EPTEuropean Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 914
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
I'll grant that european muslims tend to both lean left and have antisemitic attitudes, but those voices aren't prevalent in the media at all. Contributes towards jewish kids being bullied in schools and 'jew' being used as a pejorative in much the same way 'gay' is, and I don't want to say 'this is irrelevant', but in the broader context of European anti-israeli sentiments, it absolutely is. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Israel has a right to defend itself - and I would use a somewhat stronger statement: Israel has every right to face the ugly realities of war and wartime measures to the extent that it is necessary to ensure the nation's long-term future is secure. I don't know if you would agree with the latter statement, but I'm sure you could at the very least sympathize with it. All that said, I cannot say that I particularly like Israel - as I said, it's a first world theocracy stuck in a perpetual war zone, a triumph of religion over reason. Certainly, the reasons for founding Israel where it was founded made sense at the time, and the world made a necessity of the existence of a Jewish independent state, and that context is oft-ignored in the greater scheme of things. At the same time that doesn't give them a free pass to do whatever they want, and it's absolutely right to call them out for overstepping their boundaries at times. Few will admit to being antisemitic - more than disliking Muslims that is the best way to paint yourself as the enemy of European society. You would have to be the most naive fool in the world, though, to genuinely believe something like "only 24% of Poles have an unfavorable view of Jews in their country." You might as well go ask people how many of them voted against/for Obama because of race, you would have about the same level of honesty. Israel has a severe lack of petty powerful allies on their side to make it harder to criticize their faults. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and the like? You criticize them in any meaningful way, they cut diplomatic ties. But the US, Israel's most important ally? They're a bit more reasonable. And Israel on its own is not an important enough trading partner to matter as much as the oil men. China is. There is probably more anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe than anti-Jewish sentiment. But the latter is far more targeted and irrational. That manifests itself in a persistent desire to push and push and push against Israel. Not so much against their opponents, who explicitly want to "drive Israel into the sea." But against a group of fairly reasonable, if aggressively militarized, first world theocrats. It doesn't take much to see that the attention given to Israel is at least an order of magnitude disproportionate to actual fault. Human rights concerns are far too often dominated by political expedience, leading to the worst kind of holier-than-thou hypocrisy. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
You, however, decide to analyze this and reach the conclusion that '95% of the shit that Israel gets out of Europe is just covert anti-Semitism masked in hypocritical "human rights" bullshitting.'. This makes no sense in the context where the reason why Israel is criticized is that their treatment of Palestine, a country occupied by Muslims, who by your own admission are certainly disliked more than Jews are. If you wanna contest that only 16% of Europeans have a negative impression of jews, that's fair. I think it's totally plausible that people are unwilling to even anonymously state that they have an opinion they feel is publicly unacceptable. But then the same poll finds that 43% of Europeans have a negative impression of Muslims. Either we're in a situation where disliking muslims is so acceptable that everyone who has a negative impression of them is willing to state that they do, or we have a situation where that figure should increase by a comparable amount as the anti-jew figure should have. Doesn't really change anything. Based on the numbers, I'd say that anti-muslim attitudes being a reason for european support of Israel has far more basis in reality than saying that anti-Israeli attitudes are grounded in anti-semitism. I don't actually think that's the case though, I think it's way more complex than that. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On July 17 2017 01:00 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'll admit that I'm not too familiar with Israel debates in the UK. But how is the american left infested with antisemitism? I've virtually never seen that. I've seen plenty examples of antisemitism from the extreme segments of the alt-right, from the american left I mostly see either indifference or appropriate criticism towards Israel, frequently voiced by secular jews.. I'll grant that european muslims tend to both lean left and have antisemitic attitudes, but those voices aren't prevalent in the media at all. Contributes towards jewish kids being bullied in schools and 'jew' being used as a pejorative in much the same way 'gay' is, and I don't want to say 'this is irrelevant', but in the broader context of European anti-israeli sentiments, it absolutely is. Except that it's not because there are people like Linda Sarsour in the US and Malia Bouattia in the UK. Bouattia is/was (idk) the head of the National Union of Students in the UK, and it is not incidental that student unions are so trigger happy in boycotting Israeli goods when they have absolutely no interest in human rights abuses in any other country. The hypocrisy that you notice has its roots in bigotry. Most people involved just see injustice and don't like it, but the political activists who give this particular situation such a unique level of attention are not only incidentally interested. We also had a huge scandal about antisemitism in the Labour party in the UK (and ~90% of Jews vote for our right of centre party). That's not to say that the far right aren't just as guilty in the US where they actually exist. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
We don't disagree that there is a lot of hypocrisy in the "human rights" crowd, or that the hatred of Israel is disproportionate to reality. The problem seems to be mostly with the 95%, or in other words the magnitude of the hypocrisy at hand. I can see why you wouldn't like that - it would make it seem like it's an attempt to dismiss genuine human rights concerns as just covert antisemitism. But I do think that such a blanket statement is accurate in light of just how strongly European human rights advocates seem to be selectively interested in human rights based on some very selective views of the world. And I hope you wouldn't deny that Israel gets a disproportionate amount of that criticism. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
On July 17 2017 01:21 bardtown wrote: Except that it's not because there are people like Linda Sarsour in the US and Malia Bouattia in the UK. Bouattia is/was (idk) the head of the National Union of Students in the UK, and it is not incidental that student unions are so trigger happy in boycotting Israeli goods when they have absolutely no interest in human rights abuses in any other country. The hypocrisy that you notice has its roots in bigotry. Most people involved just see injustice and don't like it, but the political activists who give this particular situation such a unique level of attention are not only incidentally interested. We also had a huge scandal about antisemitism in the Labour party in the UK (and ~90% of Jews vote for our right of centre party). That's not to say that the far right aren't just as guilty in the US where they actually exist. I'm not gonna comment too much on the UK stuff. I don't have much knowledge myself. I do however think that the 'boycott Israel but not China' sentiments find their rationale in the 'turning south africa into a pariah state was how we ended apartheid', not 'we dislike jews and their banking ways and don't want to contribute to their further accumulation of wealth'. Essentially, China can afford to ignore european human rights protests. South Africa could not, and we're hoping that Israel can't, either. I do recall reading something about Corbyn being supportive of Hamas or whatever, so maybe there's something to it. Spoilering this as it's kinda irrelevant to the EU and has a bunch of quotes. + Show Spoiler + However, you bringing up Linda Sarsour as evidence of how the 'US left is infested with antisemitism' leads me to believe that you're actually just being hyperbolic. I had actually heard of her name before, but quickly wikied her now. Firstly, I'm very skeptical of the idea that one person constitutes an infestation when describing 'the left' side of the political spectrum in a country of 325 million people. Even if she was a fervent actual nazi, I'd have problems accepting this. However, instead of support for Hitler, I see stuff like.. 'After a Jewish cemetery in St. Louis, Missouri was vandalized in an apparent anti-Semitic incident in February 2017, Sarsour worked with other Muslim activists to launch a crowdfunding campaign to raise money to repair the damage and restore the gravesites. More than $125,000 was raised, and Sarsour pledged to donate any funds not needed at the cemetery to other Jewish community centers or sites targeted by vandalism. She said the fundraising effort would "send a united message from the Jewish and Muslim communities that there is no place for this type of hate, desecration, and violence in America". St. Louis's United Hebrew Congregation Senior Rabbi, Brigitte S. Rosenberg, whose congregants have family members buried in the vandalized cemetery, called the campaign "a beautiful gesture" ' And stuff like 'Sarsour has stated that she does not support either the Palestinian militant group Hamas or the Palestinian Authority, preferring nonviolent Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation policies.[non-primary source needed] She told New York station NY1: I do believe that Israel has the right to exist [...] I mean I wouldn't want — I mean where are they gonna go? That's why I want a one-state solution. I think we can all live together in one state with peace and justice and equality for all. Sarsour has described herself as a supporter of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel. She has stated that members of her extended family have been arrested on accusations of supporting Hamas, but said they were not necessarily charged with crimes and that their situation was "just the reality of Palestinians living under military occupation" I really can't see anything from this lady that warrants the description 'anti-semite' (wanting to boycott Israel alone does not constitute this) and even if I did, I wouldn't understand how she constitutes an infestation. Frankly, you bringing her up, to me, gives considerably less credence to your claims about the UK, ones that I would otherwise be inclined to accept due to my own ignorance on the subject. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
On July 17 2017 01:40 LegalLord wrote: It's absolutely far more acceptable to admit anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe than anti-Jewish sentiment. Anti-Muslim sentiment is merely "racist," a term in Europe that has been contorted to the point that it has lost all meaning. But to support antisemitism is to stand by the ugly reality that the vast majority of Europe was, just half a century ago, complicit in the mass murder known as the Holocaust - either through active participation, or by failing to do what needed to be done to stop it from happening. That said, the anti-Muslim sentiment number is probably also understated, though to a lesser degree. We don't disagree that there is a lot of hypocrisy in the "human rights" crowd, or that the hatred of Israel is disproportionate to reality. The problem seems to be mostly with the 95%, or in other words the magnitude of the hypocrisy at hand. I can see why you wouldn't like that - it would make it seem like it's an attempt to dismiss genuine human rights concerns as just covert antisemitism. But I do think that such a blanket statement is accurate in light of just how strongly European human rights advocates seem to be selectively interested in human rights based on some very selective views of the world. And I hope you wouldn't deny that Israel gets a disproportionate amount of that criticism. If you give a number like 95%, that means 'virtually all'. My impression is that 'virtually none' of the european opposition towards the Isreali occupation of Palestine is grounded in anti-semitic attitudes. I'll grant that this particular impression is largely based around my own anecdotal experience. But I know a lot of leftists and quite some human rights activists. If I evaluate say, my 50 closest anti-israeli acquaintances, I'd argue that approximately 0 of them are anti-semitic. With the exception of muslims - who comprise like 5% of the population in the EU, people who actually hate jews also hate muslims, usually even more so. And thus anti-semitism simply does not work as an explanation for why europeans would favor a muslim country in a conflict against a jewish country. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
This critique of anti-semitism actually comes from within the pro-Israelian far left too, who consider the anti-globalist, anti-capitalist views to be 'structurally anti-Semitic'. Think of criticism of the Rothschilds or Soros, coming both from the far-left and right allegations of 'global capital' and shadowy leaders controlling the world and so forth. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
I would say that another ugly reality of European "human rights" idealism is political expediency. Europeans are shameless opportunists, rarely willing to criticize missteps by important allies, or even worse, Europeans within the EU. Israel is an easy target in that regard. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28738 Posts
On July 17 2017 02:04 bardtown wrote: What you hear about Linda Sarsour will depend entirely on which sources you read. I'm interested (genuinely) if you have any source for saying that Europeans favour Palestine in this conflict, by the way? Hard to find really up to date info, and hard to find 'favors palestine' rather than 'opposes the Israeli occupation and settlement policies', and I'm also kinda busy.  . But here are a couple links and key excerpts:https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/05/18/bbc-poll-international-attitudes-toward-israel-plummet/ France 20% positive towards Israeli influence on the world stage, 65% negative. Germany and the UK 16-68 and 16-69, Spain 12-74. https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/assets/pdf/israel-international/European_Attitudes_June_2002.pdf That one is old (2002), but the tendency from the link above it is that support towards Israel has been declining. Page 11 has good data; + Show Spoiler + Only 28 percent of European respondents view Israel favorably. 14 percent of Europeans say they sympathize with the Israelis in the current Palestinian Israeli conflict. 41 percent of Europeans do not think that Israel wants to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians. 38 percent of European respondents say that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is similar to South Africa’s treatment of blacks during apartheid. 60 percent of the respondents feel that Israel’s use of military force against the Palestinians has been excessive. By a margin of 7 percentage points, 27-20, Europeans think that the Israelis are more at fault for the current violence than the Palestinians. In contrast, respondents in America believe that the Palestinians are more responsible than Israel for the recent escalation in violence by a margin of 42-17. 42 percent of Europeans do no think that Israel is an open and democratic society. 62 percent of Europeans believe that the recent outbreak of violence against Jews in Europe is a result of anti- Israel sentiment and not traditional anti-Semitic or anti- Jewish feelings. I'll also grant that some sources indicated higher anti-semitic values than the pew source I quoted earlier. But I never really meant to question that anti-semitism continues to be a problem in Europe. I'm if anything arguing that LL has it backwards - anti-semitism is fueled by hatred towards Israel, not that hatred towards Israel is fueled by anti-semitism. | ||
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bardtown
England2313 Posts
On July 17 2017 02:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hard to find really up to date info, and hard to find 'favors palestine' rather than 'opposes the Israeli occupation and settlement policies', and I'm also kinda busy. . But here are a couple links and key excerpts:https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/05/18/bbc-poll-international-attitudes-toward-israel-plummet/ France 20% positive towards Israeli influence on the world stage, 65% negative. Germany and the UK 16-68 and 16-69, Spain 12-74. https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/assets/pdf/israel-international/European_Attitudes_June_2002.pdf That one is old (2002), but the tendency from the link above it is that support towards Israel has been declining. Page 11 has good data; + Show Spoiler + Only 28 percent of European respondents view Israel favorably. 14 percent of Europeans say they sympathize with the Israelis in the current Palestinian Israeli conflict. 41 percent of Europeans do not think that Israel wants to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians. 38 percent of European respondents say that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians is similar to South Africa’s treatment of blacks during apartheid. 60 percent of the respondents feel that Israel’s use of military force against the Palestinians has been excessive. By a margin of 7 percentage points, 27-20, Europeans think that the Israelis are more at fault for the current violence than the Palestinians. In contrast, respondents in America believe that the Palestinians are more responsible than Israel for the recent escalation in violence by a margin of 42-17. 42 percent of Europeans do no think that Israel is an open and democratic society. 62 percent of Europeans believe that the recent outbreak of violence against Jews in Europe is a result of anti- Israel sentiment and not traditional anti-Semitic or anti- Jewish feelings. I'll also grant that some sources indicated higher anti-semitic values than the pew source I quoted earlier. But I never really meant to question that anti-semitism continues to be a problem in Europe. I'm if anything arguing that LL has it backwards - anti-semitism is fueled by hatred towards Israel, not that hatred towards Israel is fueled by anti-semitism. Thanks for looking. "By a margin of 7 percentage points, 27-20, Europeans think that the Israelis are more at fault for the current violence than the Palestinians. In contrast, respondents in America believe that the Palestinians are more responsible than Israel for the recent escalation in violence by a margin of 42-17." That seems to be the most interesting statistic. I feel like it's very hard for third parties to take a solid stance on this issue and it's probably a healthy sign to see an even split. As for the pew research - I'm always happy to see research showing the UK to be amongst the least racist countries in Europe after all the bullshit media spin about Brexit. As for the chicken and egg problem, I think it goes both ways and it's quite hard to tell with individual cases. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10137 Posts
On July 17 2017 02:03 Nyxisto wrote: This critique of anti-semitism actually comes from within the pro-Israelian far left too, who consider the anti-globalist, anti-capitalist views to be 'structurally anti-Semitic'. Think of criticism of the Rothschilds or Soros, coming both from the far-left and right allegations of 'global capital' and shadowy leaders controlling the world and so forth. That's not antisemitism. What the fuck is going on in this thread where people can even think that "european left is antisemitic" for asking Israel to be more respectful towards human rights. But i guess i have to give it to you Legal, good job. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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schaf
Germany1326 Posts
I think that Israel and the Jewish people are not properly separated in most people's minds, which influences the numbers. Don't you have a sentiment against Russians for supporting this president and his policies? Does that count as being anti-Russian? Another factor could be that people just don't really know many jews. This is different for each of us of course but in my life I have heard someone say “I'm Jewish“ maybe... five times? I'm trying to say that it is easier to hate something that you don't know. Personal story time: near the school I went to was a Jewish culture centre and they had this nice big building with synagogue and kindergarten. But they had cameras everywhere and big black screens surrounding the playground - for security reasons obviously but it gives you this impression of “this is our place, you're not welcomed here.“ I don't criticise them for doing that, I guess some idiots (my guess would be neo-Nazis btw) threatened them and understandably they had to shut themselves off. I think I'm trying to say two things: isolation breeds mistrust and damn These ***holes who would dare threatening a place with children. In the end, maybe antisemitism is more prevalent here than I would have thought. It's really a shame. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11735 Posts
On July 17 2017 15:56 schaf wrote: Another factor could be that people just don't really know many jews. This is different for each of us of course but in my life I have heard someone say “I'm Jewish“ maybe... five times? I'm trying to say that it is easier to hate something that you don't know. I think a big reason for this is that people in Germany simply don't talk about religion a lot, though. It is quite possible that a lot of people that you meet are jewish and you never figure it out. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
I'm not denying a big part of Israelis are also disgusted by their government's actions and that some vote with fear in mind. I also agree they have a multicultural society and the situation of Arabic Israelis is not that different from the migrant's one in Europe.We just would like them to stop stealing lands, turning water on and off when they want and let the Palestinians do their business etc etc. I repeat it again, a lot of Israelis also think their government should change their strategy, it's just that they elected a far right government but it's far from representing their whole population like Trump does not represent all Americans. Here is a link of Israelis' opinion : www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org So the Israelis against their country's politics are also anti semitic? | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1950 Posts
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