes some of the weakest can't protest, because they're isolated, because they don't have the materials means to protest, because they're too precarious, etc.
There are regularly demonstrations for housing rights—will you call protestors "privileged" because they actually have a roof above their head? Do they lose legitimacy because they might not be themselves homeless or living in inadequate housings? Don't they fight for people who can't be here for some reason?
I find it funny that the principle of representation is fine in your eyes for Chambers, but not when ordinary people do it?
Since when do students have "power"? What power exactly?
. Their is, especially in France, a privileged tone to the left. Especially the Mélenchon campaign showed this. I remember him talking about rather taking in "doctors than refugees", foreign workers "stealing the bread" of French workers, and so forth.
He regretted both those sentences you refer to. They were bad, and he was heavily criticized for them within the left.
But I don't see the link with calling ordinary people, possibly trade unionists, "privileged" simply because they're not completely poor/precarious?
Claiming to have overcome the "left and ride divide", is this someone who unambiguously represents the poorest in France, or someone who doesn't care as much about the 'lumpen' as he cares about the disappointed middle-class which is very much the same group that the far-right tries to cater to?
Not sure I really understand this sentence. If you're talking about the left/right divide, it's complicated. He mostly dodges the "left" label because Hollande and the PS soiled it.
He talks often about the 9 millions of poors in France; has "papers for undocumented workers" in his program; and says we have to welcome people who are already here (migrants), even if his position isn't "open borders" indeed. He had a few bad sentences but his speech doesn't appeal at all to xenophobia and/or racial resentment (literally repeated 200 times that the problem is "the banker, not the migrant"), and aims the lower classes rather than the "middle" ones. When the far-right criticizes Mélenchon, their main angle of attack is that he's a "mad immigrationist" ... They are the ones who spout all the time their demagogic "anything for them is less for you" narrative.
And sure not everybody on the streets shares this sentiment, but many college students like to dress up as anarchists and when they're out of uni they jump into the next best job. Do these people effectively care about the poor? For me a lot of it is dress up, I can't stand this. There's a hypocrisy to this kind of left-wing politics.
Yes, there are insincere pricks who simply pretend then forget.
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Merkel just realised that she's going to have at least four more years of this. If leadership in Russia and Germany continues Merkel and Putin will still be standing there in 30 years
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I wonder what Putin is actually saying though. We will build a wall across Poland and you will pay for it?
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Maybe he's explaining what he would do to those protesting anti-globalists in Russia and Merkel is like "ah, wish we could do that here"
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"No, No Angela I'm telling you those are only Russian tourists in the Ukraine!"
Also the situation in Hamburg is really bad this year, these people need to stop settings things on fire
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There is a pretty good photo of her talking to Trump with her face in her hands. I feel for her.
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Something for everyone to laugh at:
Austrian Greens
- Their youth organization did not want to support their student organization. Party leaders throws them out. Other Greens are pissed about the drastic measures. All sorts of quarreling going on about that.
- Party leader Glawischnig steps down (for various reasons).
- A double leadership is established.
- The leaders of the thrown out youth organization partner with communists. The base of that youth organization heavily critizes that move.
- Internal elections of the federal party to form the list placement for the elections have Peter Pilz, one of their most popular, hard-left, islam-critic, anti-corruption activists eliminated. He now openly thinks about creating his own leftist party, which at the moment polls at 5%, but rumors of conservative polls see him at up to 10% with hard to predict participation of non-voters in favor of him.
- In regional elections for the list placement refugees (who can participate in this internal Green elections) were used to eliminated candidates that the corinthian party leaders did not want to see placed highly. Party investigations ongoing.
- Today, a rather popular protege from said Peter Pilz, a son of turkish migrant and former Green member, who has been bullied out of the party for his very rough tone towards islam has joined the "new", opened up conservative list (but not the party) of the foreign minister.
In short this means for me, if Peter Pilz doesn't form his own list for September I'm going to vote for the Neoliberal party which seems to be the far most reasonable between far-righ populists with Nazi origins, far-right populists with Austro-fascist origins, a socialdemocratic party that is imploding over the question whether it is ok to form a coalition with the Nazi populists, and a Green party that is imploding for whatever idiotic reasons.
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On July 08 2017 04:56 Nyxisto wrote:
"No, No Angela I'm telling you those are only Russian tourists in the Ukraine!"
Also the situation in Hamburg is really bad this year, these people need to stop settings things on fire
BBC says that only a small proportion of protestors are violent. Unless you are saying that people usually set things on fire in Hamburg.
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On July 08 2017 05:48 Big J wrote:
Something for everyone to laugh at:
Austrian Greens
- Their youth organization did not want to support their student organization. Party leaders throws them out. Other Greens are pissed about the drastic measures. All sorts of quarreling going on about that.
- Party leader Glawischnig steps down (for various reasons).
- A double leadership is established.
- The leaders of the thrown out youth organization partner with communists. The base of that youth organization heavily critizes that move.
- Internal elections of the federal party to form the list placement for the elections have Peter Pilz, one of their most popular, hard-left, islam-critic, anti-corruption activists eliminated. He now openly thinks about creating his own leftist party, which at the moment polls at 5%, but rumors of conservative polls see him at up to 10% with hard to predict participation of non-voters in favor of him.
- In regional elections for the list placement refugees (who can participate in this internal Green elections) were used to eliminated candidates that the corinthian party leaders did not want to see placed highly. Party investigations ongoing.
- Today, a rather popular protege from said Peter Pilz, a son of turkish migrant and former Green member, who has been bullied out of the party for his very rough tone towards islam has joined the "new", opened up conservative list (but not the party) of the foreign minister.
In short this means for me, if Peter Pilz doesn't form his own list for September I'm going to vote for the Neoliberal party which seems to be the far most reasonable between far-righ populists with Nazi origins, far-right populists with Austro-fascist origins, a socialdemocratic party that is imploding over the question whether it is ok to form a coalition with the Nazi populists, and a Green party that is imploding for whatever idiotic reasons.
Same situation as in France until 2009, no viable left sucks. 
Any chance the right forms a coalition with social-democrats instead of the far-right?
Also you can vote KPÖ instead of NEOS (?) if your Greens fail lol
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On July 08 2017 06:01 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2017 04:56 Nyxisto wrote:
"No, No Angela I'm telling you those are only Russian tourists in the Ukraine!"
Also the situation in Hamburg is really bad this year, these people need to stop settings things on fire BBC says that only a small proportion of protestors are violent. Unless you are saying that people usually set things on fire in Hamburg.
well naturally it's only a small minority given the large number of protesters, but they've actively started to destroy stores and at this point even the local population is fed up which is quite an achievement. It's basically just the black block smashing stuff
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On July 08 2017 06:02 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2017 05:48 Big J wrote:
Something for everyone to laugh at:
Austrian Greens
- Their youth organization did not want to support their student organization. Party leaders throws them out. Other Greens are pissed about the drastic measures. All sorts of quarreling going on about that.
- Party leader Glawischnig steps down (for various reasons).
- A double leadership is established.
- The leaders of the thrown out youth organization partner with communists. The base of that youth organization heavily critizes that move.
- Internal elections of the federal party to form the list placement for the elections have Peter Pilz, one of their most popular, hard-left, islam-critic, anti-corruption activists eliminated. He now openly thinks about creating his own leftist party, which at the moment polls at 5%, but rumors of conservative polls see him at up to 10% with hard to predict participation of non-voters in favor of him.
- In regional elections for the list placement refugees (who can participate in this internal Green elections) were used to eliminated candidates that the corinthian party leaders did not want to see placed highly. Party investigations ongoing.
- Today, a rather popular protege from said Peter Pilz, a son of turkish migrant and former Green member, who has been bullied out of the party for his very rough tone towards islam has joined the "new", opened up conservative list (but not the party) of the foreign minister.
In short this means for me, if Peter Pilz doesn't form his own list for September I'm going to vote for the Neoliberal party which seems to be the far most reasonable between far-righ populists with Nazi origins, far-right populists with Austro-fascist origins, a socialdemocratic party that is imploding over the question whether it is ok to form a coalition with the Nazi populists, and a Green party that is imploding for whatever idiotic reasons. Same situation as in France until 2009, no viable left sucks. Any chance the right forms a coalition with social-democrats instead of the far-right? Also you can vote KPÖ instead of NEOS (?) if your Greens fail lol
I don't think so, the ÖVP and SPÖ have been blockading each other for years, waiting for their chances to go without the other. The SPÖ is pretty much in open riot against ever working with the conservatives again and the ÖVP has been pretty openly admitted they want to form a coalition with FPÖ, especially since with their new leader the ÖVP and FPÖ have swapped 10%. The only actual interesting constellation is that the incredibly powerful FPÖ propaganda leader is quite openly in favor of a FPÖ-SPÖ government, since the last time the FPÖ worked with the conservatives they got demolished and I believe he rather wants to focus on nationalism, pensioneers and working-class voters, otherwise they will probably lose a lot of that support again. That coalition however does not seem to even get a majority at the moment with conservatives on the rise.
KPÖ is weird and I actually don't believe that much in a strong state (in a free market system). I'm really just someone who believes Karl Marx is what happens when you are an actual liberal, yet his systematic solution to get over the capitalist forces that are killing freedom, or kill the planet or both, was just as blue-eyed as the blind capitalist belief in market forces is, or typical conservative extend and pretend idiocracy is. I have my own very unorthodox political/philosophical beliefs, they just happen to collide with very leftist parties the most but are quite different in many aspects. 
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Meanwhile Cyprus solution talks failed again. Nationalistic nerve is still solid on Greece part.
Good thread.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RectangularVigorousCoypu-size_restricted.gif)
