EPTLets organise some strike,, YAY... What do you want? EVERYTHING BETTER.
Well... Fuck you.
User was temp banned for this post.
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 908
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Velr
Switzerland10842 Posts
Lets organise some strike,, YAY... What do you want? EVERYTHING BETTER. Well... Fuck you. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 07 2017 06:28 TheDwf wrote: 1) What you put in the "extremist" box depends on your starting assumptions... which are not shared by everybody. Very easy to mislabel radical options as "extremist" to delegitimize them. 2) When your political system is stable and your centre-left to centre-right pendulum gets 65 to 75% of the votes, "fair enough". But what happens when it represents only 30-40% of the votes? If you decide that the rest should be erased because "extremist," well... Yes, extremism can be mislabeled but I don't think that I have been guilty of it. There needs to be a baseline in the system to make pluralism between everybody else possible. For example the French society is clearly secularist, nobody would tolerate religious extremism in the public space. That is a requirement for tolerant society to function, not a mislabel or intolerant. I'm also not saying that anybody should be erased, but everybody must work within the parliamentary system constructively. Taking conflict to the streets, which some political movements in France (other places too obv.) actively advocate for is undemocratic. I'm also not just talking about pure numbers. I'm not saying "let X percent govern and screw the rest", I'm saying that what is key is the attitude towards political opponents. Parties that de-legitimize opposition, are illiberal (in the broad sense) can themselves not be legitimate part of the political process. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I'm also not saying that anybody should be erased, but everybody must work within the parliamentary system constructively. Taking conflict to the streets, which some political movements in France (other places too obv.) actively advocate for is undemocratic. The fact that a legal and/ or executive system approves and defends a technical implementation on how you try to represent public opinion as sufficiently democratic does not make one undemocratic if he/she holds a different opinion. What matters are the facts and factually your wannabe representative system is in deep shit if you are lacking democratic legitimization from large parts of you society. Democratic founders have tried all sorts of mechanics to deal with these problems, referendums, the right to take to the streets or compulsory voting. Democracy is hard work. And we are failing it more and more. We have millions that have given up and are not represented at all, millions with party consensus that are hardly represented because we have all sorts of mechanics in place to prevent actual representation and majority opinions that are absolutely not implemented. Maybe Putin is right and democracy does not work, but seeing what we are doing to ourselves and our systems to make sure we are not representing properly, I don't want to give up on it yet. But most Western democracies obviously need reforms and their societies a new, democratic spirit. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On July 07 2017 09:46 Nyxisto wrote: Yes, extremism can be mislabeled but I don't think that I have been guilty of it. There needs to be a baseline in the system to make pluralism between everybody else possible. For example the French society is clearly secularist, nobody would tolerate religious extremism in the public space. That is a requirement for tolerant society to function, not a mislabel or intolerant. I'm also not saying that anybody should be erased, but everybody must work within the parliamentary system constructively. Taking conflict to the streets, which some political movements in France (other places too obv.) actively advocate for is undemocratic. I'm also not just talking about pure numbers. I'm not saying "let X percent govern and screw the rest", I'm saying that what is key is the attitude towards political opponents. Parties that de-legitimize opposition, are illiberal (in the broad sense) can themselves not be legitimate part of the political process. Taking the conflict to the streets works decently in fact, the government often takes its final decision depending upon popular support for the cause. The movement dies by itself without popular support. You also have to take into account that syndicates are less powerful and less popular than in Germany so it's easy to dismiss them even when they bring good points (which they don't do that often). So yes we have a fair amount of useless protests but also some which yields good results. Add on top of that our not so reprsentative congress and the street is a legitimate way to express one's opinion. On July 07 2017 08:36 KlaCkoN wrote: However didnt Macron promise to introduce some more proportionality to the system? That seems to me be the single most democratic reform he could pursue. Indeed, that's a very good decision from the government. | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
The trouble is that the street is also often the main resort of legitimate resistance movements against very unpopular or autocratic government policies/practices, and since it's difficult to distinguish between the two, all of them have to be tolerated. Which leaves room for what the troglodytes are doing to Hamburg right now, setting cars on fire and destroying public property. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On July 07 2017 08:36 KlaCkoN wrote: Well in france the centre-left through centre right 'consensus' got like 64% of the vote in the legislative elections and 50% in the first round presidential. And there is a pretty good argument to be made that a bunch of people who would have preferred PS to FI voted FI anyways for tactical reasons. So this talk about the far left being a social majority doesnt ring very true to me. What does strike me as undemocratic is the complete absence of parliamentary representation for the nationalist right. However didnt Macron promise to introduce some more proportionality to the system? That seems to me be the single most democratic reform he could pursue. In the présidentielle, the centre-left to centre-right got Macron's 24% + whatever part of Fillon's 20% belongs to the centre-right; only half of Fillon voters voted Macron in the second round, so let's say 10%. The central space currently weighs ~30-35% in France. Hamon wasn't positioned at the centre-left. Fillon wasn't positioned on the centre-right either, his speech and program put him at the radical right. The massive abstention (52%) and the differential demobilization distort the picture for the législatives… PS + PRG + EM + MODEM + UDI + half of LR (hypothesis) + misc. left/right = ~55% of the 48% of expressed votes… which got over-represented in the Assemblée. Yes, ~20% of the FI vote in the presidential was tactical, but I don't know why you bring this? Why do you talk about the far-left? It weighs 1-2%, I am aware that it's not majority? The FI isn't far-left. When I talk about the “social majority” it doesn't mean “the left”. Macron said he would introduce proportional, yes, but we don't know how much exactly. I think the government's spokesman recently said 20 to 25% … Well, see the result: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCNaqJbXcAIS0M_.jpg) Projection before the second round vs full proportional vs 25% proportional. Can't say the difference is extremely meaningful between the first and the third… The only change with the current situation would be the FN having a group. It's welcome but wait and see… Dominant parties don't abandon advantageous positions, and redefining constituencies is extremely sensitive stuff. (For some reason, Macron also wants to suppress a third of the parliamentarians...) On July 07 2017 09:46 Nyxisto wrote: I'm also not saying that anybody should be erased, but everybody must work within the parliamentary system constructively. Taking conflict to the streets, which some political movements in France (other places too obv.) actively advocate for is undemocratic. I'm also not just talking about pure numbers. I'm not saying "let X percent govern and screw the rest", I'm saying that what is key is the attitude towards political opponents. Parties that de-legitimize opposition, are illiberal (in the broad sense) can themselves not be legitimate part of the political process. There is nothing undemocratic in street protest. It's one of the most basic democratic rights ever. Of course you want things to remain in the Parliament when you're majority there… and when you're not, you fight with what you have left. Even the right, which is even more legitimist than you, does that. You can be as ''constructive'' as you want in the Parliament, when you're minority you can't pass anything unless the majority wants it too. That's life. I also don't get why you oppose street protest to parliamentary work… Whenever there's a street movement, the ''corresponding'' political parties naturally try to represent it in the Assemblée. No one is calling for an insurrection… As for the labour bill, it's extremely clear that Macron is not willing to listen to the opposition; not even to his own majority actually, since he's asking his own députés to enable him to write the law all by himself. Extraordinary session + accelerated procedure + decrees: does it sound like someone who wants to talk and negotiate with the opposition? Macron is there to ram through his bills. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18207 Posts
On July 07 2017 19:45 warding wrote: The street is an undemocratic mechanism that also undermines the correct working of democratic institutions in developed nations. It's commonly used by strong, small interests to lobby for changes benefiting them against the greater public good (ie. specific public sector strikes). In Portugal we had particular groups (ie. subway workers) earning much more than the country average, with guaranteed jobs because they simply can decide to clog the mobility of people in Lisbon whenever they very well desire. At some point they were striking every month willy-nilly until the governments were forced to accept. That was pretty much the case with lots of public sector workers. The trouble is that the street is also often the main resort of legitimate resistance movements against very unpopular or autocratic government policies/practices, and since it's difficult to distinguish between the two, all of them have to be tolerated. Which leaves room for what the troglodytes are doing to Hamburg right now, setting cars on fire and destroying public property. I disagree. Democracy is not just going to vote. It's being an active participant in policy making. How one should go about that is a harder question to answer, but taking to the streets is definitely not wrong. Mass protests can lead to course corrections by an elected government that are entirely democratic. However, sometimes the government's job is to make unpopular decisions. Having lickspittle politicians whose only aim is to ensure they get elected the next cycle is a great way to ensure the country is run badly. And it is then the government's job to persist in their chosen policy despite mass protests. The great thing about democracy is that if it turns out that policy was indeed a mistake, the politicians who implemented it are voted out the next cycle and the next batch makes changes to fix what's wrong. You see that right now in the USA. Despite all the protests against Obamacare, people like the alternatives the Republicans are proposing even worse, with protests at town halls and senators getting inundated with angry letters. They are therefore not repealing and replacing Obamacare, although it is quite clear that Obamacare in its current format is a stopgap measure that needs reforming. So on the one hand we have the implementers of Obamacare (a bad policy) housted from government. On the other hand, we have democracy in action with (successful) protests against people trying to implement an even worse healthcare policy. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 07 2017 19:45 warding wrote: The street is an undemocratic mechanism that also undermines the correct working of democratic institutions in developed nations. It's commonly used by strong, small interests to lobby for changes benefiting them against the greater public good (ie. specific public sector strikes). In Portugal we had particular groups (ie. subway workers) earning much more than the country average, with guaranteed jobs because they simply can decide to clog the mobility of people in Lisbon whenever they very well desire. At some point they were striking every month willy-nilly until the governments were forced to accept. That was pretty much the case with lots of public sector workers. The trouble is that the street is also often the main resort of legitimate resistance movements against very unpopular or autocratic government policies/practices, and since it's difficult to distinguish between the two, all of them have to be tolerated. Which leaves room for what the troglodytes are doing to Hamburg right now, setting cars on fire and destroying public property. Why is the "country average" the measure of whether they are being paid too much? Maybe the job is hard. It's clearly valuable. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Overpaid compared to skills required is not a hard concept. It sort of is though, at least in my opinion. Like why have nursing assistants and kindergarten teachers traditionally made way less money than factory workers? By most metrics I can think of nursing and teaching are more varied and 'challenging' jobs. I think social expectations play a lot into what we think is 'reasonable' compensation for given work. As an example, garbage collectors in Sweden have tradiontally always been paid very well, as a kid I thought this was silly, like "why do they get paid so much, it's clearly a dirty and 'easy' job, shouldn't they be poor?" Now the new CEO for the garbage collecting agency in sthlm apparently agrees with kid klackon and was like wtf, why would I pay these people so much. And wanted to cut their salaries between 500 and 1k Euros a month. They started striking and all got fired after one day. So at this point I guess the 'market' will set new salaries, assuming they can even find people before all of Stockholm starts to smell lol. But the point is for decades and decades these salaries were high just because they had always been. Similarly nursing assistant salaries are low because they have always been. I don't think 'overcompensation' is an easy concept at all. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:50 KlaCkoN wrote: It sort of is though, at least in my opinion. Like why have nursing assistants and kindergarten teachers traditionally made way less money than factory workers? By most metrics I can think of nursing and teaching are more varied and 'challenging' jobs. I think social expectations play a lot into what we think is 'reasonable' compensation for given work. As an example, garbage collectors in Sweden have tradiontally always been paid very well, as a kid I thought this was silly, like "why do they get paid so much, it's clearly a dirty and 'easy' job, shouldn't they be poor?" Now the new CEO for the garbage collecting agency in sthlm apparently agrees with kid klackon and was like wtf, why would I pay these people so much. And wanted to cut their salaries between 500 and 1k Euros a month. They started striking and all got fired after one day. So at this point I guess the 'market' will set new salaries, assuming they can even find people before all of Stockholm starts to smell lol. But the point is for decades and decades these salaries were high just because they had always been. Similarly nursing assistant salaries are low because they have always been. I don't think 'overcompensation' is an easy concept at all. thank you for typing out what I wanted to say. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:50 KlaCkoN wrote: It sort of is though, at least in my opinion. Like why have nursing assistants and kindergarten teachers traditionally made way less money than factory workers? By most metrics I can think of nursing and teaching are more varied and 'challenging' jobs. I think social expectations play a lot into what we think is 'reasonable' compensation for given work. As an example, garbage collectors in Sweden have tradiontally always been paid very well, as a kid I thought this was silly, like "why do they get paid so much, it's clearly a dirty and 'easy' job, shouldn't they be poor?" Now the new CEO for the garbage collecting agency in sthlm apparently agrees with kid klackon and was like wtf, why would I pay these people so much. And wanted to cut their salaries between 500 and 1k Euros a month. They started striking and all got fired after one day. So at this point I guess the 'market' will set new salaries, assuming they can even find people before all of Stockholm starts to smell lol. But the point is for decades and decades these salaries were high just because they had always been. Similarly nursing assistant salaries are low because they have always been. I don't think 'overcompensation' is an easy concept at all. I don't see the point in your post where you see that it is a hard concept. I am in broad agreement with your post. Some jobs are overpaid and some are underpaid for the skills and inclination required. Though factory worker may not be the best example. The point of comparison being those of similar, higher and lower skills. The only point of contention I can see is where there can be disagreement is whether the general rate for the population is set too high or too low. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 07 2017 23:11 IgnE wrote: Why is the "country average" the measure of whether they are being paid too much? Maybe the job is hard. It's clearly valuable. Debatable but warding's point is very important, street democracy is already something for the privileged. You don't see the homeless, or the immigrants or people at the real bottom of society on the streets. Street protest has always been organised by people who already have power, unionised workers, student protesters and so on. In a sense it is reactionary and goes against social justice. Are well payed, unionised workers really the people who get hit the hardest in our societies? The people who have it really bad are best defended in institutions, street democracy nowadays is the best example of a political spectacle, which funnily enough is a Marxist idea | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
I think every major city in the the world should have a public transpiration application day in the middle of the week where they stop running a single part public transportation. Let people fend for themselves for one day so they really understand the value of public transportation. + Show Spoiler + This idea is terrible, they should not do this | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Overpaid compared to skills required is not a hard concept. Yes, but it's rather irrelevant since it's not the only factor. We don't pay people merely on how hard their job is. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On July 08 2017 01:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Overpaid compared to skills required is not a hard concept. It's a market economy. If you want to be paid by skill you might want to look into the concept of a "centrally planned economy" so that you can be the moral dictator that chooses prices based on the "skill" you believe someone has, not based on the market position they can acquire.. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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