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European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 913

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Although this thread does not function under the same strict guidelines as the USPMT, it is still a general practice on TL to provide a source with an explanation on why it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion. Failure to do so will result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 10 2017 17:49 GMT
#18241
On July 11 2017 02:30 warding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2017 02:14 Plansix wrote:
On July 11 2017 02:06 Acrofales wrote:
On July 11 2017 01:50 Plansix wrote:
Protest and civil disobedience is one of the most modern ways of bringing about change. Citizens of the EU and US owe many of our rights to that form of protest. And sometimes you get blasted with tear gas during a protest.

Not sure throwing bricks at the police is something I agree with as a "modern way of bringing about change". Civil disobedience for sure. Picketing, absolutely. Human chains, standing on armored vehicles, etc. are all great shows of protest. Setting cars on fire, trashing shop windows and throwing bricks at people... no.

By modern, I mean in the 20th and 21st century. Workers rights, the right for women to vote and to on were obtain through civil and not so civil protest. Our generation does not have much experience with the latter because our governments/leaders knew never to let it get to that point.

And likely because democratic institutions are functioning a bit better and societies have better secured individual liberties.

When there are appropriate means to voice concerns and engage the political system democratically - is there still room for uncivil protests?

It depends on if the concerns are being addressed at a reasonable pace and if the people who are protesting are feel they have accomplished their goal. Civil disobedience is a declaration of intent. Getting arrested shows you are willing to go have control of your body/movement taken away for your views. When full blown riots happen(not half assed groups of 20 people smashing things that modern media calls a riot), it is because a massive number of people have decided they no long care about what will happen to them after.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
July 10 2017 18:13 GMT
#18242
It wasn't a riot, it was an armed gang trashing a city. As for '20 people', you're out by an order of magnitude.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
July 10 2017 18:16 GMT
#18243
My answer to the hypothetical question was also hypothetical and not meant to reference the specific protest.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-11 05:23:52
July 11 2017 05:23 GMT
#18244
I really don't think civil disobedience and rioting are the same thing, or even the same class of thing.
lastpuritan
Profile Joined December 2014
United States540 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-12 02:17:03
July 12 2017 02:14 GMT
#18245
Let's have an honest moment and see if those people in the Hamburg were in Turkey protesting against the Turkish State, global media would be full of those cliché coverages that narrate the police/state brutality of peaceful protesters with the bloodiest pictures they could find.. It wasn't as brutal as in TR but at least protesters weren't throwing molotovs on every chance, they still dealt some harm but mediocre harm compared to Turkish leftists like this fluffy cute one. https://www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2017/05/30/gezi-parks-girl-with-red-foulard-dies-fighting-in-ypg-ranks-in-raqqa

Ask yourselves, do you think German police would keep their last cool if these type of vandalism occured several times a year, I don't think so. It does not whitewash the extra brutality but surely causes a trauma for police forces, which I'll admit no way Turkey is planning to cure. It has become a relatively dangerous cat&mice game for both sides.

-

15th July is coming, coup anniversary. If you still have doubts if Islamist cleric Gulen was behind it, here a good quick read for starters. https://medium.com/@15thJulyCoup/who-was-behind-the-15th-july-coup-in-turkey-19f75a5771c5

{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 12 2017 03:04 GMT
#18246
The European Court of Human Rights announced Tuesday that it has upheld a Belgian ban on wearing the full-face veil in public. The law, passed nationwide in June 2011, had come under fire for allegedly violating a series of protections set out by the European Convention on Human Rights.

The unanimous decision held that the ban — which, in the court's words, specifically barred "the wearing in public of clothing that partly or totally covers the face" — aimed to "guarantee the conditions of 'living together' and the 'protection of the rights and freedoms of others.' "

The court also determined that the ban was "necessary in a democratic society."

The case in question, Belcacemi and Oussar v. Belgium, was brought by a Belgian national and a Moroccan national who said the ban violated — among other things — their rights to privacy and freedom of religion. As Muslims who choose to wear niqabs, full black veils that cover the face everywhere but the eyes, they alleged the Belgian law kept them from expressing their religious convictions.

Their complaint states the law also kept one of the women at home, fearful of potential repercussions from wearing her veil in public. The other woman removed her veil in public, according to the court.

But Belgian politicians have argued the ban, which carries potential punishments that range from fines to jail time, does not restrict the freedoms of Muslim women.

Rather, lawmakers such as Daniel Bacquelaine argued that it supports Muslim women. "To forbid the veil as a covering is to give them more freedom," Bacquelaine told reporter Teri Schultz in 2010, as the country was moving forward with the legislation.

"If we want to live together in a free society, we need to recognize each other."

That argument has been echoed elsewhere in Europe, as other countries have recently adopted similar laws. Austria was the latest country to ban or partially ban the wearing of niqabs, joining a group that also includes France, Bulgaria and the Netherlands.

Last month, the Norwegian government proposed its own ban on burqas and niqabs in schools and universities.

Still, as the court noted Tuesday — both in Belcacemi and Oussar v. Belgium and another, similar case concerning Belgian municipalities — "there was currently no consensus in such matters" among European countries.

It is this lack of consensus that further swayed the court to side with Belgium, giving the country a "broad margin of appreciation" with regard to its lawmakers' decision-making process.

"In adopting the provisions in question," the European Court of Human Rights says, "the Belgian State had sought to respond to a practice that it considered to be incompatible, in Belgian society, with social communication and more generally the establishment of human relations, which were indispensable for life in society."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
July 12 2017 06:47 GMT
#18247
Got it, till 2011 Belgium wasn't a democratic society, so much we can logically say for sure from

The court also determined that the ban was "necessary in a democratic society."


I can't express how much I hate jurisprudence. It's like a bunch of apes piling contradictionary shit on and on and people then have to live by arbitrary interpretations that are based on "who-can-make-a-judge-remember-which-law-or-case".
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 14 2017 16:21 GMT
#18248
Macron, le président des riches:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


You can check our Prime Minister's interview in the Financial Times if you have access… Apparently quite frank on actual intents.

The OFCE looked into Macron's tax cut plan, and calculated that the 10% wealthiest would get 46% of the tax cuts. According to them, the 1% richest (the 280k wealthiest households) “particularly benefit from them”. (The idea, as usual, is that cutting taxes will make France more "attractive" and "competitive".)

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

From the lowest (left) to the highest (right) decile; above 0, how many euros per year and per household each decile would gain from the announced measures.

For the highest decile, notice in red the ~700 euros coming from a reduction on a specific wealth tax, exclusively paid by households whose estate exceeds 1.3 millions of euros (with lots of assets not taken into account…). Then there's the impact of his “30% flat tax” on capital incomes.


Morality:

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


An austerity plan was announced for this year with 4.5 billions of cuts distributed between all ministries. Highest contributor is the Ministry of Defence with 850 millions of euros in cuts, announced the very day before the 14 juillet, when the army parades in Paris… The Chief of the Defense Staff got mad and protested, saying he would not accept to be “screwed” [or “fucked”—he used a sexual word]. Macron publicly blamed protest voices within the army in a fairly rough way, basically saying “I am your chief, shut up”. Macron has promised to rise the Defence budget to 2% of the GDP by 2025. The army protests against underfunding for years, especially as Hollande played the war chief a bit everywhere and overextended.

The law authorizing Macron to rewrite large parts of the Labour Code all by himself was voted yesterday (13/07) by 270 vs 50 votes. Standing ovation from the EM députés at the end of the vote. We'll know the exact result in a month.
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6263 Posts
July 14 2017 16:30 GMT
#18249
What's the OFCE?
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 14 2017 16:38 GMT
#18250
On July 15 2017 01:30 RvB wrote:
What's the OFCE?

French Observatory of Economic Conjectures, some university research center which evaluates public policies. Think it's classified as neokeynesian/moderate left? Not sure.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
July 14 2017 17:49 GMT
#18251
Gotta level your taxation system with Germany's before you can get your integrated treasury.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 16 2017 11:36 GMT
#18252
Macron is as obnoxious in foreign policy as he is in domestic politics...

- Lectures everyone about "being complacent to Putin" during the campaign... then invites him to Versailles with all pomp.
- Criticizes his competitors for not asking Bashar al-Assad's departure beforehand... then claims that he sees no legitimate successor to Bashar al-Assad, so, well, he's here to stay for a while.
- Invites Donald Trump for the Bastille Day despite his withdrawal from the Paris Agreement.
- Totally ignorant and racist sentence about "African women having too many children" as the cause of African under-development.
- Now invites Netanyahu, a war criminal, leader of a colonial power and a far-right government to commemorate the 75 years of the Vel d'hiv roundup. Complete confusion, and a huge historical, political and moral mistake as the Israeli government instrumentalizes this memory to legitimize his own crimes.

Macron even declared during the ceremony that "We will cede nothing to messages of hate. We will cede nothing to anti-Zionism, for it is the reinvented form of antisemitism". In the continuity of Valls' line, the usual stupid amalgam between the Israeli State and Jews, regurgitating both the Israeli and antisemitic propaganda... Also good job importing a foreign conflict in the context of a purely national commemoration… Blargh...

Such an insult to all the Jews who oppose Israël's colonial/racist policies.
bardtown
Profile Joined June 2011
England2313 Posts
July 16 2017 13:32 GMT
#18253
Can you give me an example of their racist policies? I've been under the impression - and maybe I'm mistaken because I am not very familiar with the situation - that Israel is a fairly successful example of a multiracial society.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28738 Posts
July 16 2017 14:06 GMT
#18254
every person I know who has been to israel has described it as totally apartheid. which might be slightly lacking in nuance for all I know, but considering their settlement policies / road blocks / walling racist is not controversial in the least, to me.
Moderator
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 16 2017 14:26 GMT
#18255
My term of choice would be that Israel is a first world theocracy in the middle of a perpetual war zone. Every Jewish person I have ever known who went there came back quite different - but it's not the easiest place to live. It was not to my liking.

I firmly believe that 95% of the shit that Israel gets out of Europe is just covert anti-Semitism masked in hypocritical "human rights" bullshitting. God knows there are plenty of countries more worthy of being criticized than Israel. But that said, I do personally dislike a lot of what Israel stands for - it's a manifestation of religion over reason in many ways.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28738 Posts
July 16 2017 14:35 GMT
#18256
On July 16 2017 23:26 LegalLord wrote:
I firmly believe that 95% of the shit that Israel gets out of Europe is just covert anti-Semitism masked in hypocritical "human rights" bullshitting.


This is complete bullshit. Don't think you've ever posted a sentence on these forums I disagreed more with, tbh. If you wanna criticize leftist europeans for trying to combine idealistic foreign policy attitudes with staunch opposition towards Israel while turning a blind eye to worse human rights transgressions from China ('because Israel claims to be a western democracy thus we can expect more from them'), then I don't really have a counter argument to that, because it's absolutely hypocritical. But Europeans do not favor Palestine over Israel because we like Muslims more than we like Jews. That is complete and utter nonsense.
Moderator
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
July 16 2017 15:04 GMT
#18257
And I in turn have zero doubt that that would be an assertion that you or any similarly inclined European would so vehemently disagree with. But I stand by that interpretation in full. The kind of attitude that European "human rights" folks have shown with regards to Israel can be described as nothing short of obsessive. I have my own problems with Israel - but anyone who refuses to see things from their rather troubled perspective is a damn fool. The kind of focus that is put into trying to pin things on Israel is an unfortunate mix of obsessive focus on a specific nation and a selective willingness to ignore context.

I hope you wouldn't deny that antisemitism is quite pervasive throughout Europe. I've seen enough Europeans willing to deny that but it isn't hard to see that any such denial is complete objective bullshit. A selective willingness to have a focus on Israel is absolutely motivated by antisemitism. One of the absolute flimsiest denials of that I've seen is the focus on "I'm not antisemitic, I'm anti-Israel" when literally every argument made against Israel looks very much like one made against Jews - and a straight sub-in of words makes more sense than the original.

It's not the only hypocrisy of European "human rights" folks - but damn is it a big one.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
July 16 2017 15:17 GMT
#18258
On July 16 2017 22:32 bardtown wrote:
Can you give me an example of their racist policies? I've been under the impression - and maybe I'm mistaken because I am not very familiar with the situation - that Israel is a fairly successful example of a multiracial society.

You can't be such a thing when your country has been colonizing another one for decades.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html [the link about discriminatory laws in the article is broken, but can be found here]
http://www.timesofisrael.com/four-ways-jews-and-arabs-live-apart-in-israeli-society/
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18846 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-07-16 15:28:19
July 16 2017 15:26 GMT
#18259
The Likud Party and its constituent conservative social caste lie at the center of the political problems facing Israel and its horrible treatment of most minorities. Acknowledgment of and support for the Zionist Union and other Israeli political groups generally in opposition to Likud seems like par for the course in terms of working towards a moral resolution.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28738 Posts
July 16 2017 15:29 GMT
#18260
Saying that Israel has 'the right to defend themselves' is fair enough. I think they frequently go way too far and that a considerable degree of their need to defend themselves is a consequence of their own policies, but I'm not actually trying to start an israel-palestine discussion here. I acknowledge that the pro-israel camp has legit arguments, and I acknowledge that my own knowledge of the conflict is not extensive enough for me to give a nuanced portrayal of it. I also acknowledge that China's treatment of Tibet is worse than Israel's treatment of Palestine.

However, saying that 95% of the shit europeans throw at israel is because europeans hate jews is completely ridiculous. We criticize Israel because of how they treat Palestine, and we dislike muslims far more than we dislike jews.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


This alone makes your argument fall completely flat. Further, leftist europeans are the ones who criticize Israel the loudest - but there's almost no overlap between this group and traditional european antisemitism. The real reason why europeans are so critical towards Israel and not towards more oppressive regimes is that Israel to some degree defines itself as one of 'the west' and to some degree is only allowed to continue acting in a way we perceive as horrible oppression because of the continued support of 'the west'. I think it's totally fair to criticize the hypocrisy of Europeans who call for the boycott of Israeli goods but who have no such qualms with buying Chinese, but this still has nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism. European leftists see this as another version of south african apartheid and want to combat it in the same way that was defeated. That also didn't happen because we hate the british or the dutch.

I mean if you said that '10% of the shit europeans fling at israel is caused by antisemitism' I wouldn't really bat an eye, but 95% isn't even in the neighborhood of a truthful number.
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